AoE cap is not the problem!

Subtomik · December 2014

Columba wrote: »

How about both? Nerf the ability to chimp spam and remove aoe caps. Perhaps that will favor players who don't rely on the pulse monkey spamming.

Im not saying I disagree even per say, I mean heck look at all the people who switched from pulse to elemental wall after the range nerf.

But I promise you, drop the cap and no one is going to want to be without arms length of each other after a week.

It will bring about a much more "skirmish" feel. and when groups engage, it will be more in lines instead of in balls.

Agrippa_Invisus · December 2014

Subtomik wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

How about both? Nerf the ability to chimp spam and remove aoe caps. Perhaps that will favor players who don't rely on the pulse monkey spamming.

Im not saying I disagree even per say, I mean heck look at all the people who switched from pulse to elemental wall after the range nerf.

But I promise you, drop the cap and no one is going to want to be without arms length of each other after a week.

It will bring about a much more "skirmish" feel. and when groups engage, it will be more in lines instead of in balls.

In DAoC, there were no AE caps.

There was a situation where a guild group of 8 wiped a literal, no crap, 100 man raid in the open field. Why? They all had the leader on follow, were in a tight ball, and didn't react quickly due to being mentally checked out. I saw it happen and we all laughed it up. Immediately after reforming, the 100 man raid ran in multiple, spread out groups to keep it from happening again and lo and behold, they squashed that guild group flat -- several others as well.

The guild group I ran with didn't use AEs at all (aside from mez/sleep spells), and was considered completely viable. Why? We single target assisted down. We stayed spread out, keeping healers/squishies away from the damage dealers so an AE bomb squad couldn't try to take the entire group down at once. Typically you'd never find more than 3 members in the range of a single AE spell. More commonly 2 (Paladin and Protectee, or 2 of the melee DPS focusing a target while the third kept the enemy healer busy).

8 man guild groups could chew through (as mentioned earlier) up to 100 man zergs if the zerg played braindead. Or lost the initiative completely. At the same time, the 8 man could get smashed flat by a larger group playing even a little bit smart (stay spread, keep healers away from the fighting, keep mez curers away from the fight).

Our greatest massacres were /always/ when the larger team balled up tight and all got mezzed at one time, and the AE bomb squads with Enchanters, Ice Wizards, or Runemasters counted on the same thing. Then we could pick out the soft targets at our leisure and then the hard targets couldn't hurt us through our healing. For all the hilarious wipes we put on full raids, there were times our team just got stepped on because either a) we played it dumb, or b) the zerg played it smart and that spells disaster for the outnumbered squad.

Know what was absolute hell to deal with? A skirmish line of archers. You had to catch them one at a time and you were taking heavy fire the whole way. Your guardian member protects one healer, just to see the other turned into a pincushion. Wait... what's the big complaint the bomb groups in ESO are having issues with....?

Sanct16 · December 2014

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

I think that if you lift the cap the "pulse zerg" will just kill faster.... how does this make sense? Or is it the pulse zerg that's recommending the removal of AoE cap?

If you are part of the pulse zerg you will barely hit more than 6 targets because usually your enemies aren't stacked up. On the other hand every aoe against the pulse zerg would hit all 24 people in its range without caps. The damage output would go up only slightly while the incoming damage would increase by a factor of 2-4. Of course AoE heals should remain at 6 targets to not boost the healing done to an incredible amount.

Trottz · December 2014

well organized grps will kill faster. they will remain stacked since synergies and heals require you close. pvp like pve. ugly. might erase lag though if you uncap heals too ofc

character collision would be the adult solution. too sad so many gamers skipped important real life lessons.

Sanct16 · December 2014

Without aoe caps those super tight stacked groups will be free ap. If they continue to run like this... fine with me. They shouldn't complain tho after they got killed by 2 players.

Jaerlach · December 2014

I feel like part of the problem is that this game lacks a spell type I would expect to see completely.

We have projectiles with AOE splash damage (crystal blast), we have ground-target aoes at distance (lightning splash), in a path (encase, wall of elements), point-blank aoes (impulse), etc.

We don't have a free-fire projectile that explodes for full aoe damage when it hits any target - basically, we don't have a fireball. It feels like that's what we're missing - an explosive aoe that hits all targets for the same damage at range. The kind of thing you'd target at the templar to splash to the nearby DKs without being reflected, and that would much more effectively let you AOE a clump without having to have them be stationary or charge into the middle of them.

Koensol · December 2014

Jaerlach wrote: »

I feel like part of the problem is that this game lacks a spell type I would expect to see completely.

We have projectiles with AOE splash damage (crystal blast), we have ground-target aoes at distance (lightning splash), in a path (encase, wall of elements), point-blank aoes (impulse), etc.

We don't have a free-fire projectile that explodes for full aoe damage when it hits any target - basically, we don't have a fireball. It feels like that's what we're missing - an explosive aoe that hits all targets for the same damage at range. The kind of thing you'd target at the templar to splash to the nearby DKs without being reflected, and that would much more effectively let you AOE a clump without having to have them be stationary or charge into the middle of them.

Definately! This is a hige part of the problem. In warhammer online people would think twice before balling up, because there were bright wizards and sorcerers out there who could nuke your ass into oblivion. The few ranged AoE's we have are either dots or simply miss the full nuking power to help bust a zerg. Skills like blazing spear and scorched earth are awsome and very usefull, but its not enough to make a zerg care that much.

Keron · December 2014

All ground targeted AoEs we have provide a DoT mechanism that requires you to stay where it has landed. No one does that. Zerg buster skill wanted? change one or two to cash in immediately. No more "does pathetic damage over 8 seconds, "patheticising" damage to readily ignorable blips that no one will care about". Fire off scorched earth or lightning field and all within the circle get 500 damage immediately. No telegraph, no nothing. No balling.

Edit: make it cost enough resources to not have it be usefull 1v1.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · December 2014

The entire point of AoE is that the effect occurs over an area and can't be blocked, or otherwise mitigated. (unless you are using stamina AoE for some stupid reason).

Mitigating AoE removes the point of AoE.

Tripwyr · December 2014

Removing or increasing the AoE cap on damage spells without removing/increasing the AoE cap on healing spells will make stacking less effective and reduce balling.

Most good groups already limit their balling because it is pretty easy to wipe a ball without getting wiped yourself.

Xsorus · December 2014

I've seen Zerg ball groups get screwed over by a single meat bag catapult dr the wrong time. If you remove caps, even remove the healing caps there is no way in hell you'd be able to keep up with the damage that could be done to you with a meatbag in the area. People didn't stack in daoc nor warhammer if they were smart, they'll do the same here after the caps are removed

Cody · December 2014

Columba wrote: »

How about both? Nerf the ability to chimp spam and remove aoe caps. Perhaps that will favor players who don't rely on the pulse monkey spamming.

Yes.

Everyone listen to Columba.

If you don't, you are a milk drinker

Cody · December 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I've seen Zerg ball groups get screwed over by a single meat bag catapult dr the wrong time. If you remove caps, even remove the healing caps there is no way in hell you'd be able to keep up with the damage that could be done to you with a meatbag in the area. People didn't stack in daoc nor warhammer if they were smart, they'll do the same here after the caps are removed

This guy also gets it.

Columba · December 2014

Just say no.....to chimp spamming.

ferzalrwb17_ESO · December 2014

Because impulse can't be mitigated and can be chimped so rapidly without needing to worry about your surroundings at all it becomes the highest damage skill in the game.

The chimpblobs spam impulse regardless of whether they're hitting anything or not. In between pulsespam and batspam they'll blob up in a corner and spam springs to generate ulti and lag the entire server to ensure no one can hit anything. Rinse, repeat.

Blockade spam requires some aiming and thought so is not as effective generally.

JaJaLuka · December 2014

Gorthax wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

nerf immovable.....r u crazy?

all armor type skills should be tied to 5 pieces. To use them without using that armor just seems silly. My opinion

I will ask a night blade to specifically target you with fear every time they see you and see if you change your tune

. Immovable is the ONLY thing that counters it.

phreatophile · December 2014

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

nerf immovable.....r u crazy?

all armor type skills should be tied to 5 pieces. To use them without using that armor just seems silly. My opinion

I will ask a night blade to specifically target you with fear every time they see you and see if you change your tune . Immovable is the ONLY thing that counters it.

It makes no sense for a skill specificly tied to an armor type to be usable with out having to wear that armor type. You can cc break fear, BTW. Actually, you have to break fear, or it can be used on you again immediately

If they did follow logic and fix this one maybe they'd be obliged to fix medium armor's lackluster armor skill. Flat out useless compared to Immovable and annulment.

Firellight · December 2014

Teargrants wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

You folks do realize that none of you have any meaningful insight into the inner workings of ESO that could apply to a discussion about wether AoE caps cause technical problems or not, right?

Because the devs themselves saying that the AoE cap causes technical problems is in no way 'meaningful' or 'insightful', right?

So why are they still in the game? Why not temporarily disable AoE caps until they finish whatever "fix" they're coming up with, like forward camps?

Teargrants · December 2014

Caps are still in the game because the devs are still working on removing them in a manner that keeps with their vision of pvp. They've already stated they intend to remove cap on dmg, retain cap on healing, and devise a balance for ult gen. It isn't any great mystery, unless the devs were flat out lying dmg caps will be gone at some point in the future.

Galalin · December 2014

Koensol wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Also, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I think AoE across the board, including Impulse, needs a buff. I also think ult genration should go back to how it was and AoE caps should be removed.

That's how you bust zergs and it's why the game was less zergy in beta and shortly after launch.

But how do you prevent people usong batswarm and bolt escape from soloing entire raid groups? Their ult will be full in no time and it will be more bat spamming all over.

If your in a raid thats blobed thats the point... if your raid is spread out there is no way for them to do this

Teargrants · December 2014

Galalin, I don't think you understand, ppl want to be able to just turn off the lights and stand in red. Just as in real life, it is the penultimate strategy in warfare and anything that interrupts it is OP.

Galalin · December 2014

Teargrants wrote: »

Galalin, I don't think you understand, ppl want to be able to just turn off the lights and stand in red. Just as in real life, it is the penultimate strategy in warfare and anything that interrupts it is OP.

*Sigh* i feared this much.

Koensol · December 2014

Teargrants wrote: »

Galalin, I don't think you understand, ppl want to be able to just turn off the lights and stand in red. Just as in real life, it is the penultimate strategy in warfare and anything that interrupts it is OP.

@Galalin @Teargrants If both of you read my follow-up post to the one you quoted, you'd know that there are situations where stacking up, or being close to your groupmates is inevitable. But I also suggested to limit ult gain to 6 targets max, while removing AoE cap for damage. But it seems reading is hard.

Galalin · December 2014

Koensol wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Also, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I think AoE across the board, including Impulse, needs a buff. I also think ult genration should go back to how it was and AoE caps should be removed.

That's how you bust zergs and it's why the game was less zergy in beta and shortly after launch.

But how do you prevent people usong batswarm and bolt escape from soloing entire raid groups? Their ult will be full in no time and it will be more bat spamming all over.

Again i answered your question... reading is fairly simple try it sometime.

You asked about soloing a raid group... i answered. Reading your further posts does not pertain to this. Unless a raid group stands in a choke point to allow themselves to be solo'ed in which case they deserve it... again avoid blobbing and a sorc streak/bats wont solo a raid.

Koensol · December 2014

Teargrants wrote: »

Galalin, I don't think you understand, ppl want to be able to just turn off the lights and stand in red. Just as in real life, it is the penultimate strategy in warfare and anything that interrupts it is OP.

Galalin wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Galalin, I don't think you understand, ppl want to be able to just turn off the lights and stand in red. Just as in real life, it is the penultimate strategy in warfare and anything that interrupts it is OP.

*Sigh* i feared this much.

@galalin I refered to this post with its cynical tone. If you'd read my other post, just below the one you initially quoted, you'd know I am actually against AoE cap and that I already made a suggestion.

Nijjion · December 2014

Lava_Croft wrote: »

You folks do realize that none of you have any meaningful insight into the inner workings of ESO that could apply to a discussion about wether AoE caps cause technical problems or not, right?

Well if a game from 2002 can do it without AoE caps I think a game from 2014 can.