Sword and Board: The new mandatory

Cathexis · December 2014

It would be nice if the game provided more situational access to weapons. For example its more effective to have a range weapon fighting on the wall of a keep than a melee weapon. Why not have some sort of locker in keeps that will let you swap preset skills and preset weapons.

Vandark · December 2014

"You can play as you want" was the biggest lie i´ve ever heard in an mmmo! ***** YOU ZENIMAX! F*********************K YOU!

Im NOT gonna do this anymore. i restarted game 1-2 weeks ago. There is nearly no change since release.

Shields still op.

Only effective Weapons: Shield and Restoration Staff

This was the last MMORPG i started to play. Always just lies and lies and we idiots pay for it, hoping it get better.

NO THX!

Xsorus · December 2014

p-biggipreeb18_ESO wrote: »

"You can play as you want" was the biggest lie i´ve ever heard in an mmmo! ***** YOU ZENIMAX! F*********************K YOU!

Im NOT gonna do this anymore. i restarted game 1-2 weeks ago. There is nearly no change since release.

Shields still op.

Only effective Weapons: Shield and Restoration Staff

This was the last MMORPG i started to play. Always just lies and lies and we idiots pay for it, hoping it get better.

NO THX!

You can play the way you want...Will it be effective is another story.

Also every weapon has its place..Just because you've not figured it out doesn't mean it isn't so

Galalin · December 2014

I wonder if i hold my right mouse button while reading the forums if i can block all the qq about block....

p-biggipreeb18_ESO wrote: »

"You can play as you want" was the biggest lie i´ve ever heard in an mmmo! ***** YOU ZENIMAX! F*********************K YOU!

Im NOT gonna do this anymore. i restarted game 1-2 weeks ago. There is nearly no change since release.

Shields still op.

Only effective Weapons: Shield and Restoration Staff

This was the last MMORPG i started to play. Always just lies and lies and we idiots pay for it, hoping it get better.

NO THX!

I remember you... calling ppl sword and board noobs.... stop qq'ing and /quit if its so terrible for you. One less judgemental jerk in the game makes it better for all of us.

I'm still waiting for your response to my question as to how to play a DK none noob style since you think a DK with sword and board is noobish.

P.S. can i has ur stuff

Galalin · December 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

p-biggipreeb18_ESO wrote: »

"You can play as you want" was the biggest lie i´ve ever heard in an mmmo! ***** YOU ZENIMAX! F*********************K YOU!

Im NOT gonna do this anymore. i restarted game 1-2 weeks ago. There is nearly no change since release.

Shields still op.

Only effective Weapons: Shield and Restoration Staff

This was the last MMORPG i started to play. Always just lies and lies and we idiots pay for it, hoping it get better.

NO THX!

You can play the way you want...Will it be effective is another story.

Also every weapon has its place..Just because you've not figured it out doesn't mean it isn't so

Yeah i fought a DW Dk stam build the other day... he was amazing. We had a hell of a fight until some more of my faction showed up and killed him.

Gorthax · January 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

p-biggipreeb18_ESO wrote: »

"You can play as you want" was the biggest lie i´ve ever heard in an mmmo! ***** YOU ZENIMAX! F*********************K YOU!

Im NOT gonna do this anymore. i restarted game 1-2 weeks ago. There is nearly no change since release.

Shields still op.

Only effective Weapons: Shield and Restoration Staff

This was the last MMORPG i started to play. Always just lies and lies and we idiots pay for it, hoping it get better.

NO THX!

You can play the way you want...Will it be effective is another story.

Also every weapon has its place..Just because you've not figured it out doesn't mean it isn't so

oh really? Tell me more about this theory of yours because all I ever see in pvp is Sword and Shield and bows. Staffs once in a while (outside of the healers of course and even then they still use sword and board if templar) a long with random other weapons but very rarely. I myself refuse to use sword and board simply because

A ) Melee is NOT my play style (i dont even use bows *barfs*)and I should not be forced to use it just to survive via block casting and damn near perma block.

B ) I do not agree with the crazy block reduction from it nor the reduced block cost from it which leads into perma blocking, NOR do I agree with it blocking in general blocking a ULTIMATE, you know those things that are supposed to feel, whats the word, ULTIMATE!

They need to give us more ways of countering it. Ice should have the bonus effect of snaring enemies and draining stamina AFTER block cost has been calculated. It should not be allowed to be reduced either. Much like other ES games.

If you argue that this is not the way to go (without nerfing the "set up") then you are simply wanting no ways to be countered outside of someone else picking up sword and board or rolling a NB(which you can still block while feared). As it sits right now something seriously needs to happen.

Derra · January 2015

In my opinion you would have to balance the damage in the same patch alongside "fixing" the permablock issues.

At the Moment People that don´t block potentially explode in the blink of an eye. Its not fun to be 3 shotted and would promote sneaky stealth gameplay even more than its already the case.

Apart from that they´d have to change animationcanceling aswell. Else People would just go back to: Lightattack, Skill, block in .1 seconds rinse repeat. Sadly it is not as easy as some people try to make it. Imho its a fundamental flaw of the combat system that would require major rebalancing on dmg and defense abilities.
Since that ability rebalance is coming(1.6) WITHOUT a change to blockcasting and animation cancelling i can´t see the the later upcoming changes to block be sufficient to cause a major change in playstyles.
Well i can - but the alternative is people exploding left and right

filmoretub17_ESO · January 2015

either remove the 360 blocking or make it you cant use abilities while you are blocking. This would probably fix the problem promptly.

Derra · January 2015

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

either remove the 360 blocking or make it you cant use abilities while you are blocking. This would probably fix the problem promptly.

It would not simply because you can: drop block, light attack, skill, block again in a 0.1 second time window and then hold block until the internal cooldown for light attack and skills is over.
The only thing this would change is bads getting pounded even harder than already the case. This would literally be the worst thing i could imagine given the current meta. Worse than the current status quo as it would punish weaker players and virtually change nothing for the rest.

yodased · January 2015

My question is this:

When they inevitably change something and the meta goes to 'resto staves' are the new norm will there be another thread started about that?

Anyone that is advocating for an overhaul of S+S, if they change it so that the meta is your exact particular playstyle and now you are being lambasted and called out because you are FoTM, that may not feel as nice as doing the lambasting.

There are imbalances in the game, there are of course builds and classes that right now shine above and beyond in PvP.

That is every game ever. They will continue the cycle of nerf and buff until the game is over, it will never change as new and interesting quirks show up as smart people figure out how to work currently unknown build synergies into their game.

The OP choosing specifically to not use anything other than magic attacks is completely within his right to do so, but there is a hard counter to that, its called S+S. There are clear and obvious choices for anyone to kill someone with any weapon/class in the game that he simply chooses not to use for his own reasons. That doesn't necessarily make one skill line OP, it simply means he chooses not to counter that skill line.

The point is the game isn't changing because of you, you have to change for the game.

Mojomonkeyman · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

...The OP choosing specifically to not use anything other than magic attacks is completely within his right to do so, but there is a hard counter to that, its called S+S. ...

Please explain to me what offensive maneuver s&b block is not the hardcounter against... You make it sound as if it would just be magic attacks, when in fact stamina builds i.e. suffer even more against s&b...

yodased wrote: »

.... There are clear and obvious choices for anyone to kill someone with any weapon/class in the game that he simply chooses not to use for his own reasons. That doesn't necessarily make one skill line OP, it simply means he chooses not to counter that skill line...

Your glorious insights might help me become a better player, so:

What clear and obvious choices does, lets say a stamina heavy 2h user have to kill an s&b user? To counter him like s&b counters basically all damage incoming.

Please don`t try to play smart and talk down "people" when u have prolly less experience and certainly not the facts on your side...

Domander · January 2015

Cody wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Ras_Alghul wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

They need to remove the reduction in block costs from the 1h/Shield line and move them into the Heavy Armor line. Make it so someone in full HA w/ 1h+Shield has the same costs as current, but the pajama wearing masses can't block for bupkiss.

Shhhhhh! You're going to ruin Christmas for everyone!

It's time that being in pajamas came with the drawback that it's supposed to have -- survivability.

You want good magicka management AND good damage bonuses? Then suffer being squishy. I'm beyond tired of people in LA doing the most damage and being the best tanks. The balance in this game is awful.

That's the thing, I never understood how someone wearing a dress ISN'T a glass cannon.

Do you guys realize how squishy someone in light armor is to physical damage? (that isn't blocking, and without a damage shield)

I don't think you do.

also glass cannon kind of refers to being all offense and no defense, someone in light armor that has no heals/shields will go squish.

Medium and heavy will too, though heavy will last a little longer.

people in light armor should not be tanking: either in PvP or PvE.

oh, I see, players in heavy armor shouldn't be doing damage then. (this statement is as silly as the above about light armor)

Armor is only a small part of "tanking" and you can tank well in any armor you want if you build right.

active defense (abilities) vs passive (always on) defense ... you think passive defense should be better? I don't.

The next update should make more armor more useful though.

yodased · January 2015

what counter do they have? Not being a heavy stamina 2h user and expecting to kill them.

The point is you are all grabbing onto the "play as your want" and expect that to mean "all things are equal"

Also, I am tired of people saying "play smart". What does that even mean? How does one 'play' anything? You are or you aren't.

If you are insinuating that I am not smart, well that's your opinion and that's fine. I disagree with you, but that matters not.

I am certainly not talking down to anyone, nor passing judgement of any kind.

The point is there are clear and obvious counters to S+S. You are going to have to change the way you play the game is all.

Long and short of it really, the game isn't going to change because you are unhappy about it.

Mojomonkeyman · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

what counter do they have? Not being a heavy stamina 2h user and expecting to kill them.

The point is you are all grabbing onto the "play as your want" and expect that to mean "all things are equal"

Also, I am tired of people saying "play smart". What does that even mean? How does one 'play' anything? You are or you aren't.

If you are insinuating that I am not smart, well that's your opinion and that's fine. I disagree with you, but that matters not.

I am certainly not talking down to anyone, nor passing judgement of any kind.

The point is there are clear and obvious counters to S+S. You are going to have to change the way you play the game is all.

Long and short of it really, the game isn't going to change because you are unhappy about it.

Aww, here we go.

First, if you dont want to appear as downtalking others, you should keep your tone a bit less condescending. Just because you figured out how to use s&b, resto & destro doesn`t make you an expert in anything.

Guess what, others did as well (prolly in spring 2014) and figured s&b is head and shoulders above the rest, which leads to complaints, in this thread. Those are valid.

Just because you enjoy pressing the right mouse button and feel like the rock, doesnt make its use any more skillful, balanced or fun to play against.

Again, you used terms like "you all" and stuff. Are you talking to me or some generic moron you seem to think all others are?

You stated clearly:

yodased wrote: »

There are clear and obvious choices for anyone to kill someone with any weapon/class in the game that he simply chooses not to use for his own reasons.

then, when someone asks you to ptroof that nonsense, you state:

yodased wrote: »

what counter do they have? Not being a heavy stamina 2h user and expecting to kill them.

Thats a 100% contradiction. So, first you are condescending without facts, then you paddle back with trying to put me into the same pot as the "people" u are throwing false facts against?

You might want to consider not talking out of your behind?

Derra · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

what counter do they have? Not being a heavy stamina 2h user and expecting to kill them.

The point is you are all grabbing onto the "play as your want" and expect that to mean "all things are equal"

Also, I am tired of people saying "play smart". What does that even mean? How does one 'play' anything? You are or you aren't.

If you are insinuating that I am not smart, well that's your opinion and that's fine. I disagree with you, but that matters not.

I am certainly not talking down to anyone, nor passing judgement of any kind.

The point is there are clear and obvious counters to S+S. You are going to have to change the way you play the game is all.

Long and short of it really, the game isn't going to change because you are unhappy about it.

Well basically what you are saying is:
If you encounter a S&B player you have to play S&B too or you die (little bit simplified). The counter to S&B is S&B. Thats the whole problem. Nothing trumps survivability in the current state of the game.
Afterwards it comes down to Builds. The 1v1 build wins. If both run a dedicated dueling build, skill or to some extend class is the determining factor.
For players of equal skill the most likely outcome is a draw with the current meta.
THAT SOUNDS FUN!

Anybody who thinks they can break a defensive player with s&b in a 1v1 situation is simply bad or fooling themselves.

yodased · January 2015

what false facts?

I never said I was 'better' than anyone nor did I say that I 'figured' out anything. In fact, if you check my history I openly admit I am not the best player nor anything close, so the fact that you assume I am entrenched in defending a play style in a video game is laughable.

How you take my tone is on you, these are words not inflections, so how you read it is your own personal feelings brought out.

You ask for a counter to a specific question and the answer is there is none right now, so change the way you play the game or don't play the game.

I don't make the game, I have no control over anything other than if I play or not same as you.

So by all accounts then the 'smart' people who figured this out in spring of 2014, they have moved on to something else by now right?

I'm sure they will change it and there will be another meta for you to complain about in a few weeks.

Mojomonkeyman · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

what false facts?

I never said I was 'better' than anyone nor did I say that I 'figured' out anything. In fact, if you check my history I openly admit I am not the best player nor anything close, so the fact that you assume I am entrenched in defending a play style in a video game is laughable.

How you take my tone is on you, these are words not inflections, so how you read it is your own personal feelings brought out.

You ask for a counter to a specific question and the answer is there is none right now, so change the way you play the game or don't play the game.

I don't make the game, I have no control over anything other than if I play or not same as you.

So by all accounts then the 'smart' people who figured this out in spring of 2014, they have moved on to something else by now right?

I'm sure they will change it and there will be another meta for you to complain about in a few weeks.

Are you seriously unable or just unwilling to identify your contradictions? You didnt even bother to reply with arguments. Again, generic yadda yadda, that make even more obvious that you are unable to back up your initial claim (obvious counters for any player/weapon bla).

But still, you insist on implying someone is asking you to change anything. Wrong boat, dude. I just asked you to 1) proof what you stated as fact and 2) acknowledge that there is indeed something lopsided enough to complain about.

Basically for anyone who doesnt want to roll total easymode.

yodased · January 2015

Look attack me all you want, it doesn't change the fact to you are pissing into the wind about something you have no control over.

Also to answer the question, no aoe is blockable, you have fear and ultimates and siege weapons and stealth and etc etc etc etc.

You don't want to roll total easymode so you specifically roll something that doesn't beat those that do roll easymode and complain about it?

Aren't you making it harder for yourself on purpose? So its TOO hard when you choose to roll a character that specifically is supposed to be hard?

Mojomonkeyman · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

Look attack me all you want, it doesn't change the fact to you are pissing into the wind about something you have no control over.

Also to answer the question, no aoe is blockable, you have fear and ultimates and siege weapons and stealth and etc etc etc etc.

You don't want to roll total easymode so you specifically roll something that doesn't beat those that do roll easymode and complain about it?

Aren't you making it harder for yourself on purpose? So its TOO hard when you choose to roll a character that specifically is supposed to be hard?

You are trying really hard, ha?

Nah, I like challenges. But there is a difference between challenging but doable and hopeless.

All your answers are giving pretty nice insights about you, just one, two examples:

No, not all ae is unblockable. Go morph some other skills than impulse and you will see what i mean.

Most ST ultimates can be blocked, too.

Fear is restricted to one class (the only real counter to s&b in the game btw).

The fact that you dont seem to know that and, that the level of imbalance between a cookie cutter s&b build vs any non s&b build 1on1 is beyond hopeless , is very telling.

Are you seriously implying I should use siege weapons vs s&b users? Seriously?

Please bring more clever passive-aggressive implications and assumptions to back up your arguments. Debating skills are something different, just to give you a hint.

yodased · January 2015

Insights about me? I'm open man. I totally am not a PvP-centric person, I prefer the PvE aspects of the game, mostly because the general PvP crowd and my general attitude about life are very different.

Your understanding of the skills within this game are most likely vastly superior to mine.

That being said, I PvP everyday in my attempt to get Caltrops. I don't have an issue with S+S at all. I am not even close to being the best player on Haderus forget the game, yet I'm having a great time fighting. I saw that my PvE damage dealing setup wasn't working, so I went into my tank setup. That includes S+S. This has nothing to do with me knowing the meta of a part of the game I did not play.

You chose this, you unequivocally understood what you were getting into, yet you chose it. Now you are upset about it complaining that your choice made it impossible to kill someone and expect the game to change around that choice.

Trying hard? for what? I'm just typing what comes to my brain as I always do.

Oh and yes I am 100% completely advocating using siege against one person. I do it every day, its hilariously fun.

What you don't like heavy weaponry or something?

Mojomonkeyman · January 2015

Haha, best reply so far. I like it.

No, in all seriousness, I`ve maxed every morph of every weapon in the game, most of that in pvp. Just to be able to compare. I started with min/maxing and went then to test the stuff that is considered "weaker".

I consider myself a somewhat competent player and I wanted to experience how large the discrepancy between the different setups is. And let me tell you, the difference in difficulty of play due to ressource management issues is like night and day compared to a s&b magicka based build. It is very, very fun and rewarding to play 2h or DW, tho.

We are missing out on beautiful fun weapons and playstyles just because s&b and magicka is so massively strong. And that strength compared to the rest cannot be overcome by skill between players of somewhat similar level.

Thats really bad for a pvp game, really bad balancing. I was hoping you would understand that complaining about this is a good thing and very valid.

Anyways, I think we both delivered our messages. See you around.

yodased · January 2015

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Haha, best reply so far. I like it.

No, in all seriousness, I`ve maxed every morph of every weapon in the game, most of that in pvp. Just to be able to compare. I started with min/maxing and went then to test the stuff that is considered "weaker".

I consider myself a somewhat competent player and I wanted to experience how large the discrepancy between the different setups is. And let me tell you, the difference in difficulty of play due to ressource management issues is like night and day compared to a s&b magicka based build. It is very, very fun and rewarding to play 2h or DW, tho.

We are missing out on beautiful fun weapons and playstyles just because s&b and magicka is so massively strong. And that strength compared to the rest cannot be overcome by skill between players of somewhat similar level.

Thats really bad for a pvp game, really bad balancing. I was hoping you would understand that complaining about this is a good thing and very valid.

Anyways, I think we both delivered our messages. See you around.

This post should be the entire /complaint template.

Trottz · January 2015

if a destro/resto singletarget sorc doesnt beat a 1h+s/resto singletarget sorc he/she is doing it wrong.

Davadin · January 2015

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

They need to remove the reduction in block costs from the 1h/Shield line and move them into the Heavy Armor line. Make it so someone in full HA w/ 1h+Shield has the same costs as current, but the pajama wearing masses can't block for bupkiss.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Make it happen, Brian.

Rylana · January 2015

I use a sword and shield on only one of my four characters, and on just one bar for the toon that does.

Bow/DW
Destro/Resto on two
SnB/Destro on the other.

Tell me again how its mandatory? That is 1/8th of my weapons.

Gorthax · January 2015

yodased wrote: »

Insights about me? I'm open man. I totally am not a PvP-centric person, I prefer the PvE aspects of the game, mostly because the general PvP crowd and my general attitude about life are very different.

Your understanding of the skills within this game are most likely vastly superior to mine.

That being said, I PvP everyday in my attempt to get Caltrops. I don't have an issue with S+S at all. I am not even close to being the best player on Haderus forget the game, yet I'm having a great time fighting. I saw that my PvE damage dealing setup wasn't working, so I went into my tank setup. That includes S+S. This has nothing to do with me knowing the meta of a part of the game I did not play.

You chose this, you unequivocally understood what you were getting into, yet you chose it. Now you are upset about it complaining that your choice made it impossible to kill someone and expect the game to change around that choice.

Trying hard? for what? I'm just typing what comes to my brain as I always do.

Oh and yes I am 100% completely advocating using siege against one person. I do it every day, its hilariously fun.

What you don't like heavy weaponry or something?

@yodased‌ you mentioned earlier that there are counters for everything and you are 100% correct. However, AoE is costly and does not deal damage that is considered a threat but sure it cant be blocked. The issue is the insane amounts of survivability that ONE weapon line brings you. The block casting, the perm blocks, the insane damage reductions. That is what is dominating pvp right now.

If AoE was more of a threat I think more people would actually run it (not talking impulse, screw that skill). I run AoE for that very reason! I am a sorc running as a DK support (yea I accepted my role in this game a long time ago), you know that yoda :P

As it sits right now, AoE is just a freaking joke. WoE+LF (wall of elements and lightning flood) combined are just HA! Yea it seems like a lot of damage, but majority of the time you see people stand in it without worrying. Why? Because it is so pathetic. If AoE is the counter to S&S and RS (like so many people like to suggest) than maybe we should be trying to get them to buff AoE!

My original suggestion would still help everything without nerfing anything. Make frost attacks drain stamina (sorry perma block casters) and make lightning drain magicka. Classic Elder Scrolls Style. Currently there is no counter to the counter unless you play as the thing you are trying to counter.

yodased wrote: »

The OP choosing specifically to not use anything other than magic attacks is completely within his right to do so, but there is a hard counter to that, its called S+S. There are clear and obvious choices for anyone to kill someone with any weapon/class in the game that he simply chooses not to use for his own reasons. That doesn't necessarily make one skill line OP, it simply means he chooses not to counter that skill line.

The point is the game isn't changing because of you, you have to change for the game.

I am the original poster :P and you are right, I chose not to play the BS way. However, that doesnt mean I should be penalized and constantly have the crap kicked out of me because I chose not too. By your logic, not making fun of/talking crap/dont imagine some mean tone in my voice or any tone other than questioning, the fact that I chose to play a TRUE caster (staves) with the character I want (damage and healer) then I should accept my role at either running for my life or dying?

It makes no sense. As someone who uses only staves because of my class preference in EVERY game, I am to be penalized for not wanting to use S&S? There are not enough ways around the block issue when the block issue negates all side effects of anything you throw at them UNLESS it is ground based.

You really think everyone is running around pvp using sword and shield (not everyone but the majority IS) just because it is the counter to a counter? No its because of how over the top you become in survivablity lol

I am by no means a crappy player. I have tried many different builds as a sorc using only staves and there is no upside to it, and lots of downsides. The only role it can fill is the guy in the back who gets killed, throws down support for those block casting, or runs away because the dps is just not there.

Liea · January 2015

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

The thing is, there will always be meta-gaming where certain builds are generally more successful than others. This is nothing new and will always be around because there is no such thing as a perfect balance among classes where everything will be viable.

I believe this to not be true since there was (maybe still is) an mmorpg around that had this perfect balance: Rift after its first expansion (and after some minor tweaks to some few abilities and generally reducing heals in PVP) had 4 classes,

3 of which could tank equally well
all of which could deal damage equally well
1. at melee distance
2. at range greater than melee distance
3. single target
4. AOE
3 of which could fill the support role equally well
mages could single target or group heal as good as clerics while dealing reasonable damage, yet they had considerably fewer burst heals than clerics
clerics could single target or group heal as good as mages but they did little to no damage, yet instead had tremendous burst heals
rogues could group heal like crazy - bursty and base line
No class was dominant either in PVE or in PVP
EDIT: every class could be a pet class

So, through this experience I believe classes can be very well balanced if the game designers really commit to this idea - which obviously Zenimax does not. But I sure wish they would so we could have these features Rift had:

no favorite of the month builds
all classes and builds were equally viable and well-received
you could just gather 20 players for raids without the need to check classes or builds
not much whining on the forums
great diversity in playstyles

Mumyo · January 2015

Gorthax wrote: »

That is why I am saying it seems mandatory. Especially since everyone is running around with it. Here's hoping 1.6 addresses this also I have a lot of hope for that patch. Really excited to see what it does.

I would also like for fire to stop being the dominant go to element. Somethings they could do to help with that include and are not limited to:

1) Make the frost element slow AND drain stamina (like the other ES games).

2) Make lightning drain magicka and disorient.

Just a couple hopes :P

Would make the nord usefull.

Gorthax · January 2015

Liea wrote: »

Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »

The thing is, there will always be meta-gaming where certain builds are generally more successful than others. This is nothing new and will always be around because there is no such thing as a perfect balance among classes where everything will be viable.

I believe this to not be true since there was (maybe still is) an mmorpg around that had this perfect balance: Rift after its first expansion (and after some minor tweaks to some few abilities and generally reducing heals in PVP) had 4 classes,
3 of which could tank equally well

all of which could deal damage equally well
at melee distance

at range greater than melee distance

single target

AOE

3 of which could fill the support role equally well

mages could single target or group heal as good as clerics while dealing reasonable damage, yet they had considerably fewer burst heals than clerics

clerics could single target or group heal as good as mages but they did little to no damage, yet instead had tremendous burst heals

rogues could group heal like crazy - bursty and base line

No class was dominant either in PVE or in PVP

EDIT: every class could be a pet class

So, through this experience I believe classes can be very well balanced if the game designers really commit to this idea - which obviously Zenimax does not. But I sure wish they would so we could have these features Rift had:
no favorite of the month builds

all classes and builds were equally viable and well-received

you could just gather 20 players for raids without the need to check classes or builds

not much whining on the forums

great diversity in playstyles

The only issue I see with balance in a game is that people had the taste of power and will cause an uproar if it is revoked. Just look at the reflective scales issue. They went from infinite reflections to only 4.....and they are PISSED. Vampires are getting a pass over to make them more balanced, people are pissed. Ultimates, bringing them down to make them actually feel ultimate and people are pissed (no longer is it just another skill).

I am all for balance, rift had it right with how they balanced the game. ESO, sadly, does not seem like they get the concept of balance. They say they want balance but clearly they dont know what that means. Maybe 1.6 will bring us more in line with balance. Maybe 1.6 is the balance they wish to have?

Liea · January 2015

Gorthax wrote: »

The only issue I see with balance in a game is that people had the taste of power and will cause an uproar if it is revoked. Just look at the reflective scales issue. They went from infinite reflections to only 4.....and they are PISSED. Vampires are getting a pass over to make them more balanced, people are pissed. Ultimates, bringing them down to make them actually feel ultimate and people are pissed (no longer is it just another skill).

I am all for balance, rift had it right with how they balanced the game. ESO, sadly, does not seem like they get the concept of balance. They say they want balance but clearly they dont know what that means. Maybe 1.6 will bring us more in line with balance. Maybe 1.6 is the balance they wish to have?

Yes, this happened in Rift, too, when the re-balance took place: lots of uproar and rage quitting players. But in the end it proved the right way to go as the majority of players was very happy with the outcome. I wish Zenimax had the guts to see a shift to balance through to the end, because I believe most players will in the end appreciate the move.