I expect more out of PVP

Hostel_Striker · January 2015

The beginning of the new year got me thinking about the past year. When I think about last year I think about what I did on the Elder Scrolls Online. The majority of the time I played I was in PVP. This game was released 4-4-14. It is now 1-2-15 and we have been doing the exact same thing in Cyrodiil this entire time. We spend endless hours in PVP to get a handful of gold with nothing to spend it on and some gear that is only worth deconstructing. Why isn't there more PVP content like 1 vs. 1 and group vs. group PVP tournaments? A 20 man free for all trapped in a keep would be pretty fun. Why isn't there guild vs. guild games like capture the flag or a two hour guild war? How about a guild contest? An event that mixes PVE with PVP. The guild that kills the most monsters (they respawn) while PVP is allowed wins. Seriously ZOS PVP needs more content.

technohic · January 2015

Nothing you mentioned, but the justice system is supposed to eventually be PvP. Kind of my flavor of PvP personally; in that it is more open rather than canned warzones and arenas. Although; I don't think it would hurt to tie in some smaller scale, instanced stuff somewhere.

Athas24 · January 2015

I agree. I love the war concept but there is a lot more than large scale warfare that can and should be done here for pvp.

Pathfinder · January 2015

Yeah, the map is getting really stale. Other PvP games have multiple different/rotating maps for a reason.

Samadhi · January 2015

The war in Cyrodiil seems to be designed towards making the whole Stormcloak/Empire/Thalmor dilemma from Skyrim come alive in a way that facilitates interaction on a massively multiplayer scale.
Feel in that regard, this was executed well.

The PvE zones in Cyrodiil open up the game to a sort of open-world PvP that harkens back to being ambushed by bandits or other random encounters while adventuring through Tamriel.
As someone who loved Oblivion and has spent countless hours exploring and PvEing in Cyrodiil, this received pretty solid execution.

When the Justice System finally is complete, rather than the broken bare-bones we will be receiving in 1.6, it will allow for massively multiplayer experiences of the classic thieves/dark brotherhood vs. the guards scenarios that have become an appealing mainstay of the Elder Scrolls series.
Looking very forward to this being completed.

We still need dueling to give that feeling of controlled in-city brawls.

We absolutely need an Arena setting, most ideally with observation decks and betting; however, that is likely wishful thinking on my part.

Will forever wish that open world PvP were available outside of Cyrodiil, but thankful that Cyrodiil ended up being the map where it happens.

There is some solid PvP mechanics here, and the Justice System gives me high hopes.
PvP definitely deserves more attention and more diversification though.

Being able to adventure with friends is great for recreating the feeling of adventuring with a Companion in Skyrim. This brings this feature into an MMO seting.
PvP is the keynote that can serve to bring the really enlivening experiences of the single player games into an MMO setting though. PvP warrants more attention for that reason; until PvP gets more attention this game will continue to feel like a downgraded Elder Scrolls due to the static nature of PvE here. PvP makes combat dynamic in a way that reflects on the best parts of the Elder Scrolls series.

Roechacca · January 2015

It's a new born game in MMO years . A lot needs to be done . Lag / Cross faction problems / buff servers ect . I'm still having fun though N when I'm not I go PvE for a bit . Give it a chance to develop . Most games take a couple years at least to nail down pvp . Some get it right out of the box but have other issues .

yodased · January 2015

The thing is though,

They have technically given you a sandbox within Cyrodil.

There is absolutely zero reason you can't set up 1v1 1vX arenas whatever you want within the confines of Cyrodil.

What the real thing here is I believe s you want specific rewards outside the scope of PvP rewards for doing those things.

Ask for what you want and you may receive it.

Also, there are some really BAD ASS rewards in Cyrodil, so maybe we aren't playing the same Cyrodil?

yodased · January 2015

also, isn't expect a little much? I mean they give you this massive area with incredible dynamics to use, the meta has gone a certain way sure, but that's not the system's fault.

technohic · January 2015

Just as long as they're are careful to keep Cyrodiil the main focus. I went back to another game for a while, and instant pop quick play PvP sounds great until I played it again for a while. They all get boring and I fear people want rewards focused on these instanced, smaller battles; and I much rather have that large scale "sandbox" style of PvP to be the main focus than wind up with another WoW clone longing for the days when open world PvP happened.

Heck. I've always felt Cyrodiil should be more of a focus in the game overall. Or at least make sure people with that sort of taste have it be a lot more viable to use to progress their characters. I

Cyrodiil even if I am a noob getting blasted or at the wrong end of the FOTM skill.

Terror · January 2015

you take the small scale pvp, while more competitive and give it small scale rewards. Make it more fun than beneficial, keep people doing cyrodiil for gear and reward/return purposes, just give achievements for small scale, and very small rewards. People like small scale pvp for the challenge it brings in testing themselves against other individuals rather than going up against huge zergs.

technohic · January 2015

Terror wrote: »

you take the small scale pvp, while more competitive and give it small scale rewards. Make it more fun than beneficial, keep people doing cyrodiil for gear purposes, just give achievements for small scale, and very small rewards. People like small scale pvp for the challenge it brings in testing themselves against other individuals rather than going up against huge zergs.

I figure either that, or they take something like towns/outposts in Cyrodiil and allow them to be contested. You have to travel to the town in Cyrodiil to then go into an instance and fight whoever holds it so you still traverse the open world PvP area. Just something to keep it all integrated.

Then we have to talk about the issues that are ever present in smaller scale PvP and how it is treated. Some builds and skills will turn out to be far more or less effective in small scale fights than large ones so there is a question of what they balance around. And then will come the ever persistent, premade vs PUG debate; but for that I think in this game, the answer is if you want to PUG, go get in the zerg.

Hostel_Striker · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

The thing is though,

They have technically given you a sandbox within Cyrodil.

There is absolutely zero reason you can't set up 1v1 1vX arenas whatever you want within the confines of Cyrodil.

What the real thing here is I believe s you want specific rewards outside the scope of PvP rewards for doing those things.

Ask for what you want and you may receive it.

Also, there are some really BAD ASS rewards in Cyrodil, so maybe we aren't playing the same Cyrodil?

So do the work for them in a make-shift kind of fashion is your suggestion in regards to PVP tournaments. There is absolutely zero reason ZOS can't set up the environment for us. Besides you just know someone would show up and ruin it no matter where you had this at. I'm talking structured events that are displayed for everyone to see. Not events that require a zone argument to know who won. Small scale PVP events must be implemented.

*Edit - In addition how do you suggest I have a friendly PVP with a friend from the same alliance?

yodased · January 2015

You don't have friendly PvP because it doesn't exist. Even if there were to be small scale pvp, you still wouldn't be able to because thats not how this works.

So you want duels? I'm confused.

Hostel_Striker · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

You don't have friendly PvP because it doesn't exist. Even if there were to be small scale pvp, you still wouldn't be able to because thats not how this works.

So you want duels? I'm confused.

I want more from PVP than what Cyrodiil has had to offer for the past 9 months. Not sure how that's so hard to understand. Structured PVP events of all kinds.

yodased · January 2015

It isn't hard to understand that you want something, but you are presenting conflicting ideas is all.

This game doesn't have structured PvP events. It was never presented to have nor even spoken about having them.

What I don't get is you knew exactly what you signed up for, got 9 months of fun out of it, are bored now and want them to change/add things to the game.

Where does this mindset come from?

It's presented as:

I'm done with what you have given me so give me something that you didn't plan on, but I want.

If this is not how it is, please elaborate for me.

HeroOfNone · January 2015

If you want smaller scale pvp I think part of that will come with the justice system when they implies that player based gaurds.

As for organized ladder tournaments, there have been some events being planned:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/136767/guild-vs-guild-pvp-tournament-8vs8-500k-cash-prize

Do you want more story to your pvp? More balance and fair fights on both sides? Maybe more specific instances locked to two groups?

Outside of that I'd say you're being rather vague. You want something more than the AvA fight in Cyrodiil right now, but it's not necessarily duels? Take a look in my profile at the suggestions I put out in discussions and see if you can reword it as a request and less of a complant.

I want x, with features 1, 2, 3... but there are issues with a, b, c, ... and this worked very well in game y.

See if that narrows it down. I do have an idea for a small scale instanced battle tournaments in a draft, I'll see if I can get that formatted and suggested by next week.

miahq · January 2015

Cyrodiil unfortunately still has a rather bland thrown together feel to it, more like a large arena with a few towns there as props. They really just need to work on making it feel like a more fleshed out environment and better incentivize holding territory.

I mean keeps are still largely empty and basically useless to hold. Tows and cities in the area are underwhelming at best and completely irrelevant to pvp at worst. The landscape is too uniform, as they've mostly flattened it out and thinned out forests to make it more or a giant arena where you can have giant battles anywhere. They really need to put down the nerf bat for a while and change a lot of this.

1) since we're supposed to be soldiers, why not give people in the campaign a salary of gold every week based on number of keeps held and their time/contributions to the effort. That would give people incentive for not just taking keeps, but holding on to territory.

2) make the keep interiors upgrade along with the walls and doors, so that holding them long term will give you an incentive to hold them. Especially for guilds, add a basement armory or treasure room where people can store more items and when a guild takes a keep they get several keys they can use to it-- or just guild membership unlocks it, etc. and allow hiring more npc guards for cost to man the walls and make it more difficult to take keeps. At the least, change up the designs of a few so they're more unique.

2) make cities actually cities, with not just lots of people, but entertainment shops to bring PC to them with games and services, etc (this should be true of every city, not just pvp). But, how about bonuses for also controlling them? Maybe increased salary for your soldiers from tax or mine/ farming income from holding those towns? Regardless, just make them matter more.

3) make the landscape less generic. I don't mind choke points, but they should feel more natural than some mysterious, convenient mountain range with a few gates. Put mountain keeps in actual mountains, put in actually thick forests in some areas, and instead of making the entire landscape convenient for large scale battles, let the landscape force people to think about strategy and better dictate where those battles take place.

4) change the rewards system so emperor isn't just the person with the most points. How about the leader of the guild that takes/holds the most territory gets their gm to be emperor? This would at least bring in the keeps, and allow it to not be based just on score. Plus you'd have less emperor turn over and it wouldn't become such a stale reward so quickly.

Give them more incentives as well, like maybe the emperors guild gets access to a castle in a city of their territory, again though, it's just about incentives not just to participate, but to keep it interesting and to encourage people to want to be interested.

Less simplistic and more varied, with far more incentive is the key. At least if you want to keep people engaged.

Hostel_Striker · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

It isn't hard to understand that you want something, but you are presenting conflicting ideas is all.

This game doesn't have structured PvP events. It was never presented to have nor even spoken about having them.

What I don't get is you knew exactly what you signed up for, got 9 months of fun out of it, are bored now and want them to change/add things to the game.

Where does this mindset come from?

It's presented as:

I'm done with what you have given me so give me something that you didn't plan on, but I want.

If this is not how it is, please elaborate for me.

Wanting more PVP from a game that has PVP isn't conflicting. I didn't get what I was expecting from the game either. They had to scale down the number of players in cyrodiil in an effort to "fix" the lag. What's wrong with wanting more content after 9 months? How many people will continue to play a game that never evolves? You want it to stay exactly the same forever and go F2P or are you just trying to troll me? This is a discussion for adding more structured PVP content to the game. The fact you're spending this much time in this discussion tells me the game must be lacking for you too. Otherwise you'd be on it instead of here.

Rev Rielle · January 2015

Hostel_Striker wrote: »

... We spend endless hours in PVP to get a handful of gold with nothing to spend it on and some gear that is only worth deconstructing. ...

I thought people played PvP for the enjoyment/challenge of playing against other players rather than the boring predictability of an A.I. Not just to get 'rewards'. Peoples selfish extrinsic values are ruining MMOs.

That being said, it doesn't matter how wonderful something is at first, if we do the same thing over and over again it's going to become stale. The problem with PvP is as I see it is that it's fundamentally like any other PvP game; zerg v zerg for the most part. Hopefully ESO will work and continue to change the mechanics so this kind of skill-less play-style is not optimal, and is infact penalised in some way. e.g. Friendly AoE fire would be a good start. Make it something unique and different from the countless other MMOs out there.

yodased · January 2015

Hostel_Striker wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

It isn't hard to understand that you want something, but you are presenting conflicting ideas is all.

This game doesn't have structured PvP events. It was never presented to have nor even spoken about having them.

What I don't get is you knew exactly what you signed up for, got 9 months of fun out of it, are bored now and want them to change/add things to the game.

Where does this mindset come from?

It's presented as:

I'm done with what you have given me so give me something that you didn't plan on, but I want.

If this is not how it is, please elaborate for me.

Wanting more PVP from a game that has PVP isn't conflicting. I didn't get what I was expecting from the game either. They had to scale down the number of players in cyrodiil in an effort to "fix" the lag. What's wrong with wanting more content after 9 months? How many people will continue to play a game that never evolves? You want it to stay exactly the same forever and go F2P or are you just trying to troll me? This is a discussion for adding more structured PVP content to the game. The fact you're spending this much time in this discussion tells me the game must be lacking for you too. Otherwise you'd be on it instead of here.

Why would you think I'm trolling you? I am trying to have a conversation that you openly started.

I have asked questions because I am interested in how you feel about the subject.

Also, to talk on your assumption, I am here because I am currently not able to play the game.

If you notice, I am on these forums only in the times where I can't be in game.

When I can be in game, well i'm in game.

Athas24 · January 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

We still need dueling to give that feeling of controlled in-city brawls.

We absolutely need an Arena setting, most ideally with observation decks and betting; however, that is likely wishful thinking on my part.

PvP definitely deserves more attention and more diversification though.

PvP is the keynote that can serve to bring the really enlivening experiences of the single player games into an MMO setting though. PvP warrants more attention for that reason; until PvP gets more attention this game will continue to feel like a downgraded Elder Scrolls due to the static nature of PvE here. PvP makes combat dynamic in a way that reflects on the best parts of the Elder Scrolls series.

^^ yes yes and yes!

I love PVE in MMO's until I "beat the game" and then I LOVE to PVP because it gives a solid feeling of accomplishment and adaptation. I don't really get that from PVE, to an extent sure but not like PVP.

Darkrogue671 · January 2015

Nothing kills an MMORPG faster than full open PvP. I'm not going to beat around the bush. This is what would happen if PvP went into the PvE areas except for designated "safe zones".

The VR punks would be ganking everyone from the beginning area to Coldharbor!

Which will cause the following:
- You pay for a game that you only play when you have friends you can roll with (numbers).
- New players will stop playing.
- Solo players will stop playing.
- Growth in the game comes to a crawl until it stops.
- Subs start declining until the cliques are the only ones playing.
- Eventually, only 1 clique prevails and the game is officially dead (save for those who front the cost to maintain their own servers).

Yeah, yeah, I know I threw some troll bait out there, but this is the truth. I've seen it happen time and time again on PvP focused games. Perfect example - Shadowbane. That game is still out there (barely) but learn Korean, quickly.

Hostel_Striker · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

Hostel_Striker wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

It isn't hard to understand that you want something, but you are presenting conflicting ideas is all.

This game doesn't have structured PvP events. It was never presented to have nor even spoken about having them.

What I don't get is you knew exactly what you signed up for, got 9 months of fun out of it, are bored now and want them to change/add things to the game.

Where does this mindset come from?

It's presented as:

I'm done with what you have given me so give me something that you didn't plan on, but I want.

If this is not how it is, please elaborate for me.

Wanting more PVP from a game that has PVP isn't conflicting. I didn't get what I was expecting from the game either. They had to scale down the number of players in cyrodiil in an effort to "fix" the lag. What's wrong with wanting more content after 9 months? How many people will continue to play a game that never evolves? You want it to stay exactly the same forever and go F2P or are you just trying to troll me? This is a discussion for adding more structured PVP content to the game. The fact you're spending this much time in this discussion tells me the game must be lacking for you too. Otherwise you'd be on it instead of here.

Why would you think I'm trolling you? I am trying to have a conversation that you openly started.

I have asked questions because I am interested in how you feel about the subject.

Also, to talk on your assumption, I am here because I am currently not able to play the game.

If you notice, I am on these forums only in the times where I can't be in game.

When I can be in game, well i'm in game.

Me too. I have 91 days, 14 hours, 4 minutes, and 55 seconds invested 99 percent of which is PVP. So forgive me if I want a little something else to do in PVP.

miahq · January 2015

Darkrogue671 wrote: »

Nothing kills an MMORPG faster than full open PvP. I'm not going to beat around the bush. This is what would happen if PvP went into the PvE areas except for designated "safe zones".

The VR punks would be ganking everyone from the beginning area to Coldharbor!

Which will cause the following:
- You pay for a game that you only play when you have friends you can roll with (numbers).
- New players will stop playing.
- Solo players will stop playing.
- Growth in the game comes to a crawl until it stops.
- Subs start declining until the cliques are the only ones playing.
- Eventually, only 1 clique prevails and the game is officially dead (save for those who front the cost to maintain their own servers).

Yeah, yeah, I know I threw some troll bait out there, but this is the truth. I've seen it happen time and time again on PvP focused games. Perfect example - Shadowbane. That game is still out there (barely) but learn Korean, quickly.

I do agree with that as far as general whole world pvp, but world pvp can still be a good thing if done right.

Letting people opt out for one, or limiting it through certain groups like through the justice system, gives high level players a bit more of an active world at end of game. Not just generic, open conflict mind you, but say if two groups were going after some hidden treasure by accepting the quest all the groups looking for it could become free targets.

I guess that would be more instanced open world pvp, but really I think doing it like that would add to the complexity of many aspects of the game. And by making it a system for end of game content, you avoid jerks going around slaughtering new players for fun.

Jitterbug · January 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

massively multiplayer experiences of the classic thieves/dark brotherhood vs. the guards scenarios that have become an appealing mainstay of the Elder Scrolls series.

Seriously, my heart started racing for a second there...

Zorrashi · January 2015

It is of my personal belief that instead on relying on the upcoming justice system for any PvP expansion, they should be keeping most of the PvP focus on Cyrodil. Expanding it into PvE territory to any degree can easily arouse conflict and irritation. True opt-in segregation of the play styles is practically essential, and i'm not too sure if they can really accomplish that even in the Justice System (I can only hope they can really prevent ganking or player griefing.).

That being said, if you want more players to enter Cyrodil, or otherwise coerce existing players to do more than travel to the occasional castle or resource, then the key is add some sort of incentive to get them to divert from their usual mode of PvP progress. Be it through better rewards, buffs or something else, the incentive in question must be enough to convince players of all sorts (and factions) that X is worth getting.

Travelling caravans to protect (or raid), making towns/cities play an actual role in keeps defences, etc.

I'm sure there are a lot of ways to do it.

Samadhi · January 2015

Jitterbug wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

massively multiplayer experiences of the classic thieves/dark brotherhood vs. the guards scenarios that have become an appealing mainstay of the Elder Scrolls series.

Seriously, my heart started racing for a second there...

There is the potential for great things here.

miahq · January 2015

Zorrashi wrote: »

It is of my personal belief that instead on relying on the upcoming justice system for any PvP expansion, they should be keeping most of the PvP focus on Cyrodil. Expanding it into PvE territory to any degree can easily arouse conflict and irritation. True opt-in segregation of the play styles is practically essential, and i'm not too sure if they can really accomplish that even in the Justice System (I can only hope they can really prevent ganking or player griefing.).

That being said, if you want more players to enter Cyrodil, or otherwise coerce existing players to do more than travel to the occasional castle or resource, then the key is add some sort of incentive to get them to divert from their usual mode of PvP progress. Be it through better rewards, buffs or something else, the incentive in question must be enough to convince players of all sorts (and factions) that X is worth getting.

Travelling caravans to protect (or raid), making towns/cities play an actual role in keeps defences, etc.

I'm sure there are a lot of ways to do it.

Although cyrodiil is in heavy, heavy need of a great makeover, integrating some whole world pvp can be a good thing. I don't think the barrier should be so absolute, otherwise you're trying to please two different groups of people simultaneously.

Besides, all you have to do is make it opt in, that will allow players early on to not get constantly harassed by jerks, and it allows for a more interesting end game experience. With the phasing you don't even have to worry about server changes as well.

I don't want complete, open world pvp. I'd rather have it instanced to specific types of quests. Bounty or assassination quests, and other types of quests that can pit PC against each other.

It would especially make it interesting to me if when at end game you traveled to the other alliances you could be 1) phased in with the regular players there, and 2) could be considered a criminal through the justice system, especially if you've been involved in cyrodiil.

Again though, as a choice. That way it's not going to over-run the more dedicated PvE group with constant pk, but still allows for a far, far more varied end game for people other than waiting for the next dungeon crawl or farming for those rare drops.

Itoq · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

They have technically given you a sandbox within Cyrodil.

I wouldn't consider Cyrodil a sandbox at all. Way too much is predetermined to be a sandbox. Maybe if we could decide on keep locations and layouts, resource locations, where d and o ticks could be earned, etc. then it would be much more of a sandbox.

miahq · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

The thing is though,

They have technically given you a sandbox within Cyrodil.

As far as sandboxes go, New vegas was less of a wasteland than cyrodiil. The landscape is barren and uninteresting; the keeps are basically empty and next to useless, and are barely tied into pvp since it's all based on AP-- the incentives aren't really to hold anything for a long time; the towns are bare minimum, the quests are absurdly linear and mostly revolve around "go collect x," or "kill so and so"; the map itself seems way too unnatural and forced, in it's shape, it's layout, the placement of choke points, and keeps. The entire thing has a rushed and unfinished feel to it.

It may be a sandbox in the fact you can go anywhere, but it's far from anything really worth seeing or doing.

thodoris1008 · January 2015

What I would like to see in pvp is bigger build diversity.At the moment it seems that there are only 2 ways to build your character in order to be effective in Cyrodiil:stamina based archer or magicka based s&b/resto.This excludes dedicated healers.I really hope that the number of viable pvp builds will increase with the skills overhaul and the implementation of the champion system in update 6.