Sanct16 wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Besides, negate can only do so much, is static, can be countered with immovable, can be bashed out of, and all it takes is another negate to negate that negate. (which pretty much comes down to who ult dumps first, and will be a metagame that is ending with 1.6 anyway)

Negate can not be countered by anything other than an own negate. Yes, you can break free out of the stun or use immovable but nevertheless, ALL your ground target skills will be negated and feed 15% Health/Magicka to the enemy group. So as long as your group is standing in an negate, you are pretty much immune to most enemy ultimates and even the strongest non-ultimate aoe skill in groupfights (wall of elements). Negate is by far the strongest ultimate.
With 1.6 it will remain the strongest ultimate and it will all come down who has the best timed / most negates.

Ishammael wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Besides, negate can only do so much, is static, can be countered with immovable, can be bashed out of, and all it takes is another negate to negate that negate. (which pretty much comes down to who ult dumps first, and will be a metagame that is ending with 1.6 anyway)

Negate can not be countered by anything other than an own negate. Yes, you can break free out of the stun or use immovable but nevertheless, ALL your ground target skills will be negated and feed 15% Health/Magicka to the enemy group. So as long as your group is standing in an negate, you are pretty much immune to most enemy ultimates and even the strongest non-ultimate aoe skill in groupfights (wall of elements). Negate is by far the strongest ultimate.
With 1.6 it will remain the strongest ultimate and it will all come down who has the best timed / most negates.

And with the way layered negates work now, more negates = more winning, /story.

Its not hard to deal with in the open field, but one does not crown Emperors, defend Emperors, or capture scrolls in the open field. One does this in keeps, where negate is completely, off the rails insane.

Case in point: the Anonymous group chain negates. Supremely effective.

Also, I'm agreed on the request for a race change. Especially after the 1.6 update. The game and skills are utterly different from launch and I would like a chance to revisit my race choice considering the new mechanics.

Rylana wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Dunmer Master Race reporting in

Also non-vamp, because vamps are silly on a DK, tbqh. It gives you a weakness others can exploit.

inb4 muh bats. Yeah if you rely on bats to carry you in PvP, then I suggest learning a new way to play, because ult gen is going to be zero next month. All those lovely stacking AOE/Bats builds are going to be completely neutered. Building around chaining your ultimate for near constant uptime has always been stupid IMO anyway.

Also, a Dunmer with a fire ballista is... slightly more hilarious than anything else with a fire ballista. 412 damage ticks base cause the fire damage passive applies to siege as well.

Most of the people using Bats aren't building for constant uptime, they are building for a large, mobile AoE ultimate which is not affected by Negate.

But is completely worthless vs an opponent that knows to back away. AOE bat spammers rely on people being bad to have any real effect (or in tight closed areas)

Inside of a keep, or other enclosed area with little wiggle room, Ill give that much, ek vamps are pure evil.

Otherwise vs competent groups, especially open field, vamps just make for easy kills usually, if a little longwinded to take down. But you know this I am sure. An AOE bomb group running evil hunter makes short work of a vampire DK bomb group, and gains stamina back, to boot. I personally believe that morph is the most underrated fighters guild skill in the game.

Better off just dropping a standard or even a magma shell, at least those have a group benefit/synergy and arent just selfish self-preservation skills. Hell i even prefer dragon leap over standard a good deal of the time. High immediate damage, low cost, knockdown, ranged/gap closer, etc.

Besides, negate can only do so much, is static, can be countered with immovable, can be bashed out of, and all it takes is another negate to negate that negate. (which pretty much comes down to who ult dumps first, and will be a metagame that is ending with 1.6 anyway)

If you think that using a ground-based AOE is a good idea, I don't think you understand the current metagame as well as you claim to. The way negates currently interact with each other, the side with access to more total negates is nearly always going to win, and anything that feeds Absorption Fields is actively bad.

Further, there's a huge resource management gap between using Ferocious Leap and using Devouring/Clouding Swarm, since Battle Roar restoration scales based on base ultimate cost. Even though those abilities have basically the same ultimate cost (150 vs 158 in stage 4 vamp), Swarm restores substantially more resources, and the further sustainability of Devouring Swarm makes chaining it a lot more realistic.

Its true that this metagame is in some parts going away in the future, but its probably a month or more, and in the current status quo, when one of the most important groups you fight is about 40% people layering absorption fields on top of each other, using a ground based AOE is at best rarely effective, and at worse actively harmful to your group.

I think nearly everyone using Devouring Swarm would give up vampirism if there was just a relevant, AOE damaging ultimate they could use that wasn't worthless during a fight against strong, coodinated groups.

Since you claim you spend most of your time on Thornblade fighting DC these days, I appreciate how you might not understand this necessity, but trust me when I say that if you spend any substantial amount of time fighting against EP's best guilds, with the current mechanics of negate, you will find that activating Dragonknight Standard and having it be a profitable choice is actually quite difficult.

As a non-vampire DK, I love when I get to fight AD because there's actually a chance that my ultimate is useful. When Havoc and IR are involved, the only hope I have of it being helpful is to try to drop it right on top of a hostile DK standard, and hope they fail to notice mine is there.

I get what youre saying, but by far the vast majority of fights right now are decided more on who has the more ultis to just dump on the enemy, usually out stealth and capped (or initiated) by a negate chain.

When this goes away (from what i have read and seen speculated from those that seem to have more info) ulti dumps will be a thing of the past. You wont be able to lead off with one, and expect to get another in case of a needed finisher in the short duration of a bomb.

Thats if a bomb even still exists after the changes. My build has never been about reliance on ultimates (been known many times to hold my ultimate for ages just for that clutch heal in the pinch, dropping it at a seemingly random moment). Then again, the nominal DK out there relies on them completely. (as in, it becomes completely obvious from some, as they can only function when clumped by the less seasoned people just giving them easy AOE ultimate) I am actually very curious to see how these current meta bombing groups work in a months time when they can no longer rely on pretty much unlimited ult dumps to do the job for them, and they have to go back to what i do most of the time, get my kills with other class/weapon skills, etc.

The overall point I was trying to make, is that from what we know right now, none of the tactics the big guilds use are going to work after 1.6. None, because they all rely on precharged ultimates and specific drop rotations and timings. We are going to have to actually enter combat most times dry, and thats where i feel the utility of bats as they exist today is going to become more of a hindrance than a help. I wont deny the utility, god knows on a back flag trying to hold the point ive been subject to some pretty ridiculous damage numbers because of stacked swarms. I know the benefits, but I also think of the future. Actual synergies and ultimate diversity are likely to be a much bigger factor than just spamming the big three like we do today (swarm, nova, negate)

if youve ever fought IR or the red DiE group in a prolonged fight, youd know that if the fight goes on for too long, they eventually just start falling apart, especially if people spread away from them. they have to constantly bunch up, reset, and move back in because their sustain just isnt there. One magazine worth of bullets, in other words. Its a mistake I see other AD people make all the time, they literally try to ball up and smash into them, which is the worst thing you can do to a group like that. Fan out, hit the tail, or flank em out of stealth, and they melt like butter.

But back on point with DKs in general, I didnt disagree outright with Trip up there, I look at it from a different perspective. The utility of a vamp DK is outweighed by the downsides, and will be worse in the short term future. My opinion only, but one shared by several of my peers not on the forums.

Tripwyr wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Dunmer Master Race reporting in

Also non-vamp, because vamps are silly on a DK, tbqh. It gives you a weakness others can exploit.

inb4 muh bats. Yeah if you rely on bats to carry you in PvP, then I suggest learning a new way to play, because ult gen is going to be zero next month. All those lovely stacking AOE/Bats builds are going to be completely neutered. Building around chaining your ultimate for near constant uptime has always been stupid IMO anyway.

Also, a Dunmer with a fire ballista is... slightly more hilarious than anything else with a fire ballista. 412 damage ticks base cause the fire damage passive applies to siege as well.

Most of the people using Bats aren't building for constant uptime, they are building for a large, mobile AoE ultimate which is not affected by Negate.

But is completely worthless vs an opponent that knows to back away. AOE bat spammers rely on people being bad to have any real effect (or in tight closed areas)

Inside of a keep, or other enclosed area with little wiggle room, Ill give that much, ek vamps are pure evil.

Otherwise vs competent groups, especially open field, vamps just make for easy kills usually, if a little longwinded to take down. But you know this I am sure. An AOE bomb group running evil hunter makes short work of a vampire DK bomb group, and gains stamina back, to boot. I personally believe that morph is the most underrated fighters guild skill in the game.

Better off just dropping a standard or even a magma shell, at least those have a group benefit/synergy and arent just selfish self-preservation skills. Hell i even prefer dragon leap over standard a good deal of the time. High immediate damage, low cost, knockdown, ranged/gap closer, etc.

Besides, negate can only do so much, is static, can be countered with immovable, can be bashed out of, and all it takes is another negate to negate that negate. (which pretty much comes down to who ult dumps first, and will be a metagame that is ending with 1.6 anyway)

If you think that using a ground-based AOE is a good idea, I don't think you understand the current metagame as well as you claim to. The way negates currently interact with each other, the side with access to more total negates is nearly always going to win, and anything that feeds Absorption Fields is actively bad.

Further, there's a huge resource management gap between using Ferocious Leap and using Devouring/Clouding Swarm, since Battle Roar restoration scales based on base ultimate cost. Even though those abilities have basically the same ultimate cost (150 vs 158 in stage 4 vamp), Swarm restores substantially more resources, and the further sustainability of Devouring Swarm makes chaining it a lot more realistic.

Its true that this metagame is in some parts going away in the future, but its probably a month or more, and in the current status quo, when one of the most important groups you fight is about 40% people layering absorption fields on top of each other, using a ground based AOE is at best rarely effective, and at worse actively harmful to your group.

I think nearly everyone using Devouring Swarm would give up vampirism if there was just a relevant, AOE damaging ultimate they could use that wasn't worthless during a fight against strong, coodinated groups.

Since you claim you spend most of your time on Thornblade fighting DC these days, I appreciate how you might not understand this necessity, but trust me when I say that if you spend any substantial amount of time fighting against EP's best guilds, with the current mechanics of negate, you will find that activating Dragonknight Standard and having it be a profitable choice is actually quite difficult.

As a non-vampire DK, I love when I get to fight AD because there's actually a chance that my ultimate is useful. When Havoc and IR are involved, the only hope I have of it being helpful is to try to drop it right on top of a hostile DK standard, and hope they fail to notice mine is there.

I get what youre saying, but by far the vast majority of fights right now are decided more on who has the more ultis to just dump on the enemy, usually out stealth and capped (or initiated) by a negate chain.

When this goes away (from what i have read and seen speculated from those that seem to have more info) ulti dumps will be a thing of the past. You wont be able to lead off with one, and expect to get another in case of a needed finisher in the short duration of a bomb.

Thats if a bomb even still exists after the changes. My build has never been about reliance on ultimates (been known many times to hold my ultimate for ages just for that clutch heal in the pinch, dropping it at a seemingly random moment). Then again, the nominal DK out there relies on them completely. (as in, it becomes completely obvious from some, as they can only function when clumped by the less seasoned people just giving them easy AOE ultimate) I am actually very curious to see how these current meta bombing groups work in a months time when they can no longer rely on pretty much unlimited ult dumps to do the job for them, and they have to go back to what i do most of the time, get my kills with other class/weapon skills, etc.

The overall point I was trying to make, is that from what we know right now, none of the tactics the big guilds use are going to work after 1.6. None, because they all rely on precharged ultimates and specific drop rotations and timings. We are going to have to actually enter combat most times dry, and thats where i feel the utility of bats as they exist today is going to become more of a hindrance than a help. I wont deny the utility, god knows on a back flag trying to hold the point ive been subject to some pretty ridiculous damage numbers because of stacked swarms. I know the benefits, but I also think of the future. Actual synergies and ultimate diversity are likely to be a much bigger factor than just spamming the big three like we do today (swarm, nova, negate)

if youve ever fought IR or the red DiE group in a prolonged fight, youd know that if the fight goes on for too long, they eventually just start falling apart, especially if people spread away from them. they have to constantly bunch up, reset, and move back in because their sustain just isnt there. One magazine worth of bullets, in other words. Its a mistake I see other AD people make all the time, they literally try to ball up and smash into them, which is the worst thing you can do to a group like that. Fan out, hit the tail, or flank em out of stealth, and they melt like butter.

But back on point with DKs in general, I didnt disagree outright with Trip up there, I look at it from a different perspective. The utility of a vamp DK is outweighed by the downsides, and will be worse in the short term future. My opinion only, but one shared by several of my peers not on the forums.

Yes, it will be changing, in a month plus. Yes, it is beatable. But people's reliance on batswarm right now is completely understandable, because negate is the dominant force in group PVP, and its devastating in close quarters, especially when multiple negates are stacked on top of each other (since 1 negate only cancels 1 negate now, instead of negating the entire stack). The only way to fight back in that situation, on the flag, is to have AOEs that are not ground-targetted, and that means batswarm and impulse. Put another AOE in the game, and I'll use it!

This is not the case, we have not quite figured out why Negates sometimes do not negate other Negates, but it is not 1-to-1. I tested this last month by laying 2 Negates and asking a friend to cast Negate on them. Both were removed.

It seems to be a combination of possibly lag and simply excessive numbers of Negates. Either way, it doesn't always happen and we haven't been able to successfully reproduce it under a controlled environment.

Tripwyr wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Dunmer Master Race reporting in

Also non-vamp, because vamps are silly on a DK, tbqh. It gives you a weakness others can exploit.

inb4 muh bats. Yeah if you rely on bats to carry you in PvP, then I suggest learning a new way to play, because ult gen is going to be zero next month. All those lovely stacking AOE/Bats builds are going to be completely neutered. Building around chaining your ultimate for near constant uptime has always been stupid IMO anyway.

Also, a Dunmer with a fire ballista is... slightly more hilarious than anything else with a fire ballista. 412 damage ticks base cause the fire damage passive applies to siege as well.

Most of the people using Bats aren't building for constant uptime, they are building for a large, mobile AoE ultimate which is not affected by Negate.

But is completely worthless vs an opponent that knows to back away. AOE bat spammers rely on people being bad to have any real effect (or in tight closed areas)

Inside of a keep, or other enclosed area with little wiggle room, Ill give that much, ek vamps are pure evil.

Otherwise vs competent groups, especially open field, vamps just make for easy kills usually, if a little longwinded to take down. But you know this I am sure. An AOE bomb group running evil hunter makes short work of a vampire DK bomb group, and gains stamina back, to boot. I personally believe that morph is the most underrated fighters guild skill in the game.

Better off just dropping a standard or even a magma shell, at least those have a group benefit/synergy and arent just selfish self-preservation skills. Hell i even prefer dragon leap over standard a good deal of the time. High immediate damage, low cost, knockdown, ranged/gap closer, etc.

Besides, negate can only do so much, is static, can be countered with immovable, can be bashed out of, and all it takes is another negate to negate that negate. (which pretty much comes down to who ult dumps first, and will be a metagame that is ending with 1.6 anyway)

If you think that using a ground-based AOE is a good idea, I don't think you understand the current metagame as well as you claim to. The way negates currently interact with each other, the side with access to more total negates is nearly always going to win, and anything that feeds Absorption Fields is actively bad.

Further, there's a huge resource management gap between using Ferocious Leap and using Devouring/Clouding Swarm, since Battle Roar restoration scales based on base ultimate cost. Even though those abilities have basically the same ultimate cost (150 vs 158 in stage 4 vamp), Swarm restores substantially more resources, and the further sustainability of Devouring Swarm makes chaining it a lot more realistic.

Its true that this metagame is in some parts going away in the future, but its probably a month or more, and in the current status quo, when one of the most important groups you fight is about 40% people layering absorption fields on top of each other, using a ground based AOE is at best rarely effective, and at worse actively harmful to your group.

I think nearly everyone using Devouring Swarm would give up vampirism if there was just a relevant, AOE damaging ultimate they could use that wasn't worthless during a fight against strong, coodinated groups.

Since you claim you spend most of your time on Thornblade fighting DC these days, I appreciate how you might not understand this necessity, but trust me when I say that if you spend any substantial amount of time fighting against EP's best guilds, with the current mechanics of negate, you will find that activating Dragonknight Standard and having it be a profitable choice is actually quite difficult.

As a non-vampire DK, I love when I get to fight AD because there's actually a chance that my ultimate is useful. When Havoc and IR are involved, the only hope I have of it being helpful is to try to drop it right on top of a hostile DK standard, and hope they fail to notice mine is there.

I get what youre saying, but by far the vast majority of fights right now are decided more on who has the more ultis to just dump on the enemy, usually out stealth and capped (or initiated) by a negate chain.

When this goes away (from what i have read and seen speculated from those that seem to have more info) ulti dumps will be a thing of the past. You wont be able to lead off with one, and expect to get another in case of a needed finisher in the short duration of a bomb.

Thats if a bomb even still exists after the changes. My build has never been about reliance on ultimates (been known many times to hold my ultimate for ages just for that clutch heal in the pinch, dropping it at a seemingly random moment). Then again, the nominal DK out there relies on them completely. (as in, it becomes completely obvious from some, as they can only function when clumped by the less seasoned people just giving them easy AOE ultimate) I am actually very curious to see how these current meta bombing groups work in a months time when they can no longer rely on pretty much unlimited ult dumps to do the job for them, and they have to go back to what i do most of the time, get my kills with other class/weapon skills, etc.

The overall point I was trying to make, is that from what we know right now, none of the tactics the big guilds use are going to work after 1.6. None, because they all rely on precharged ultimates and specific drop rotations and timings. We are going to have to actually enter combat most times dry, and thats where i feel the utility of bats as they exist today is going to become more of a hindrance than a help. I wont deny the utility, god knows on a back flag trying to hold the point ive been subject to some pretty ridiculous damage numbers because of stacked swarms. I know the benefits, but I also think of the future. Actual synergies and ultimate diversity are likely to be a much bigger factor than just spamming the big three like we do today (swarm, nova, negate)

if youve ever fought IR or the red DiE group in a prolonged fight, youd know that if the fight goes on for too long, they eventually just start falling apart, especially if people spread away from them. they have to constantly bunch up, reset, and move back in because their sustain just isnt there. One magazine worth of bullets, in other words. Its a mistake I see other AD people make all the time, they literally try to ball up and smash into them, which is the worst thing you can do to a group like that. Fan out, hit the tail, or flank em out of stealth, and they melt like butter.

But back on point with DKs in general, I didnt disagree outright with Trip up there, I look at it from a different perspective. The utility of a vamp DK is outweighed by the downsides, and will be worse in the short term future. My opinion only, but one shared by several of my peers not on the forums.

Yes, it will be changing, in a month plus. Yes, it is beatable. But people's reliance on batswarm right now is completely understandable, because negate is the dominant force in group PVP, and its devastating in close quarters, especially when multiple negates are stacked on top of each other (since 1 negate only cancels 1 negate now, instead of negating the entire stack). The only way to fight back in that situation, on the flag, is to have AOEs that are not ground-targetted, and that means batswarm and impulse. Put another AOE in the game, and I'll use it!

This is not the case, we have not quite figured out why Negates sometimes do not negate other Negates, but it is not 1-to-1. I tested this last month by laying 2 Negates and asking a friend to cast Negate on them. Both were removed.

It seems to be a combination of possibly lag and simply excessive numbers of Negates. Either way, it doesn't always happen and we haven't been able to successfully reproduce it under a controlled environment.

It certainly doesn't seem reliable to dispel an entire blob with a single negate - the negate layering is very effective, regardless.

Something is not working as advertised.

Definitely something, we just haven't figured out what. Trust me, we're constantly testing theories, no conclusive results yet.

EDIT: And unlike certain blue guilds, if we figure it out we will share.

Tripwyr wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Dunmer Master Race reporting in

Also non-vamp, because vamps are silly on a DK, tbqh. It gives you a weakness others can exploit.

inb4 muh bats. Yeah if you rely on bats to carry you in PvP, then I suggest learning a new way to play, because ult gen is going to be zero next month. All those lovely stacking AOE/Bats builds are going to be completely neutered. Building around chaining your ultimate for near constant uptime has always been stupid IMO anyway.

Also, a Dunmer with a fire ballista is... slightly more hilarious than anything else with a fire ballista. 412 damage ticks base cause the fire damage passive applies to siege as well.

Most of the people using Bats aren't building for constant uptime, they are building for a large, mobile AoE ultimate which is not affected by Negate.

But is completely worthless vs an opponent that knows to back away. AOE bat spammers rely on people being bad to have any real effect (or in tight closed areas)

Inside of a keep, or other enclosed area with little wiggle room, Ill give that much, ek vamps are pure evil.

Otherwise vs competent groups, especially open field, vamps just make for easy kills usually, if a little longwinded to take down. But you know this I am sure. An AOE bomb group running evil hunter makes short work of a vampire DK bomb group, and gains stamina back, to boot. I personally believe that morph is the most underrated fighters guild skill in the game.

Better off just dropping a standard or even a magma shell, at least those have a group benefit/synergy and arent just selfish self-preservation skills. Hell i even prefer dragon leap over standard a good deal of the time. High immediate damage, low cost, knockdown, ranged/gap closer, etc.

Besides, negate can only do so much, is static, can be countered with immovable, can be bashed out of, and all it takes is another negate to negate that negate. (which pretty much comes down to who ult dumps first, and will be a metagame that is ending with 1.6 anyway)

If you think that using a ground-based AOE is a good idea, I don't think you understand the current metagame as well as you claim to. The way negates currently interact with each other, the side with access to more total negates is nearly always going to win, and anything that feeds Absorption Fields is actively bad.

Further, there's a huge resource management gap between using Ferocious Leap and using Devouring/Clouding Swarm, since Battle Roar restoration scales based on base ultimate cost. Even though those abilities have basically the same ultimate cost (150 vs 158 in stage 4 vamp), Swarm restores substantially more resources, and the further sustainability of Devouring Swarm makes chaining it a lot more realistic.

Its true that this metagame is in some parts going away in the future, but its probably a month or more, and in the current status quo, when one of the most important groups you fight is about 40% people layering absorption fields on top of each other, using a ground based AOE is at best rarely effective, and at worse actively harmful to your group.

I think nearly everyone using Devouring Swarm would give up vampirism if there was just a relevant, AOE damaging ultimate they could use that wasn't worthless during a fight against strong, coodinated groups.

Since you claim you spend most of your time on Thornblade fighting DC these days, I appreciate how you might not understand this necessity, but trust me when I say that if you spend any substantial amount of time fighting against EP's best guilds, with the current mechanics of negate, you will find that activating Dragonknight Standard and having it be a profitable choice is actually quite difficult.

As a non-vampire DK, I love when I get to fight AD because there's actually a chance that my ultimate is useful. When Havoc and IR are involved, the only hope I have of it being helpful is to try to drop it right on top of a hostile DK standard, and hope they fail to notice mine is there.

I get what youre saying, but by far the vast majority of fights right now are decided more on who has the more ultis to just dump on the enemy, usually out stealth and capped (or initiated) by a negate chain.

When this goes away (from what i have read and seen speculated from those that seem to have more info) ulti dumps will be a thing of the past. You wont be able to lead off with one, and expect to get another in case of a needed finisher in the short duration of a bomb.

Thats if a bomb even still exists after the changes. My build has never been about reliance on ultimates (been known many times to hold my ultimate for ages just for that clutch heal in the pinch, dropping it at a seemingly random moment). Then again, the nominal DK out there relies on them completely. (as in, it becomes completely obvious from some, as they can only function when clumped by the less seasoned people just giving them easy AOE ultimate) I am actually very curious to see how these current meta bombing groups work in a months time when they can no longer rely on pretty much unlimited ult dumps to do the job for them, and they have to go back to what i do most of the time, get my kills with other class/weapon skills, etc.

The overall point I was trying to make, is that from what we know right now, none of the tactics the big guilds use are going to work after 1.6. None, because they all rely on precharged ultimates and specific drop rotations and timings. We are going to have to actually enter combat most times dry, and thats where i feel the utility of bats as they exist today is going to become more of a hindrance than a help. I wont deny the utility, god knows on a back flag trying to hold the point ive been subject to some pretty ridiculous damage numbers because of stacked swarms. I know the benefits, but I also think of the future. Actual synergies and ultimate diversity are likely to be a much bigger factor than just spamming the big three like we do today (swarm, nova, negate)

if youve ever fought IR or the red DiE group in a prolonged fight, youd know that if the fight goes on for too long, they eventually just start falling apart, especially if people spread away from them. they have to constantly bunch up, reset, and move back in because their sustain just isnt there. One magazine worth of bullets, in other words. Its a mistake I see other AD people make all the time, they literally try to ball up and smash into them, which is the worst thing you can do to a group like that. Fan out, hit the tail, or flank em out of stealth, and they melt like butter.

But back on point with DKs in general, I didnt disagree outright with Trip up there, I look at it from a different perspective. The utility of a vamp DK is outweighed by the downsides, and will be worse in the short term future. My opinion only, but one shared by several of my peers not on the forums.

Yes, it will be changing, in a month plus. Yes, it is beatable. But people's reliance on batswarm right now is completely understandable, because negate is the dominant force in group PVP, and its devastating in close quarters, especially when multiple negates are stacked on top of each other (since 1 negate only cancels 1 negate now, instead of negating the entire stack). The only way to fight back in that situation, on the flag, is to have AOEs that are not ground-targetted, and that means batswarm and impulse. Put another AOE in the game, and I'll use it!

This is not the case, we have not quite figured out why Negates sometimes do not negate other Negates, but it is not 1-to-1. I tested this last month by laying 2 Negates and asking a friend to cast Negate on them. Both were removed.

It seems to be a combination of possibly lag and simply excessive numbers of Negates. Either way, it doesn't always happen and we haven't been able to successfully reproduce it under a controlled environment.

It certainly doesn't seem reliable to dispel an entire blob with a single negate - the negate layering is very effective, regardless.

Something is not working as advertised.

Definitely something, we just haven't figured out what. Trust me, we're constantly testing theories, no conclusive results yet.

EDIT: And unlike certain blue guilds, if we figure it out we will share.

Derra wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Jaerlach wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Dunmer Master Race reporting in

Also non-vamp, because vamps are silly on a DK, tbqh. It gives you a weakness others can exploit.

inb4 muh bats. Yeah if you rely on bats to carry you in PvP, then I suggest learning a new way to play, because ult gen is going to be zero next month. All those lovely stacking AOE/Bats builds are going to be completely neutered. Building around chaining your ultimate for near constant uptime has always been stupid IMO anyway.

Also, a Dunmer with a fire ballista is... slightly more hilarious than anything else with a fire ballista. 412 damage ticks base cause the fire damage passive applies to siege as well.

Most of the people using Bats aren't building for constant uptime, they are building for a large, mobile AoE ultimate which is not affected by Negate.

But is completely worthless vs an opponent that knows to back away. AOE bat spammers rely on people being bad to have any real effect (or in tight closed areas)

Inside of a keep, or other enclosed area with little wiggle room, Ill give that much, ek vamps are pure evil.

Otherwise vs competent groups, especially open field, vamps just make for easy kills usually, if a little longwinded to take down. But you know this I am sure. An AOE bomb group running evil hunter makes short work of a vampire DK bomb group, and gains stamina back, to boot. I personally believe that morph is the most underrated fighters guild skill in the game.

Better off just dropping a standard or even a magma shell, at least those have a group benefit/synergy and arent just selfish self-preservation skills. Hell i even prefer dragon leap over standard a good deal of the time. High immediate damage, low cost, knockdown, ranged/gap closer, etc.

Besides, negate can only do so much, is static, can be countered with immovable, can be bashed out of, and all it takes is another negate to negate that negate. (which pretty much comes down to who ult dumps first, and will be a metagame that is ending with 1.6 anyway)

If you think that using a ground-based AOE is a good idea, I don't think you understand the current metagame as well as you claim to. The way negates currently interact with each other, the side with access to more total negates is nearly always going to win, and anything that feeds Absorption Fields is actively bad.

Further, there's a huge resource management gap between using Ferocious Leap and using Devouring/Clouding Swarm, since Battle Roar restoration scales based on base ultimate cost. Even though those abilities have basically the same ultimate cost (150 vs 158 in stage 4 vamp), Swarm restores substantially more resources, and the further sustainability of Devouring Swarm makes chaining it a lot more realistic.

Its true that this metagame is in some parts going away in the future, but its probably a month or more, and in the current status quo, when one of the most important groups you fight is about 40% people layering absorption fields on top of each other, using a ground based AOE is at best rarely effective, and at worse actively harmful to your group.

I think nearly everyone using Devouring Swarm would give up vampirism if there was just a relevant, AOE damaging ultimate they could use that wasn't worthless during a fight against strong, coodinated groups.

Since you claim you spend most of your time on Thornblade fighting DC these days, I appreciate how you might not understand this necessity, but trust me when I say that if you spend any substantial amount of time fighting against EP's best guilds, with the current mechanics of negate, you will find that activating Dragonknight Standard and having it be a profitable choice is actually quite difficult.

As a non-vampire DK, I love when I get to fight AD because there's actually a chance that my ultimate is useful. When Havoc and IR are involved, the only hope I have of it being helpful is to try to drop it right on top of a hostile DK standard, and hope they fail to notice mine is there.

I get what youre saying, but by far the vast majority of fights right now are decided more on who has the more ultis to just dump on the enemy, usually out stealth and capped (or initiated) by a negate chain.

When this goes away (from what i have read and seen speculated from those that seem to have more info) ulti dumps will be a thing of the past. You wont be able to lead off with one, and expect to get another in case of a needed finisher in the short duration of a bomb.

Thats if a bomb even still exists after the changes. My build has never been about reliance on ultimates (been known many times to hold my ultimate for ages just for that clutch heal in the pinch, dropping it at a seemingly random moment). Then again, the nominal DK out there relies on them completely. (as in, it becomes completely obvious from some, as they can only function when clumped by the less seasoned people just giving them easy AOE ultimate) I am actually very curious to see how these current meta bombing groups work in a months time when they can no longer rely on pretty much unlimited ult dumps to do the job for them, and they have to go back to what i do most of the time, get my kills with other class/weapon skills, etc.

The overall point I was trying to make, is that from what we know right now, none of the tactics the big guilds use are going to work after 1.6. None, because they all rely on precharged ultimates and specific drop rotations and timings. We are going to have to actually enter combat most times dry, and thats where i feel the utility of bats as they exist today is going to become more of a hindrance than a help. I wont deny the utility, god knows on a back flag trying to hold the point ive been subject to some pretty ridiculous damage numbers because of stacked swarms. I know the benefits, but I also think of the future. Actual synergies and ultimate diversity are likely to be a much bigger factor than just spamming the big three like we do today (swarm, nova, negate)

if youve ever fought IR or the red DiE group in a prolonged fight, youd know that if the fight goes on for too long, they eventually just start falling apart, especially if people spread away from them. they have to constantly bunch up, reset, and move back in because their sustain just isnt there. One magazine worth of bullets, in other words. Its a mistake I see other AD people make all the time, they literally try to ball up and smash into them, which is the worst thing you can do to a group like that. Fan out, hit the tail, or flank em out of stealth, and they melt like butter.

But back on point with DKs in general, I didnt disagree outright with Trip up there, I look at it from a different perspective. The utility of a vamp DK is outweighed by the downsides, and will be worse in the short term future. My opinion only, but one shared by several of my peers not on the forums.

Yes, it will be changing, in a month plus. Yes, it is beatable. But people's reliance on batswarm right now is completely understandable, because negate is the dominant force in group PVP, and its devastating in close quarters, especially when multiple negates are stacked on top of each other (since 1 negate only cancels 1 negate now, instead of negating the entire stack). The only way to fight back in that situation, on the flag, is to have AOEs that are not ground-targetted, and that means batswarm and impulse. Put another AOE in the game, and I'll use it!

This is not the case, we have not quite figured out why Negates sometimes do not negate other Negates, but it is not 1-to-1. I tested this last month by laying 2 Negates and asking a friend to cast Negate on them. Both were removed.

It seems to be a combination of possibly lag and simply excessive numbers of Negates. Either way, it doesn't always happen and we haven't been able to successfully reproduce it under a controlled environment.

It certainly doesn't seem reliable to dispel an entire blob with a single negate - the negate layering is very effective, regardless.

Something is not working as advertised.

Definitely something, we just haven't figured out what. Trust me, we're constantly testing theories, no conclusive results yet.

EDIT: And unlike certain blue guilds, if we figure it out we will share.

I have never tested myself but experienced this very issue. I alwas thought it had to do sth. with negate being a pulsing field not having an opening hit but a short delay because of the animation.
If the enemy negate just happens to pulse in your animation time yours is gone and theirs stays.

JDar wrote: »

Khajiit is best for carpets and also annoying rp talk

Sanct16 wrote: »

AsweetRoll wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

I say Breton, heck Breton for anything in this game.

Racial passive for spell resist- surviability

Racial passive for spell cost decrease- cast GDB and Scales cheaper.

- Racial Passive for more max magicka

The light armor racial passive is just a bonus

Right now bretons are good at everything. There isn't a role they can't do, DK use class abilities a lot, you give up a little hp for far more use of those abilities with more magic and less cost. The spell resist means you don't need jewelry for that so it frees up other spots.

Don't get me wrong other races do well in their roles too, it just seems Bretons fit about anywhere as their racials are useful in pretty much every scenario, kinda like a jack of all trades race. When in doubt you can't go wrong with a Breton

Dark Elf is the one and only choice for a DK who is going to pvp. The passives are too good to pass up for anything else!

Dark elf AND Imperial, imperials with arena and valkyn can hit 3.5k health. 2.3k stamina, 2.5k magika. Dark elf #1 though.

I think you exagerrate a bit. I doubt you will manage to get those stats rather 3.5k/2.4k/2k. And Valkyn isn't needed. Every undaunted with stats as 1 piece works just as good.
Dark Elf passives are far better. 9% Magicka ~ 12% Hp imo so you just get 4% Stamina. The hp proc is nice to have but I value 7% fire damage + 1575 fire resistance way more.