Sorcerer - is Zenimax killing the class on purpose? [PVE]

Nijjion · January 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

I find it ironic in the same post you say "Let's wait," and then afterward question why Standard has been changed.

I think that sums up all the posts telling sorcs to be patient and wait.

That's easy to explain, if that's been said and for certain happening, we don't have to speculate you see... the other stuff hasn't been released or said anywhere so we can't base anything on it.

XEVENEX · January 2015

● Fix crystal fragments so that instant cast does not require us to modify our weave timing. (Currently you will lose DPS if you replace a crushing shock with a frags proc due to a long animation lock.)

● The reflective scales nerf is not enough. You can't cast 4 projectiles in 4 seconds so this changes nothing 1v1 against a DK.

● Make our DPS with staves on par with other classes.

● Give us a tool to help with stamina sustain

● FORGET about pets!

Valencer · January 2015

Out of curiosity, which Sorcerer skills have been nerfed since launch? All I can think of is Bolt Escape and the Storm Atronach's hidden ability to taunt (removed).

XEVENEX · January 2015

Valencer wrote: »

Out of curiosity, which Sorcerer skills have been nerfed since launch? All I can think of is Bolt Escape and the Storm Atronach's hidden ability to taunt (removed).

1) Warlock rings are pretty much nonexistent now. (vr12)
2) Pulsar can be blocked as of 1.6.
3) Hardend ward was broken for a long time. (You couldn't refresh it)
4) Frags instant proc is still broken.
5) Reflective scales completely neuters us.
6) Destruction heavy attacks didn't restore magika vs blocking targets until yesterday's patch.
7) Our crit based heal is useless in PvP.

I've only been playing for 3 months and thats just what I can remember.

kieso · January 2015

why don't they just make reflective scales like bolt escape? loss of majicka regen and double the cost if cast within an X amount of time.

Aeratus · January 2015

Valencer wrote: »

Out of curiosity, which Sorcerer skills have been nerfed since launch? All I can think of is Bolt Escape and the Storm Atronach's hidden ability to taunt (removed).

The above post by Xevenex is about PVP, rather than PVE. There hasn't been any nerfs to sorcs specifically.

For a rationalized explanation of why sorc is lagging in PVE, you have to look at the history of balance in PVE dps.

DKs have been ahead of sorcs in PVE dps since launch. Nothing has changed to this day. In fact, DK has been nerfed since launch. However, the amount of sorc complaint threads have increased since launch, so this isn't the explanation.

Magicka NB has been known to be ahead of magicka sorcs in dps since around five months ago. The only difference now is that after the nerf to resto staff, magicka NBs have to use crushing shock rather than funnel health in some ranged-only circumstances to exceed magicka sorcs in dps. However, sorcs didn't take issue with this back then, because there were not that many NBs who played magicka builds, and sorcs were too busy playing along in the stick-and-dress crowd laughing at the low dps of templars and stamina NBs.

So I think the reason for the recent sorc complaint threads is due to the rise of stamina dps, which allows templars to easily exceed the dps of magicka sorcs. This makes sense, because most of the sorcs that are complaining now are the magicka ones.

Exstazik · January 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJMayVolLuU

Semfim · January 2015

Just a a little input. Admitedly I don't run trials, but i do a load of PVP and I feel a lot more comfortable with my magicka sorc tank in cyro than with my bow/dw NB... and my sorc is vr1 and the NB vr14!!! But I guess thats because of play style.. i dont really go around measuring DPS.

That said, you can't really think you know what will come out of 1.6. It's not even on PTS!! They said they will change crit surge but not the exact way it will change. Also, they said pet sorcs were doing the most damage OVERALL in the damage tests, not just sorcs. Bottom line is so much changing the game will appear new, and none of you can predict whats going on at ZOS unless you work there. Just as an example, to what extent will Bound Armor be the go to skill for tanks in a new armor rating system?

Yell all you like after 1.6 hits PTS, or just analyse classes for their play styles, not numbers.

XEVENEX · January 2015

That DK is terrible, and so is the Sorc.

Khivas_Carrick · January 2015

Derra wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I am almost 110% positive that you guys are over exaggerating the perceived issue here. Sorcs perform a little under par but FAR from terrible or as bad as you are all making it out to be.

And hey man, Templars have gotten the short straw for awhile now, and in trade off for an increase to our caster DPS we're losing out on a rather useful tank skill, so it's a bit of an even trade there.

Just relax my sorcerer friends, you'll all be fine.

I think the problem most sorcerer players encounter is that they rolled the class as a magic wielding dps character. The fact that nightblades and dragonknights both outperform them in that regard since release of the game (by a large margin one might add) is what offends most people (edit: i guess the class just does not live up to its name).

I don´t think most players who rolled the templar did that with the thought of being a dps but either being something like a paladin (tank heal hybrid?) or a full healer.
Templars are good tanks and the best healers in the game. Sorcerers are third in terms of magica dps and only able to achieve that by using a skill that is not even class specific. I don´t think you can compare both classes in that regard.

Actually a lot of Templars did exactly that in mind, rolling one with the idea of a paladin (holy damage dealer) in mind, wanting to go pewpew lazerz at everything while wielding a large weapon or as a sun mage.

Kinda didn't live up to the name there either

themizario · January 2015

Thread should be closed. @ZOS_AlanG‌

Derailed into a nerf DK wings or nerf DK's in general. I play DK and Sorc, I have no problems fighting DKs soooo many abilities that don't reflect. Seriously.

I think Sorc's wanting wings nerfed even more then the incoming nerf want to spam crystal frag and nothing else. Literally.

Shunravi · January 2015

themizario wrote: »

Thread should be closed. @ZOS_AlanG‌

Derailed into a nerf DK wings or nerf DK's in general. I play DK and Sorc, I have no problems fighting DKs soooo many abilities that don't reflect. Seriously.

I think Sorc's wanting wings nerfed even more then the incoming nerf want to spam crystal frag and nothing else. Literally.

Seems that way, does it?

SFBryan18 · January 2015

Are their any abilities in the other three classes that disappear when you swap weapons? Are their any abilities in the other classes that charge double for using it twice? How about any self healing abilities that can be interrupted? These are real question that I am asking since I don't know, but the sorcerers best abilities have all been gimped.

Homm · January 2015

themizario wrote: »

Thread should be closed. @ZOS_AlanG‌

Derailed into a nerf DK wings or nerf DK's in general. I play DK and Sorc, I have no problems fighting DKs soooo many abilities that don't reflect. Seriously.

I think Sorc's wanting wings nerfed even more then the incoming nerf want to spam crystal frag and nothing else. Literally.

Read the *** title. Nobody cares about PVP here.

Same to others - please focus on how bad sorc is on PVE not how good are other classes on PVP.

daemonios · January 2015

When only top players with very specific gear/skill/pot combos can do (barely) enough dps as sorc for veteran trials, while other classes can get by with less, that tells me there's a problem.

Truth is, 99% of sorc class skills are simply ignored. Nobody uses them at all. Fixing pets may help some, but again will force all sorcs into one single viable build. What we need is for our class skills to be examined and fixed so that they can be used in an end-game viable build.

AshTal · January 2015

Sorcs are currently crap. I know they claim it will change, in PvP with the most common class being a DK every thing we cast just comes back at us. Our damage is lower than other classes and as said bolt escape while once being great is useless if you actually plan to use it to fight, its only use is getting back to a keep as long as it only takes 3 or 4 to get their and then hide for 30 seconds waiting for mana to recover.

I was really looking forward to being a summoner but the pets die in accidental damage (I know this should be fixed in 1.6), their damage is terrible, the twilight heal almost never hits because powerful mobs / players run through our health so quickly by the time it thinks about casting we are dead.

Other than being the cool spell caster character nothing to really make a Sorc worth playing.

Darkonflare15 · January 2015

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I am almost 110% positive that you guys are over exaggerating the perceived issue here. Sorcs perform a little under par but FAR from terrible or as bad as you are all making it out to be.

And hey man, Templars have gotten the short straw for awhile now, and in trade off for an increase to our caster DPS we're losing out on a rather useful tank skill, so it's a bit of an even trade there.

Just relax my sorcerer friends, you'll all be fine.

I think the problem most sorcerer players encounter is that they rolled the class as a magic wielding dps character. The fact that nightblades and dragonknights both outperform them in that regard since release of the game (by a large margin one might add) is what offends most people (edit: i guess the class just does not live up to its name).

I don´t think most players who rolled the templar did that with the thought of being a dps but either being something like a paladin (tank heal hybrid?) or a full healer.
Templars are good tanks and the best healers in the game. Sorcerers are third in terms of magica dps and only able to achieve that by using a skill that is not even class specific. I don´t think you can compare both classes in that regard.

Actually a lot of Templars did exactly that in mind, rolling one with the idea of a paladin (holy damage dealer) in mind, wanting to go pewpew lazerz at everything while wielding a large weapon or as a sun mage.

Kinda didn't live up to the name there either

Funny, Night blades were suppose to be sneaking characters that use magic for assassination or sneaking but most people wanted to play using stamina builds but were not successful because of the lack stamina skills in the class and the abilities not synergize with weapon builds.

Since the class abilities were magic base and most of the weapon skills were stamina base. You either had to make full on magic base or hybrid to be somewhat successful. This was going on while the class stealth skill keeps switching on and off. Works sometimes and then never work.

Nightblades only got better using stamina when they raise the softcaps, gave better gear bonus, improve medium armor and weapon skills; however their stealth skill still does not work right so they have started using other builds to be useful. With softcaps being remove and the champion system adding passives that will increase dps in broad ways. I serious doubt people would be complaining about sorcerers being least powerful class.

So at least Sorcerers were useful at least once. I remember plenty of people talking about how the Dks and Sorcerers were the easy classes and every person who was fed up being a Nightblade reroll to become one, while Templars complain about no magic resource regeneration. Also at least you have a better chance for you skills to be better improve by update 6. I serious doubt Dark cloak will ever by fixed because how ZOS does not want the skill to be god mode even though reflective scales been like that for a long time. So they are trying to make the skill balance but it still does not work right. Since every class has their short comings now. So I think is the perfect time to revamp skills hence update 6.

Cuyler · January 2015

I could give two [snip] about pets!

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

XEVENEX · January 2015

Cuyler wrote: »

I could give two [snip] about pets!

This. Any kind of "set and forget" ability is crap, especially when its a damn flappy bird, dinosaur, and a smeagol.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Shunravi · January 2015

So then, why did you choose the pet class?

Cuyler · January 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

So then, why did you choose the pet class?

I assumed (incorrectly) that the sorcerer was a traditional elemental caster with some really cool dark magic.

Turns out anyone with a destro staff is a better elemental caster than a sorc and dark magic is disappointing/borderline useless.

Storm calling looked promising but turns out that too has only 3 skills worth using, 2 of which are highly situational. Basically sorcs have 1 skill that I would call a "foundation skill", aka Surge.

Do you even sorc?

Samadhi · January 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

When a Sorcerer is bolting to escape, SpAmbush will begin to fail; with the cast time on the skill, the range hiccups and it does not fire, and then it is quickly no longer possible to keep up.

All a NB ambusher has to do is blockcast and she has a cheaper more damaging method of pursuit that does not tank her magicka regen. As for "hiccups," try to bolt escape if a rock just happens to be in your path...

Blockcasting does not increase skill range, so Ambush will still fail against an escaping Sorcerer even when block cast.
Ambush has issues if a rock is in your path as well, that problem is not unique to Streak. Have experienced it on both my Nightblade and my Sorcerer.

Blockcasting prevents the stun from streak which is necessary to chase a sorc with gap closers. If people are having trouble using gap closers to catch a bolt-escaping sorcerer, then they are doing it wrong. I would not have a problem of other classes using their gap closers to catch a sorc, if the resources required to do so were commensurate with what the sorc must spend

The stun on Streak is not what prevents Ambush from working, the range and the cast time on Ambush are. It is entirely possible to have a Nightblade block the stun and still be able to break range more quickly than Ambush can cast.
If you are focusing on the stun from Streak as being your impetus of escape, it is now clearly comprehensible why you are having issues escaping from a Nightblade spamming this skill.

As advice from one Sorcerer to another:
Ambush has only 22 yards range and almost a full second cast time; moving beyond the skill's range before the cast time completes will cause the skill to fail, leaving the Nightblade standing where they are. Use these limitations to your advantage.
If a Nightblade is spamming Ambush on you while you are Streaking back and forth through a group, break off and re-engage later; lead a few members of the group away from their herd in the process and fight them individually.
Stop over-extending your resources.

XEVENEX · January 2015

facemace · January 2015

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Actually a lot of Templars did exactly that in mind, rolling one with the idea of a paladin (holy damage dealer) in mind, wanting to go pewpew lazerz at everything while wielding a large weapon or as a sun mage.

Kinda didn't live up to the name there either

I wanted to make a templar that was spell damage based, a bit tanky, and would wear down opponents with dawns wrath... But I had to abandon the idea when I realized that every single dawns wrath ability is overpriced, underpowered, blatantly broken, or all of the above.

Add to that that they (DW) are not even all fire dmg for no apparent reason, so do not all synergize with elemental weakness, and I just decided to go fish.

Homm · January 2015

Cuyler wrote: »

I assumed (incorrectly) that the sorcerer was a traditional elemental caster with some really cool dark magic.

Turns out anyone with a destro staff is a better elemental caster than a sorc and dark magic is disappointing/borderline useless.

Storm calling looked promising but turns out that too has only 3 skills worth using, 2 of which are highly situational. Basically sorcs have 1 skill that I would call a "foundation skill", aka Surge.

Do you even sorc?

Print and pin to your foreheads ZOS.

Mumyo · January 2015

Homm wrote: »

So what about other classes? DK - best dps, best tank, also saw him doing pretty good healing (wtf?) - Zenimax favourite. Temp - best healing, very good tank, after next patch should be also a very good dps. NB - almost as good dps as DK, good tank, OP on PVP (afaik).

A plead to Zenimax - please let every sorc respec to a proper class and just delete this from the game if you are not gonna support it, OR make a total revamp of Sorc and make him a proper DPS like he deserves. He can't tank, he can't heal, NB own's on PVP - at least let sorc do proper DPS on PVE.

You dont even know anything about the templar changes.
Btw. The Sorc can heal and can tank...
You should concider facing the truth. You are not smart enough for your class.

Also seems like u have no idea of pvp but u risk calling the NB OP.
People like u screw this game, u are simply not a good player and want Zenimax to fix that via buffing ur class.
Maybe u just ask a good Sorc how to play... i met many good in PvP and some in PvE aswell but the good ones seem very rare.
If u are not smart enough play another class roll another one

Homm · January 2015

Mumyo wrote: »

Homm wrote: »

So what about other classes? DK - best dps, best tank, also saw him doing pretty good healing (wtf?) - Zenimax favourite. Temp - best healing, very good tank, after next patch should be also a very good dps. NB - almost as good dps as DK, good tank, OP on PVP (afaik).

A plead to Zenimax - please let every sorc respec to a proper class and just delete this from the game if you are not gonna support it, OR make a total revamp of Sorc and make him a proper DPS like he deserves. He can't tank, he can't heal, NB own's on PVP - at least let sorc do proper DPS on PVE.

You dont even know anything about the templar changes.
Btw. The Sorc can heal and can tank...
You should concider facing the truth. You are not smart enough for your class.

Also seems like u have no idea of pvp but u risk calling the NB OP.
People like u screw this game, u are simply not a good player and want Zenimax to fix that via buffing ur class.
Maybe u just ask a good Sorc how to play... i met many good in PvP and some in PvE aswell but the good ones seem very rare.
If u are not smart enough play another class roll another one

Teach me. Oh wait, you don't play sorc right? Being mediocre for you might be enough, and yes, sorc is mediocre in everything. He is not good at tanking or healing, and he migh be called good in dpsing only when being compared to mediocre NB's and DK's. I can make constant 900-1k on bosses anywhere (without hunter or pots or other buffs) which for you is probably great.. but not for a DK making 1.5k+. I want end game contect not vet dungs.

Cuyler · January 2015

@ZOS please just remove summoning from sorcs already and give us an ice/fire skill line or something.

I even suggest keeping summoning as a dark brotherhood skill line instead for when that get released. It makes way more sense there as part of the zombies, skeletons, daedra, aka necromancy etc.

Shunravi · January 2015

Cuyler wrote: »

@ZOS please just remove summoning from sorcs already and give us an ice/fire skill line or something.

I even suggest keeping summoning as a dark brotherhood skill line instead for when that get released. It makes way more sense there as part of the zombies, skeletons, daedra, aka necromancy etc.

They are not likely to change the class to what you want it to be simply because you misunderstood what the class was about. They have their own plans for the class.

And we have not as of yet seen the full changes planned for 1.6. There may be some other way sorcs will be better.

Cuyler · January 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

@ZOS please just remove summoning from sorcs already and give us an ice/fire skill line or something.

I even suggest keeping summoning as a dark brotherhood skill line instead for when that get released. It makes way more sense there as part of the zombies, skeletons, daedra, aka necromancy etc.

Shunravi wrote: »

They are not likely to change the class to what you want it to be simply because you misunderstood what the class was about.

Misunderstood? right...cause every other sorc here misunderstood as well. It's more like what @ZOS intended the skill lines to be NOONE uses, because why?

Because anyone who uses those sorc skills can't even come close to competing in the role (damage) that sorc is now limited too. Your pointed remark is lost in translation here considering most sorcs have the same issue. If enough of us agree here it's not a misunderstanding, but indeed, bad design.

Shunravi wrote: »

They have their own plans for the class.

Obviously...

Shunravi wrote: »

And we have not as of yet seen the full changes planned for 1.6. There may be some other way sorcs will be better.

Don't hold your breath...last Live episode I remember them say "we're happy with sorcs right now, pets are currently top dps in tests, we need to dial that back".....wtf?!