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Skill Damage Based off Resource Pool Total

NobleX35
NobleX35
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The discussions about the imbalance between Stamina and Magicka have been around since probably before the game even released and were definitely well warranted since it is was and to some extent still is a large imbalance. I thought I'd go ahead and point two huge issues that probably have not been discussed much (I haven't check the forums in a while so maybe they have been discussed already).

The first issue is related to the total number of skills that use magicka as a resource compared to the total number of skills that use stamina as a resource. At any given time you can have a total of 32 skills that use magicka available to you, while at the same time you can have a total of 9 skills that use Stamina (Werewolf abilities can only be used in Werewolf form so are not counted).

Magicka Abilities
- 15 class abilities
- 5 weapon abilities (either destro or resto staff)
- 5 undaunted abilities
- 4 mages guild abilities
- 2 vampire abilities (if you're a vampire)
- 1 soul magic ability

Stamina Abilities
- 5 weapon abilities (choose one line from Two-handed, Sword and shield, Dual Wield, and Bow)
- 4 fighters guild abilities.

In essence you have almost 4 times the number of magicka skills available to you than stamina skills at any given time. Now I realize that the reason it is likely this way is because of the fact that stamina is used for all of the utility abilities (sprinting, blocking, dodge roll, and CC break). However this imbalance in total available skills will lead me into my next point.

The second issue as the title states is the fact that the amount of damage a skill does is directly related to the maximum total pool of the resource it uses. For instance the amount of damage shield charge or snipe will do is largely impacted by the size of your stamina pool. The same can be said for all class abilities being largely impacted by the size of your magicka pool.

The reason I believe this is such a large imbalance is because you can have a full magicka build, but you can't really have a full stamina build (unless you use all of your weapon line skills...but that's impractical). So basically you're left with a magicka build and a hybrid build, which is where the real issue comes into place. The game does not allocate enough resources to the player to allow for any resources to be wasted, so most players (and I could be wrong) are likely going to focus on health for survivability and magicka because that's where the majority of skills pool their resource from and will want the highest potential out-put possible. This leads to the stamina resource being left behind and all stamina abilities being outclassed by magicka abilities.

In most MMO's a players ability damage is based off of the players level, the players weapon damage, and the players primary stat that does not impact the resource pools maximum total. This game is obviously different because it does not have the traditional "stats" and has two different resource pools that impact ability damage.

I believe that the only real way to help make stamina abilities more useful and more balanced in this game is to base ability damage on the players level (which it already is) and the players spell and weapon damage stats only, and have not be impacted by the size of their respective resource pools.

The Champion System is coming and I know that it is going to be a massive game changer so this thread may be pointless. However I felt I should point out these flaws in the current system, just in case they carry over into the new system.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war."
  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    Yep this probably could have been posted in numerous other threads and you're right! Also 1.6 is coming, who knows what we will see.
    Guild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
    CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
    "How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]
  • NobleX35
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    I'm not surprised, like I said I know that the discussions about stamina being the resource for all the utility skills have been around forever, but I just haven't seen too many on the issues I pointed out.

    Hopefully 1.6 will be awesome and make the changes we've been hoping for a long time.
    "Only the dead have seen the end of war."
  • WillhelmBlack
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    I hate levels/hard scaling so sorry I don't agree with you. I like it that you never know what you're going to get in PvP. Some players won't have much health or stamina or whatever but a nicely buffed, timed attack can wipe you from the face of Nirn immediately. I think ZOS ATM are trying to build on this with the CP system, personally I can't wait. It offers far more than scaling dmg off of stamina/magicka and allows you to customise what sort of damage your character is going to specialise in. :)
    PC EU
  • NobleX35
    NobleX35
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    I hate levels/hard scaling so sorry I don't agree with you. I like it that you never know what you're going to get in PvP. Some players won't have much health or stamina or whatever but a nicely buffed, timed attack can wipe you from the face of Nirn immediately. I think ZOS ATM are trying to build on this with the CP system, personally I can't wait. It offers far more than scaling dmg off of stamina/magicka and allows you to customise what sort of damage your character is going to specialise in. :)

    I feel like you fully didn't understand what I was saying. I'm not saying that everyone's abilities should always do the same amount of damage if they are the same level. The only way they would be impacted by a persons level or any sort of scaling system is in the absolute base damage a skill can do (which currently already is in the system we have). My idea was then to have ability damage only be impacted by a players spell and weapon damage stat, but not be impacted by the maximum total magicka/stamina that the player posses. So if you wanted to increase the power of your abilities you would then have to put more emphasis on increasing your spell and weapon damage stats.

    The idea is to obviously make the spell damage and weapon damage stats much more meaningful while also taking some of the emphasis away from their resource pools. You would still have the capability to spec for those well timed attacks like you stated above, and it would add more character customization options to the game. This would basically just help to balance the gap between stamina and magicka abilities because your stamina abilities would not always be outclassed by your magicka abilities simply because your magicka pool is larger.
    Edited by NobleX35 on January 3, 2015 11:37PM
    "Only the dead have seen the end of war."
  • WillhelmBlack
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    Sorry @GothicPython, I'm with you now. To have spell/weapon damage literally based on your damage stat from crafted armour traits, weapon level, passives etc etc.

    That's exactly how I would want it and this should be included in the CP system.
    PC EU
  • Rodario
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    I think we had practically the same Idea here, except I only want it to happen for class skills:

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/133373/how-class-skills-should-be-scaled
    Victoria Lux - Templar Tank
    {EU/DC}
  • Teargrants
    Teargrants
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    OP, not entirely true. My friend runs a full stam NB, 2600 stam 180 stam regen, only 2 magicka skills on his bar (fear/cloak). He wrecks face. Full stam build is absolutely viable you just have to know what you're doing.

    That said, I'm all for skill dmg only scaling from spell/wep dmg and not max mag/stam. That would help hybrid builds be more viable.

    For instance as a light armor sorc I can max my stam regen if I want and spam invasion or crit rush for days, I can even max my wep dmg with crit surge. But because I only have 1655 stam, it hits for nothing.
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  • Bouvin
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    Cuyler wrote: »
    Yep this probably could have been posted in numerous other threads and you're right! Also 1.6 is coming, who knows what we will see.

    Probably a buff to Stick Wielding, Light Armor DK Tanks.
  • OrphanHelgen
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    Agree with you 100 percent before I read you post, and 150 percent after :) . I am stamina based damage. And a good example is the veteran dungeon crypt where the last boss is an undead and to get the gold key, you have to keep 4 of his students alive while he puts down his sword at 40 percent health. This boss force you to roll dodge, run and block. Even as a tank, this one drains the stamina so bad. But I did do dragonstar arena veteran with stamina damage and Im doing well in pvp, so its not THAT bad, but a stamina change or buff would make me and my orc happy :D
    PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact


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  • NobleX35
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    Teargrants wrote: »
    OP, not entirely true. My friend runs a full stam NB, 2600 stam 180 stam regen, only 2 magicka skills on his bar (fear/cloak). He wrecks face. Full stam build is absolutely viable you just have to know what you're doing.

    That said, I'm all for skill dmg only scaling from spell/wep dmg and not max mag/stam. That would help hybrid builds be more viable.

    For instance as a light armor sorc I can max my stam regen if I want and spam invasion or crit rush for days, I can even max my wep dmg with crit surge. But because I only have 1655 stam, it hits for nothing.

    I guess since your friend isn't using any magicka abilities that do damag and is basically just using utility skills you could classify that as a stamina build...though its still seems like a bit of a stretch since 2/5ths of his bar still uses Magicka. While still possible, builds like that are kind of rare, and usually not worth the high investment taking into account what else is available, though kudos to your friend for finding a good stamina build!

    Regardless I'm glad we agree on the scaling aspect. When I first roled my DK I tried to have a hybrid setup and it did not perform well at all. I only realized later while on my Templar when I tried to make a dual wield AoE build, why my orginal setup on my dk did not work. All of my magicka skills destroyed stuff, but Whirlwind was too weak to make it a worthwhile option, and this was completely due to the fact that my stamina pool was just too low and eventually leading me to just scrap the whole dual wield setup.
    Edited by NobleX35 on January 5, 2015 6:57PM
    "Only the dead have seen the end of war."
  • Nazarousb14_ESO
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    This thread makes me sad for my kitty that I was just coming back to play. Mixed with the possible changes to impenetrable, night blade kitties sound almost dead in the water.
  • LonePirate
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    You omitted the Armor skills (1 Magicka and 2 Stamina) as well as the Alliance War skills (4 each for Magicka and Stamina). Plus, several class skills now have Stamina morphs. While the balance still tilts towards Magicka, it is not as bad as the OP makes it seem.
  • NobleX35
    NobleX35
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    LonePirate wrote: »
    You omitted the Armor skills (1 Magicka and 2 Stamina) as well as the Alliance War skills (4 each for Magicka and Stamina). Plus, several class skills now have Stamina morphs. While the balance still tilts towards Magicka, it is not as bad as the OP makes it seem.

    While you're right I did forget the armor lines and alliance war skills, I posted this before there was any real knowledge of skill change morphs...
    "Only the dead have seen the end of war."
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