Are people missing the point of the champion system?

Bloodfang · January 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

Despair9 wrote: »

Honestly we don't know yet, how the Enlightment shall work. For all that we know you might get the Enlightment only for 1 hour if you haven't logged in to the game for 10+ hours.

Lets say the most hardcore players are not getting any Enlightment Bonus:

Average 15 hours per day (105 hours per week) = 960 days playtime / 2.63 Yrs
Average 10 hours per day (70 hours per week) = 1440 days playtime / 3.94 Yrs

Well, we don't know the details, but the intent is a lot more than something like the "Rested Bonus" over at World of Warcraft.

They were talking about getting Enlightenment as you went about your daily play, not as something you would collect only when you were offline. Specifically, they mentioned the player auction in AD as something that players could do that would collect Enlightenment, if I heard them correctly.

The intent seems to be that it would be no problem to get it, which means to me that most people will have it.

I am also of the impression that Enlightenment is something the Player gets, not the character. It may not matter what character you play.

Well we are about to see and test soon, hopefully tomorrow!

Faugaun · January 2015

Despair9 wrote: »

Yes Champion System will be a far worse grind than Veteran System. But only for those that will actually "grind" it.

Everyone else that will just play the game, and be happy with the points they're getting for "doing everything they would anyway", they won't even feel the need to swap between the CP UI every 5 secs like all the min/maxers.

The funny thing though is, how they reduced points from 14.400 to 3.600. Yep 4x less. I'm pretty sure, they'll keep on expanding them anyway, so we'll get to 14.400 at some point.

3600 Points = 600 days playtime / 1.64 years
14.400 Points = 2400 days playtime / 6.57 years

I thought 1 hour of game time is approximately equal to one cp?

My math: 3600/24 = 150 days of play time and 14,400 = 600 ....its still more than I will ever see I promise that.

Bloodfang · January 2015

Faugaun wrote: »

Despair9 wrote: »

Yes Champion System will be a far worse grind than Veteran System. But only for those that will actually "grind" it.

Everyone else that will just play the game, and be happy with the points they're getting for "doing everything they would anyway", they won't even feel the need to swap between the CP UI every 5 secs like all the min/maxers.

The funny thing though is, how they reduced points from 14.400 to 3.600. Yep 4x less. I'm pretty sure, they'll keep on expanding them anyway, so we'll get to 14.400 at some point.

3600 Points = 600 days playtime / 1.64 years
14.400 Points = 2400 days playtime / 6.57 years

I thought 1 hour of game time is approximately equal to one cp?

My math: 3600/24 = 150 days of play time and 14,400 = 600 ....its still more than I will ever see I promise that.

1 CP without Enlightenment = 4 hours
1 CP with Enlightenment = 1 hour

Faugaun · January 2015

Despair9 wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Despair9 wrote: »

Yes Champion System will be a far worse grind than Veteran System. But only for those that will actually "grind" it.

Everyone else that will just play the game, and be happy with the points they're getting for "doing everything they would anyway", they won't even feel the need to swap between the CP UI every 5 secs like all the min/maxers.

The funny thing though is, how they reduced points from 14.400 to 3.600. Yep 4x less. I'm pretty sure, they'll keep on expanding them anyway, so we'll get to 14.400 at some point.

3600 Points = 600 days playtime / 1.64 years
14.400 Points = 2400 days playtime / 6.57 years

I thought 1 hour of game time is approximately equal to one cp?

My math: 3600/24 = 150 days of play time and 14,400 = 600 ....its still more than I will ever see I promise that.

1 CP without Enlightenment = 4 hours
1 CP with Enlightenment = 1 hour

Thanks for clarification I guess I read wrong.

RDMyers65b14_ESO · January 2015

The champion system is meant to balance the 50+ character development. As it stands now, there are those who min/maxed there way to V14 on multiple alts and have been 1)Complaining that there is nothing to do and 2) Denying anyone who didn't min/max to V14 immediately the chance to do the endgame content. (And yes, I have heard it myself!) Grinding champion points won't do any good as it is diminish return. There won't be a huge difference between a post patch 7 former V14 and a hit VR1 the same day that patch 6 came out character. It takes away the [bold] "specialness" [/bold] from the min/max player.

It makes them to be like everyone else. That is the bottom line of why they are so upset about the champion system. They will point out that there was once a plan to award points for xp. Yes, it was but things changed. ZOS could have easily said "Here is the new system, now go start earning points" but they didn't. They are rewarding everyone who has made it to the veteran ranks 30 points. The min/max players are saying "That's not what you said. That's not fair." Guess what. Life is not fair. Get over it. People lie or change their minds all the time. It happens. If one of those who have been complaining could give 100% proof that they have never ever lied or changed their mind since the day that they learned how to talk, it would be different. As a mother of two, I know better.

ZOS is doing what is best for the game as a whole with the implementation of the champion system. It is not here to cater to the vocal few. Yes, some people will leave because of the champion system. They should not let the door hit them on the way out. The champion system makes the game fair and better for not only the rest of the players but for future players as well. ZOS is looking to grow the game in the future. Things like the Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild, spellcrafting, jewelry crafting, poisons, barber shop and player housing will eventually be in the game. The Justice system when fully implemented will have outside of Cyrodil PvP.

The game is only going to get better. It has made vast improvements since beta and that progress is likely to continue. It won't be the same game a year from now. That is called growth. Some people will say it is dying. Guess what, we all are from the minute of birth. The trick is to make the most of the time in the middle. It is called life.

Razzak · January 2015

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

The champion system is meant to balance the 50+ character development. As it stands now, there are those who min/maxed there way to V14 on multiple alts and have been 1)Complaining that there is nothing to do and 2) Denying anyone who didn't min/max to V14 immediately the chance to do the endgame content. (And yes, I have heard it myself!) Grinding champion points won't do any good as it is diminish return. There won't be a huge difference between a post patch 7 former V14 and a hit VR1 the same day that patch 6 came out character. It takes away the [bold] "specialness" [/bold] from the min/max player.

It makes them to be like everyone else. That is the bottom line of why they are so upset about the champion system. They will point out that there was once a plan to award points for xp. Yes, it was but things changed. ZOS could have easily said "Here is the new system, now go start earning points" but they didn't. They are rewarding everyone who has made it to the veteran ranks 30 points. The min/max players are saying "That's not what you said. That's not fair." Guess what. Life is not fair. Get over it. People lie or change their minds all the time. It happens. If one of those who have been complaining could give 100% proof that they have never ever lied or changed their mind since the day that they learned how to talk, it would be different. As a mother of two, I know better.

ZOS is doing what is best for the game as a whole with the implementation of the champion system. It is not here to cater to the vocal few. Yes, some people will leave because of the champion system. They should not let the door hit them on the way out. The champion system makes the game fair and better for not only the rest of the players but for future players as well. ZOS is looking to grow the game in the future. Things like the Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild, spellcrafting, jewelry crafting, poisons, barber shop and player housing will eventually be in the game. The Justice system when fully implemented will have outside of Cyrodil PvP.

The game is only going to get better. It has made vast improvements since beta and that progress is likely to continue. It won't be the same game a year from now. That is called growth. Some people will say it is dying. Guess what, we all are from the minute of birth. The trick is to make the most of the time in the middle. It is called life.

I don't have a VR14 char even though I've been playing ESO since start. What does that make me? And I am one of those terrible people that DENY others the cjance of an end game content.
You seam to perfectly understand the type and motivation of players, so I was wondering where do I fit in this fairy land of yours.

Semfim · January 2015

kelly.medleyb14_ESO wrote: »

People who complain about "grinds" and "gear mills" and "difficulty"
have zero business playing an MMORPG.

Thick people shouldnt be allowed in the world but it took your comment for me to say something about it.

Goldie · January 2015

Guppet wrote: »

There are so many posts saying the long grind of VR is being replaced by an even longer one in the champion system. There are also people working out how long it will take to max it out.

My understanding if the new system, is that it is not intended to be grinded at all. The system is just supposed to be what happens in the back ground, while you do the content you want to. It is not supposed to be the reason you are doing the content.

How do other people see the system?

Grind or not, this is a complete rework of the entire system. Leveling, gear, abilities, time. People who have invested a lot of time into their characters are basically being told that those last 14 levels, the veteran ranks, the ones you wanted to finish so bad so you could get to the endgame content and be viable in PvP, are now going to be worthless and time wasted.

My understanding of the new system is, we have been paying to play an extended beta test for eso, the time and money we have invested so far while playing a incomplete game is essentially a waste of time. The game will be ready for 'official release' real soon!

DarthRupert · January 2015

Guppet wrote: »

How do other people see the system?

First you have to look at ESO being an MMO. Generally with these types of games there is an inherent rush to make characters a powerful as they can be, and to be first to find builds.

With this is mind, it makes sense that this is becoming a major worry for many players who have completed all the quest. As of right now PvP doesn't cut it to gain xp. And until we're able to test xp gains from dungeons and trials (which most likely won't be near questing xp), the only thing left to do is grind.

Also you have to realize that ZoS has always said they want players to play the way they want to (within reason of course). With the current info we have, they seem to be abandoning that mentality for anyone who's spent a considerable amount of time in-game.

Cody · January 2015

I personally am looking forward to the champion system.

Yes the min/maxers won't be happy, because they will be brought down to everyone else's level, that is understandable; but those guys need to stop the whining and get over it. Yes everyone will now receive 30 CPs if they have a vet character. I say that's good! it rewards both min/maxers and casual players! Why is this a bad thing? Now I do expect those of us that are VR14 to receive some sort of advantage of course, but it's not that big of a deal.

And honestly, this system will(hopefully) fit with the games motto: "play how you want" This does not mean "every build will work" that is not what I am saying for those of you that want to argue with me about that, it means that one should not have to go with one particular build just to be able to do this or that dungeon. There should be options: one should not have to be pigeon holed into a build just to run something: and I do believe 1.6 and the champion system will help fix this problem.

Forestd16b14_ESO · January 2015

How I see it it's allowing more modding to your character and allow you to really make your build yours. But I do agree it really isn't another grind or nothing cause they said that the cap is like 3600 points or something if the no life gankers really are gonna try to grind and get it capped there gonna be grinding for a long long time. So my opinion how I see this and want my advice. It's a new system there trying out and adding for more custom play styles and if any is this butt hurt about (as we been seeing on the forums lately) it then quiet the game and let us players who don't mind 30 for all or the new leveling play in peace. Games almost a year old and is gonna be here for a long time this champion system is just the first of many many ideas and if all you players who get butt hurt about ideas like this every time ESO is gonna go no where and fail fast.

OrphanHelgen · January 2015

It is based on pure xp, and then you will have the grinds. If they divided the champion points into "groups" or different types of champion points, it would be less grind based.
Even if you have earned different types of champion points, you can spend them all the same ways.

My suggestion:

1st type of champion points is earned by killing mobs. When you reach that cap, it doesn't help grinding anymore.

2nd type of CP, could be from quests. So you actually get something back if you reroll and do cadvels gold over again. And the trouble of finding quest partners in craglorn and other future group zones, will maybe be solved by rewarding players who are doing the quests over again to help guild mates and random players.

3'rd type of CP, could be from doing pvp and scaling with the alliance points you earn or something.

4th type of CP, could be from achievements, like daerdic lord slayer or speed run and stuff. Maybe even fishing achievement.

5th type of CP, could even be from farming. Like the motifs. Its rare

. So farmers actually gain CP's too.

I know what you will say: After every type of champion points are earned from grinding, you are forced to do quests and farm and stuff. But this is just my thought :-D.

Razzak · January 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

How I see it it's allowing more modding to your character and allow you to really make your build yours. But I do agree it really isn't another grind or nothing cause they said that the cap is like 3600 points or something if the no life gankers really are gonna try to grind and get it capped there gonna be grinding for a long long time. So my opinion how I see this and want my advice. It's a new system there trying out and adding for more custom play styles and if any is this butt hurt about (as we been seeing on the forums lately) it then quiet the game and let us players who don't mind 30 for all or the new leveling play in peace. Games almost a year old and is gonna be here for a long time this champion system is just the first of many many ideas and if all you players who get butt hurt about ideas like this every time ESO is gonna go no where and fail fast.

What about VR10, 11, 12, 13? Or less. What about those that are not min/maxers but have already finished most if not all of their quests? You do realize they exist, don't you?

Jice · January 2015

Until someone can explain to me how feeding your horse twice will make them better at end game content, I elect to ignore anyone saying they understand anything about how Champion points will affect a player's power level.

Other than the small splash page we were shown, no one has any idea what they'll be actually putting points into. For all we know the entire thing could be a fluffy non issue..like being able to feed your horse twice.

Or they could just be so situational, that 100 is really all you'll need to be competitive in a given role as long as you specialize for that roll. So a tank with 100 points is just as good as tank with 1000, but isn't able to branch away from tanking.

This is why I'm going to wait for the PTR drop so I can play around with it. Maybe then everyone else will stop freaking out like the curtains just went up in flames before anyone even got a chance to light the candle.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · January 2015

yes is the simple answer, if you take skyrim everyone had slightly different builds that is all this will do, there is no need to grind to get it all. it is to make each players character what they want and make it slightly harder in pvp to guess what the other person build really is, its not rocket science

RSram · January 2015

Govalon wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

Why ZOS chooses to call them CPs in instead of Skill Points just boggles my mind in adding extra complexity to a system that doesn't need it. Just like the VR system was stupid.

Because skill points are completely different things. Skill points are used to unlock skills and morphs in skill trees. Champion points are used to unlock passives in constenlations. If you could use skill points for both, you could get all skills in few weeks and collecting skyshards would be pointless.

I thought that after level 50 there would be not more skill points and you would start earning CP instead; Am I correct about this?

Guppet · January 2015

RSram wrote: »

Govalon wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

Why ZOS chooses to call them CPs in instead of Skill Points just boggles my mind in adding extra complexity to a system that doesn't need it. Just like the VR system was stupid.

Because skill points are completely different things. Skill points are used to unlock skills and morphs in skill trees. Champion points are used to unlock passives in constenlations. If you could use skill points for both, you could get all skills in few weeks and collecting skyshards would be pointless.

I thought that after level 50 there would be not more skill points and you would start earning CP instead; Am I correct about this?

No.

RSram · January 2015

Am I correct in stating that CP is still going to be calculated from XP earned after level 50?

So will doing the Cadwell's Gold after reaching level 50 earn you both skill points and CP at the same time? I referring to the points earned after each major quest in the other alliances, and the XP earn while playing.

My head hurts

nerevarine1138 · January 2015

RSram wrote: »

Am I correct in stating that CP is still going to be calculated from XP earned after level 50?

So will doing the Cadwell's Gold after reaching level 50 earn you both skill points and CP at the same time? I referring to the points earned after each major quest in the other alliances, and the XP earn while playing.

My head hurts

You will not be earning skill points for leveling after hitting 50, which isn't changing anything. Skill points from quests/shards will still be there.

Skill points are 100% distinct from Champion Points. They don't have anything to do with one another.

OP: I agree fully. People fail to realize that this system is about bringing the game more in line with the Elder Scrolls universe, and adding freedom to the endgame. Anyone treating this as a grind has completely missed the point of the system (and gaming in general).

PBpsy · January 2015

Jice wrote: »

Until someone can explain to me how feeding your horse twice will make them better at end game content, I elect to ignore anyone saying they understand anything about how Champion points will affect a player's power level.

Other than the small splash page we were shown, no one has any idea what they'll be actually putting points into. For all we know the entire thing could be a fluffy non issue..like being able to feed your horse twice.

Or they could just be so situational, that 100 is really all you'll need to be competitive in a given role as long as you specialize for that roll. So a tank with 100 points is just as good as tank with 1000, but isn't able to branch away from tanking.

This is why I'm going to wait for the PTR drop so I can play around with it. Maybe then everyone else will stop freaking out like the curtains just went up in flames before anyone even got a chance to light the candle.

We expect the champion passives to play a considerable role otherwise ZOS decision to erase 2/3 + of our character progression is even less comprehensible. What their decision to no award any compensation for VR implies that the CS may be a unbalanced mess. Is the difference between 142 CP and 30 (1 CP per VR level on 8 characters which probably less then a handful have. ) such an unbalancing factor that they found it preferable to *** off a large portion of their loyal player base? If yes ,may Sheo have mercy on us all.

Rev Rielle · January 2015

Guppet wrote: »

There are so many posts saying the long grind of VR is being replaced by an even longer one in the champion system. There are also people working out how long it will take to max it out.

My understanding if the new system, is that it is not intended to be grinded at all. The system is just supposed to be what happens in the back ground, while you do the content you want to. It is not supposed to be the reason you are doing the content.

How do other people see the system?

Yes, that's exactly what it's designed to be; something that ticks along and gives us a sense that we're continually improving our character whilst we play the game. And in that essence it will fulfill it's goal.

From what I've read here and otherwise it's really only those that fear change and those with some sort of false sense of entitlement that are complaining about it. They throw words like 'grind' around which has become a cliche these days, without actually knowing what it means. But I've noticed that those groups of players mostly whine about anything. The unfortunate reality is that, they don't realise that as long as they play these types of games for largely the wrong reasons they will be forever unhappy.

Gyudan · January 2015

You made a mistake in the title:

Are people missing the points of the champion system?

Yes indeed, we are missing the points. Players who quested in the Veteran zones will never be able to get them for the content that they already completed. Thanks for pointing that out @Guppet.

nerevarine1138 · January 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

You made a mistake in the title:

Are people missing the points of the champion system?

Yes indeed, we are missing the points. Players who quested in the Veteran zones will never be able to get them for the content that they already completed. Thanks for pointing that out @Guppet.

1. It's not like there are a finite number of Champion Points.
2. No one will have a substantive advantage simply because they have access to those quests. XP is XP.
3. Stop hijacking threads.

Cody · January 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

Am I correct in stating that CP is still going to be calculated from XP earned after level 50?

So will doing the Cadwell's Gold after reaching level 50 earn you both skill points and CP at the same time? I referring to the points earned after each major quest in the other alliances, and the XP earn while playing.

My head hurts

You will not be earning skill points for leveling after hitting 50, which isn't changing anything. Skill points from quests/shards will still be there.

Skill points are 100% distinct from Champion Points. They don't have anything to do with one another.

OP: I agree fully. People fail to realize that this system is about bringing the game more in line with the Elder Scrolls universe, and adding freedom to the endgame. Anyone treating this as a grind has completely missed the point of the system (and gaming in general).

If one were to try to grind this out, they would be wasting their time

at least, according to the info we have been given thus far.

Breg_Magol · January 2015

Oh waddling wombats Batman ... another long thread with people arguing and complaining about the CP system for me to get caught in.

Really folk ... all I hear is blah, blah, blah ... LOL.

Goldie · January 2015

Try fixing the things that were broken with the last patch that was supposed to fix the things that weren't broken in the first place, before another patch is released that breaks the things that aren't broken and fixing those that were never fixed from the previous patch that broke them!

Tankqull · January 2015

Despair9 wrote: »

Faugaun wrote: »

Despair9 wrote: »

Yes Champion System will be a far worse grind than Veteran System. But only for those that will actually "grind" it.

Everyone else that will just play the game, and be happy with the points they're getting for "doing everything they would anyway", they won't even feel the need to swap between the CP UI every 5 secs like all the min/maxers.

The funny thing though is, how they reduced points from 14.400 to 3.600. Yep 4x less. I'm pretty sure, they'll keep on expanding them anyway, so we'll get to 14.400 at some point.

3600 Points = 600 days playtime / 1.64 years
14.400 Points = 2400 days playtime / 6.57 years

I thought 1 hour of game time is approximately equal to one cp?

My math: 3600/24 = 150 days of play time and 14,400 = 600 ....its still more than I will ever see I promise that.

1 CP without Enlightenment = 4 hours
1 CP with Enlightenment = 1 hour

with their notorious underestimation of player commitment it´s more like:
1 CP without Enlightenment = 1 hour
1 CP with Enlightenment = 20 minutes => 50 days of pure played for all 3600points

Lied · January 2015

Based on this:
http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2ib7ef/discussion_champion_system_to_add_25200_hours_of/

There are two main reasons for this. First is to frankly slow the player's progression so they can't max any one stat too quickly. The second is to help with player diversification. Take it as you will, but that is how the system will work. This means that if you want to max out 700 points in Light Armor you will need to earn 2100 Champion Points because of the rotation system.
. . .
Another Champion System change has to do with helping player separation. We will cover "Enlightenment" in another post, but there is another mechanic in the Champion System designed to keep players together. That is the fact that placing points into the same passive over and over has diminishing returns. What does that mean? The example used was the first point you place into Light Armor may grant you a 1% increase in armor rating, but placing the 40th point into Light Armor might only grant you a 0.1% increase in armor (another reason for increasing all stats ten fold). This mechanic helps to keep players somewhat close in raw numbers but also means that diversifying your Champion Point allocation may yield the best overall results.

I agree with the interpretation and see it as an attempt to slow down progression, increase player diversity, and lump players together in larger brackets so they can effectively play together sooner and longer. Basically the opposite of the current VR system and previous VR increases.

I'd imagine there will be an epic amount of whining regarding "homogenization" come 1.7.

technohic · January 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

You made a mistake in the title:

Are people missing the points of the champion system?

Yes indeed, we are missing the points. Players who quested in the Veteran zones will never be able to get them for the content that they already completed. Thanks for pointing that out @Guppet.

1. It's not like there are a finite number of Champion Points.
2. No one will have a substantive advantage simply because they have access to those quests. XP is XP.
3. Stop hijacking threads.

Well the big question to me is on if they deliver on even getting thngs close to equal as far as XP gains go toward champion points. Sounds great but it will be hard to get right as with PvP, for example; being so random, how do you calculate what people should be earning there? Thats actually all I want; VR or Champion system either one; but I know it will be hard to do.

If they do not get XP gains balanced between silver/gold quests, dungeons, trials, PvP, or mob farming; people will flock to what rewards them the most (grind), unless of course, CP are worth very very little. FWIW though; not sure why people are whining about not having Caldwells to do. Mob grinding has always been faster, and currently is much more so than Caldwells now in Craglorn.

nerevarine1138 · January 2015

technohic wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

You made a mistake in the title:

Are people missing the points of the champion system?

Yes indeed, we are missing the points. Players who quested in the Veteran zones will never be able to get them for the content that they already completed. Thanks for pointing that out @Guppet.

1. It's not like there are a finite number of Champion Points.
2. No one will have a substantive advantage simply because they have access to those quests. XP is XP.
3. Stop hijacking threads.

Well the big question to me is on if they deliver on even getting thngs close to equal as far as XP gains go toward champion points. Sounds great but it will be hard to get right as with PvP, for example; being so random, how do you calculate what people should be earning there? Thats actually all I want; VR or Champion system either one; but I know it will be hard to do.

If they do not get XP gains balanced between silver/gold quests, dungeons, trials, PvP, or mob farming; people will flock to what rewards them the most (grind), unless of course, CP are worth very very little. FWIW though; not sure why people are whining about not having Caldwells to do. Mob grinding has always been faster, and currently is much more so than Caldwells now in Craglorn.

I highly doubt people with at least half of their brain intact will flock to grinding. There is no payoff for wasting your time that way, because you would have to spend so much time grinding that you'd miss the chance to play the game.