AoE changes and getting rid of the zerg

miahq · January 2015

One of the things I liked that did heard about 1.6 was changing the AoE cap, but what baffled me was the explanation behind that decision, which seems to be to break up the zerg and stop clumping/spamming. That... doesn't even make sense. I mean most people didn't even seem to know there was a cap at first, there were still zergs. In fact aren't caps supposed to be to stop zerging in the first place?

As an adjustment, I like the change. But as a means to stop the zerg... that kind of clumping just seems like a natural process. Sometimes it's a guild hpwho does it on purpose, other times it's just an organic process. The only way you're ever going to stop it is by forcing people to consciously avoid it, which it seems you could easily do by just applying a little splash damage to allies from AoE. It wouldn't even take a lot, just like 5%-- on a 1000 damage attack that would only be 50pts, not much to care about. But stack that with ten people all spamming the same attack and it starts to matter. The zerg would just be suicide.

Basically removing the cap to break up the zerg... isn't that just going to make the zerg stronger?

Lynx7386 · January 2015

Here's how it works:

Say you have a bunch of people in a PvP environment, and they all have 1000 health. You have an AoE spell that deals 1000 damage. For this example, we'll say there's 100 players on the enemy team.

With a 6 person aoe cap, your 1000 damage AoE spell will kill 6 players out of the 100 enemy group each time you cast it. The enemy players know this, so they get as close together as possible (all 100 players practically piggybacking each other) in order to reduce the likelihood of your spell hitting them. If they're all clumped into one tiny little ball, the changes of you hitting (and killing) each individual drops to 6%. This is how the 'zergballs' protect themselves from AoE, by using the AoE cap to their advantage.

If that AoE spell had no cap, and all of those 100 players grouped up into a little ball like they do now, they would all be killed in a single cast. You'd be dealing 1000 damage to each and every one of the 100 players, wiping out their entire army in a single cast. In this situation, it is much more practical for those 100 players to spread out from each other - the more spread out they are, the fewer of them you can kill with each cast, and the greater chance they have of killing you before you can put a dent in their numbers.

In the system we're getting stuck with in 1.6, each AoE spell will deal full damage to the 6 targets closest to the spell's center, while everyone else takes 50% of the damage (I think there's actually a two-step damage reduction, with like 30 something players taking 50%, and then everyone else taking 25%, but I'm not positive at this point in time). For example's sake, we'll just say that 6 targets take 100% damage, and the rest take 50%.

If those 100 players group up in a little zergball, 6 of them will die when you cast the first time, and the rest will be reduced to half health. Your second cast will kill the rest of the group. This is almost as effective as having no cap at all. If large groups of players want to survive against AoE spells, they would be wise to spread out.

Of course, our AoE spells dont one shot the enemies, but you get the point: The more grouped up the other team is, the more damage they're going to take. It will no longer be a safe abuse of mechanics to clump together in order to maximize survivability.

Lynx7386 · January 2015

Further commenting on the topic: there's one thing that would really, actually help change how players clump together in pvp, and that's collision. Assigning a collision box to each player (which not only prevents them from getting right up on top of each other, but also prevents enemies from doing the same) means that you could effectively form 'walls' with heavily armored melee characters, allowing them to physically block the opposing force from attacking squishier archers, mages, and healers.

Collision would actually bring us some semi-realistic battlefield movement, with your heavy sword and shield or melee front line (the vanguard), followed by your ranged damage dealers who are protected from attack by that front line, followed by your healers. It would also allow, if players were coordinated enough, the use of combat tactics to flank and surround enemy forces.

miahq · January 2015

Collision would've been my first choice, but I realize the performance issues would kill large scale pvp. So the splash damage seemed like the best way.

The zergs and the rest of that, I know how it works-- or how it's supposed to work in theory, but there were zerg balls before most even knew there were caps. But as you said, there aren't really any one shot AoE spells. And other people in the zerg ball are going to be casting heals, cc, etc. even if in some situations it will make it easier to combat the zerg-- and I think it will--caps won't change the fact zergs exist is my only point. Especially since their point isn't to help players combat it, but to try and discourage people from doing it because of performance issues. That part I really don't think is going to change.

You can't fight the zerg ball. There will always be the zerg ball, unless you enable collision or make it self defeating.

Sharee · January 2015

miahq wrote: »

But as you said, there aren't really any one shot AoE spells. And other people in the zerg ball are going to be casting heals, cc, etc. even if in some situations it will make it easier to combat the zerg-- and I think it will--caps won't change the fact zergs exist is my only point.

There are no one-shot AoE spells, but there can be multiple attackers casting the AOE.

AOE cast by enough attackers at once pretty much equals to one-shot. And where before you were pretty much safe from oneshot because the chance of each attacker damaging you were so small, now you are guaranteed to take at least some damage from every one of them, so the damage will quickly add together, and you will either have to move out of the fire, or die.

And since the fire is where the zerg is, moving out of the fire means having to spread out.

Lynx7386 · January 2015

What'd be interesting is if some (or all) aoe spells had their damage increased for each target they hit. You'd do, say, 100 damage if the aoe hits one target. If you hit two targets, it's 200 damage each. 3 targets would be 300 damage each, so on and so forth. This would definitely help with mass clusters of players, who would wind up taking insane amounts of damage being so close together.

Samadhi · January 2015

miahq wrote: »

... I mean most people didn't even seem to know there was a cap at first, there were still zergs. In fact aren't caps supposed to be to stop zerging in the first place?
...

There were zergs at launch, but there were not much in the way of blobs.
The main reason for there not being blobs at launch was because people felt it was dangerous to be in AoE range. Instead we had large groups clashing with each other over spread out areas.
AoE Caps were publicly announced on the forums shortly after launch.
Informed players who had seen the damage AoE caps have done to past games complained they should be removed, or else players would start to blob in order to avoid AoE damage.
AoE caps were kept in place, and additional caps were added to previously uncapped skills.
Players started blobbing in order to avoid AoE damage. Blobs then became the most common occurrence in PvP, and began causing all the problems associated with them that ZOS had been previously warned about.
ZOS finally caved in and admitted to AoE caps being an issue and decided to change them in a manner that was suggested by many members of the community.

Eagerly awaiting 1.6 when the changes are actually implemented. Been waiting for months to see this fix take place.

Artemiisia · January 2015

I could imagine if collision did come, the wall of people would start stacking up at bridges

Hypertionb14_ESO · January 2015

no matter what happens, numbers will always win even with the changes.. it will just be harder to out heal incoming damage, making it possible to "whittle down" the zerg with bugbites.

i honestly dont expect this "change" to work.. i expect the one anti zerg skill they are adding might have a bigger effect.