Pre-Owned Items - A possible solution to the BoP dilemma

Rodario · December 2014

The BoP Dilemma:

Items such as the undaunted shoulder pieces regularly incite discussions about the merits of the BoP system in ESO.

On the one hand, players who have not completed the relevant content should not be able to just buy these rewards and sport the same attire as someone who did. On the other, a player with bad RNG luck may complete the relevant content countless times and never receive the desired item.

This is exaggerated by ESO's individual loot tables and random traits on dropped items (As compared to BoP systems in other MMOs).

When random drops are accessible to the whole group, not generated for each individual player, chances are at least someone in the group has some use for the item (If it's more than one, that's where rolling for it comes in). With individual loot tables, group member A may receive an item group member B has been looking for for weeks, but for which A has no use except deconstruction.

The random traits mean when a player (finally) gets the item they desire, it very likely will not sport the desired armor weight, or trait.

A possible Solution

Removing BoP altogether is certainly not an ideal solution. Neither is implementing a token system, as many players (myself included) feel it takes the fun out of the game if you know exactly when you're going to get the item you desire.

Instead, I suggest a compromise between BoP and BoE, The Second-Hand System:

Items that have been bound to a player before, can now be given/sold to other players. As soon as the item leaves the inventory of the original owner, it receives a "worn" tag and all its stats, bonuses and effects are reduced by 5%.

To not over complicate things, this will only happen upon the first change of ownership, so there will not be "worn worn worn worn" items with a 20% stat decrease.

I feel a 5% decrease is slight enough for the item to still be valuable, but significant enough for original owners to not feel their work has been for nothing.

Thanks for reading, discuss.

Moonshadow66 · December 2014

As I've never seen "BoP" or "BoE" before and I cannot get an idea of what it possibly could mean since English is not my language, I need to ask you before I continue to read: what does it mean?

Rodario · December 2014

Raygee wrote: »

As I've never seen "BoP" or "BoE" before and I cannot get an idea of what it possibly could mean since English is not my language, I need to ask you before I continue to read: what does it mean?

@Raygee‌ Bind on Pickup / Bind on Equip. Basically BoP means the item is bound to you as soon as you loot it, while BoE items will only become bound to you once you wear them.

Moonshadow66 · December 2014

Rodario wrote: »

Raygee wrote: »

As I've never seen "BoP" or "BoE" before and I cannot get an idea of what it possibly could mean since English is not my language, I need to ask you before I continue to read: what does it mean?

@Raygee‌ Bind on Pickup / Bind on Equip. Basically BoP means the item is bound to you as soon as you loot it, while BoE items will only become bound to you once you wear them.

Cool, thanks for the explanation

Reading the full words, I know what it is then^^

ThatHappyCat · December 2014

Don't like the idea. I also don't see why people with money shouldn't be able to buy things off people who run the content (and do note, people do have to actually run the content to get those items into the market), they made their money off somewhere: whether it be running some other content for lucrative items or just having played for a long long time.

The whole "you haven't earned this particular item by running the content" argument is ludicrous to me. Yes, I didn't actually build this car from scratch myself, why does that mean I didn't earn it if I brought it using money I made saving lives as a paramedic?

Moonshadow66 · December 2014

Now after I could read it, I gave you an agree since I think it's a very good idea.
I haven't started with the Undaunted Pledges yet, but I know many others have the problem to not get certain parts of an armor set, so this would be the solution.

MornaBaine · December 2014

Those who can, do. Those who can't, buy. That's always been the way of the world and I've never felt that was a bad system. What's the point of your character being a b@d@$$ treasure hunter if they are unable to sell the treasures they fight so hard to acquire except to that cheap guy in the matketplace who's going to only give them a fraction of its worth? In short, I HATE BoP stuff. Generally it's nothing I want or just (even more often) can't use but I can't even gift it to a guildie who COULD use it. Annoys the Hades out of me!

Menelaos · December 2014

As someone who is currently trying to get the Vicious Ophidian set - and then with reasonable traits on it - I know how frustrating the BoP combined with the trait lottery can be.

I find the latter, the trait lottery, most annoying, because it does not make any sense in some cases. I mean Training and Exploration traits for a Vet 14 piece of gear? To me it's a useless mechanic in the game that only generates grind and Frustration, where it simply isn't necessary.

I would very much appreciate the abolishment of this useless piece of mechanic and support a system somewhere in between bind on pickup and bind on equip. Having a "worn" tag could be one solution, losing a Level of Quality (e.g. from purple to blue) could be another. You could even Change its style to "Worn Motif" from which you then could "repair" it to normal with certain new style mats. There are enough ways to implement this.

Generally I am with anybody who shouts "let players earn their stuff" but then again with the game economy as is you could also argue to let this stuff be sold in any given trade guild.

However, Zeni still has their "Item seasons" thing in the making so one may hope that they'll address this issue.

Nestor · December 2014

If I fought for it, or created it, I should be able to do what I want with it.

Rodario · December 2014

I know many of us would like to do away with BoP altogether, but I think it's safe to assume that's not gonna happen.

I can relate to both sides of the argument and while I'm usually for top tier items being BoP, ESO's unusual loot and itemization systems have me leaning towards getting rid of it.

Therefore I'm proposing this compromise.

Circuitous · December 2014

I'm honestly not sure if BoP adds enough to justify the frustration it can cause.

Rodario · December 2014

Menelaos wrote: »

However, Zeni still has their "Item seasons" thing in the making so one may hope that they'll address this issue.

One may hope. Being unfamiliar with the specifics of how seasonal gear will work, it may very well be possible, even beneficial, for both systems to co-exist.

olemanwinter · December 2014

I never had a problem with the badges/tokens system.

Shader_Shibes · December 2014

I despise BoP with a passion. Quite happily pay a fee or whatever, anything, to remove a BoP from a item.

dharbert · December 2014

Bind-On-Pickup should be removed from the game entirely. It would add a huge boost to the game economy. Just like in the real world, those who can, do. Those who can't, buy. There are those who, for whatever reason, can't or won't do trials, DSA arena, etc... and would rather just be able to purchase the gear that you get from these areas.

If you've ran veteran dungeons a hundred times and you've got 5 of the same exact monster helm and shoulders, what are you going to do with them? You can't sell it, and you can't trade it. You just throw it away or decon it. I'd much rather make a nice amount of gold from it by selling it to other players who want these items, but are unable to obtain them for whatever reason.

Artemiisia · December 2014

In another mmo, they have a system where there is crate after boss, like normal in eso.

How they made it different was, the need/greed/pass system

that means, everybody in group gets a chance to get it, for the same amount of work.

if they dont have it and need it, they choose Need, and if more do that, the RNG chooses which gets its.

if you dont Need it, but want it for mats/sell Greed, that means if someone chooses Need, it goes to that person.

Pass, well yeah dont need explaining

Artemiisia · December 2014

though I dont think its a dilemma anyways.

manny254 · December 2014

They more or less have copied diablo 3's pargon 2.0 system, but missed the good BoP system. When you get a BoP item you you have the option to give it to anyone in your party when you get the item. There is a limited time to do this, and the account names of the people who where in your party is listed on the item.

eliisra · December 2014

Pretty much all mmorpg's on the market have a currency/token system. ESO need it to, combined with daily and weekly quests (trials, dungeons and even delves for solo'ers) awarding it.

Why? Because it works well. Gives you a goal. Because rng always sucks so much and heavily punishes the unlucky. You might never get a desired item, when rng is the only loot distribution system the game has. This while the lucky guys get all their stuff way to early, than looses interests and incentive.

ESO comes with the worse loot distribution/reward system I have ever encountered since I started playing online games. Trials and PvP leader-boards, VR Dungeons sets and the cursed Undaunted chests. All is ridiculous rng, with no guarantee of ever getting the stuff you wish for. I can sort of excuse it, considered how young ESO is. But they need to start thinking about these things.

Point is, developing cool gear that's impossible to obtain makes no sense. It's only a dangling carrot to a certain point, eventually people will say screw it and walk away feeling bummed out. It's such a poor choice when it comes to making customers happy.

DDuke · December 2014

Artemiisia wrote: »

In another mmo, they have a system where there is crate after boss, like normal in eso.

How they made it different was, the need/greed/pass system

that means, everybody in group gets a chance to get it, for the same amount of work.

if they dont have it and need it, they choose Need, and if more do that, the RNG chooses which gets its.

if you dont Need it, but want it for mats/sell Greed, that means if someone chooses Need, it goes to that person.

Pass, well yeah dont need explaining

Agreed.

I believe some kind of need/greed/pass system should be created, if not for Undaunted items, then atleast for content like Sanctum Ophidia (which you are running with people you know, who most likely wouldn't "ninja" items).

This has the following benefits:

Larger loot table, meaning less useless items.
Ability to determine who gets what. E.g. a tank piece drops, you decide to give it to your tank.
From my personal MMO experiences, I can tell that this creates a greater sense of community as well, when you all get to see the loot & "reward" people with it.

Draxys · December 2014

BoP blows

maryriv · May 2015

BoP is terrible, none of the best in slot stuff is BoP anyway with the exception of Masters which is pretty simple to get anyway. Why they still have it in this game is beyond me and silly.

I refuse to do pledges anymore for this very reason.

Emma_Overload · May 2015

OP's argument is wack because so much of the content is rigged so that many players will never be able to complete it no matter how hard they try or how well they play. Look at this crap I ran into doing the Direfrost Keep pledge the other day:

Multiple pressure plates! After I'd fought my way through a zillion mobs like I was frickin' Conan and Gandalf rolled into one, I get slapped in the face with a group gate. Endgame content like Trials, of course, are even worse than this with up to 12 pads. If ZoS is going to wall off certain dungeons from a large segment of the player base, the LEAST they could do is make all gear BoE so that solo players can grind for the gold to buy it in the dungeons and delves that we're "allowed" to play!

Rodario · May 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

OP's argument is wack because so much of the content is rigged so that many players will never be able to complete it no matter how hard they try or how well they play. Look at this crap I ran into doing the Direfrost Keep pledge the other day:

Multiple pressure plates! After I'd fought my way through a zillion mobs like I was frickin' Conan and Gandalf rolled into one, I get slapped in the face with a group gate. Endgame content like Trials, of course, are even worse than this with up to 12 pads. If ZoS is going to wall off certain dungeons from a large segment of the player base, the LEAST they could do is make all gear BoE so that solo players can grind for the gold to buy it in the dungeons and delves that we're "allowed" to play!

Having never heard or read the term "wack" in a non-satirical context, I am not quite sure if you agree with my argument @emma_eunjung.

In any case, I don't recall anyone ever complaining about T1,2,3... sets being gated raid rewards in WoW (and we are talking about 40 players here, later 25, not 4 or 12). They were also BoP, but in a group loot system instead of individual drops, and without random traits of course, that one is just stupid.

Whenever any other loot system has been intruduced in any game, I always thought "Why fix what ain't broke?".

I agree with the minimum group size gate being idiotic. A necessary group size, up to a defined maximum, should be defined by the difficulty of the encounter, not just enforced. If a group thinks they can beat the boss with less than a full group, why stop them from trying?

This is especially true for Craglorn. Forced minumum group size for questing... really?!? If I think I can solo it, why shouldn't I be allowed to try? Instead we have to find a number of other players who are a) on the same quest stage and/or b) willing to do the quest for rewards that are so useless, they might as well not exist at all.

Oh well, this thread is ancient and I don't even play anymore since TU, so what do I care.

Artemiisia · May 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

OP's argument is wack because so much of the content is rigged so that many players will never be able to complete it no matter how hard they try or how well they play. Look at this crap I ran into doing the Direfrost Keep pledge the other day:

Multiple pressure plates! After I'd fought my way through a zillion mobs like I was frickin' Conan and Gandalf rolled into one, I get slapped in the face with a group gate. Endgame content like Trials, of course, are even worse than this with up to 12 pads. If ZoS is going to wall off certain dungeons from a large segment of the player base, the LEAST they could do is make all gear BoE so that solo players can grind for the gold to buy it in the dungeons and delves that we're "allowed" to play!

its a group dungeon