AoE cap is not the problem!

TiberiusTryton · December 2014

I do not believe AoE cap is the most broken part. Keep the cap! Give us a mitigation to AoE more than those worthless bubbles or a block to it, preferably in the world guilds so everyone has a chance to use it. Every build in an MMO should be able to counter. Immovable + AOE + Rapid maneuver is not. Nerf immovable (I use it too) and give us AoE resistance. That is all.

Layenem · December 2014

AoE resistance won't happen. You'll see players completely negate PvE boss mechanics with it. Just how it is.

Sallington · December 2014

Maybe even a AOE resistance trait for crafting gear would help. +5-10% resistance per piece of gear would go a long way if you stacked it. It could have it's uses in PVE as well.

JaJaLuka · December 2014

Disagree with nerfing immovable. The AOE effect just needs to function differently in PvP (Impulse at least).

Sallington · December 2014

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Disagree with nerfing immovable. The AOE effect just needs to function differently in PvP (Impulse at least).

It just needs to not generate so much freaking ultimate.

Layenem · December 2014

Sallington wrote: »

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Disagree with nerfing immovable. The AOE effect just needs to function differently in PvP (Impulse at least).

It just needs to not generate so much freaking ultimate.

100% agree! I didn't think them making ANY crit generate ultimate was a good idea from the beginning. Ultimate was, originally, supposed to function off of how well you performed in a fight. I guess they couldn't determine who performed well or not so they made Ultimates just as useable as basic abilities (which, again, were supposed to be used scarcely and not "on cooldown" as most players use them)

eliisra · December 2014

It is one of the problems, when it comes to bad performance.

When there's a huge cluster of players spamming AoE and animations, the game needs to calculate which 6 will be taking dmg, heals or secondary effects. This adds more pressure on server capacity, eats memory and causes performance dips, delays and lag.

This isn't some conspiracy theory made up by players, the info comes directly from ZoS staff.

Sanct16 · December 2014

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

I do not believe AoE cap is the most broken part. Keep the cap! Give us a mitigation to AoE more than those worthless bubbles or a block to it, preferably in the world guilds so everyone has a chance to use it. Every build in an MMO should be able to counter. Immovable + AOE + Rapid maneuver is not. Nerf immovable (I use it too) and give us AoE resistance. That is all.

How would it help to kill 24 people standing on top of each other if they not only had a 75% dodgechance to aoe but also take less damage from aoe? Really struggeling to see the benefit that would bring.
Removing AoE caps however would solve that problem as they would take far more damage from enemy AoE than they do now. People would have to spread out.

TiberiusTryton · December 2014

Can you explain the AoE dodge chance to me, maybe I am unaware of it. And I thought about the cap thing but I also imagined these same groups running around with no AoE cap..... seems it would be worse.

pmn100b16_ESO · December 2014

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

Can you explain the AoE dodge chance to me, maybe I am unaware of it. And I thought about the cap thing but I also imagined these same groups running around with no AoE cap..... seems it would be worse.

It wouldn't be worse, the outcome would just be quicker, so the lag (if any) would not last so long. But if AoE caps are removed, I think they'd have to address ulti gain at the same time.

Valnas · December 2014

the AoE cap is the 75% dodge chance. It's why a zerg zergs instead of sizzles and melts.

Roechacca · December 2014

Someone said the problem occurred after the lighting patch .

Thechemicals · December 2014

nerf immovable.....r u crazy?

Sleep · December 2014

Not it's not the problem but I still want it removed.

Scamandros · December 2014

eliisra wrote: »

It is one of the problems, when it comes to bad performance.

When there's a huge cluster of players spamming AoE and animations, the game needs to calculate which 6 will be taking dmg, heals or secondary effects. This adds more pressure on server capacity, eats memory and causes performance dips, delays and lag.

This isn't some conspiracy theory made up by players, the info comes directly from ZoS staff.

Alot of people say this but removing aoe caps isnt going to be the holy grail for fixing lag imo. There is no smart damage system that we know of so aoe attacks will hit the first 6 people that it finds within its radius and then stops, theres no more calculation needed.
Without aoe caps when you have more then 6 people within range the game goes through similar steps of applying damage, but this time doesn't stop until it has identified all players within the range and applied damage to all them, and theres no limit to how many players that could be.

I recall ZoS saying that they were reluctant to reintroduce camps with a respawn radius because it was a taxing calculation to work out whether people are within range.
Determining which players are located close enough to be within aoe circles centred at a caster would use similar algorithms, which would imply removing aoe caps would create more stress on the server as there is no "you have found 6 players now, stop calculating" alert.
For client side stuff image you now hit 12 people with a cast of impulse and the rng gods love you and apply burning to all 12. That is 6 more instantaneous graphical effects your system has to cope with then it does currently with a cap (of 6) in place does.

You can argue that remoal of aoe caps will be the end of large groups, or zergs as they tend to be called, and thus you will rarely if ever enconter a situation where you will hit more then 6 people at once. The issue here is the game revolves around keep capture, and the flags for those keeps are in fairly confined spaces.
Going in solo will get you mowed down by npcs or defenders, and going in with a zerg there will be too much incoming aoe for your healers to maintain. So ideally pushes are made in small to medium sized groups. But the other small to medium sized groups that would usually join to make a zerg don't simply disappear from the game, they have to be somewhere too, and most likely they will be at the same keep whether its running around the courtyard patrolling doors, controlling rooftops or taking the other flag.
The lag starts to be felt whenever there is a sizable force at a keep and gets worse as they circle into the courtyard and then the inner keep. Removal of aoe caps will discourage people being within 10m of each other, but will not necessarily keep groups massive distances away from each other during castle assaults which is when most of the lag issues arise anyway.

This is why I believe there to be an inefficiency in the underlying combat systems or cyrodil itself that is the culprit of the lag issues, not aoe caps.

LonePirate · December 2014

Sanct16 wrote: »

Removing AoE caps however would solve that problem as they would take far more damage from enemy AoE than they do now. People would have to spread out.

Every vampire in Cyrodiil probably supports the removal of AoE caps.

Tripwyr · December 2014

Removing the AoE cap on damage but not healing will solve these problems.

Gorthax · December 2014

Thechemicals wrote: »

nerf immovable.....r u crazy?

all armor type skills should be tied to 5 pieces. To use them without using that armor just seems silly. My opinion

Subtomik · December 2014

Right now the mitigation alone of a pug group that balls up can completely counter most damage and has made them super resilient in drawn out fights.

By removing an AOE cap you dont punish people for playing in a large group, you punish people who play in a large group and cant stay out of the red circles.

After a DK/Temp/sorc/NB 4 man wipe a 30 person raid with their ulti's the pugs wont be so enthusiastic about sitting on top of each other in a blob.

the less people blob, the less effective Aoe becomes, the less effective AOE becomes, the less people you have spamming it.

Merlight · December 2014

Scamandros wrote: »

I recall ZoS saying that they were reluctant to reintroduce camps with a respawn radius because it was a taxing calculation to work out whether people are within range.

I doubt they said that. Checking whether a player is within some distance from a camp is extremely simple, and would only need to be done once per respawn attempt.

Scamandros wrote: »

Determining which players are located close enough to be within aoe circles centred at a caster would use similar algorithms, which would imply removing aoe caps would create more stress on the server as there is no "you have found 6 players now, stop calculating" alert.

Answering the question "Is player T no further than Y from camp Z?" doesn't require any algorithm, it's a simple arithmetic test. Unlike "Give me N players no further than R from player C".

Spatial searches are difficult, no question about that. But the amount of work required is not determined by the number of targets you hit, but the number of targets you need to consider. As long as the game rewards stacking up, that number will be huge.

phreatophile · December 2014

If it's not going to be an AREA of EFFECT, let's come up with another name.
Semi-targeted ground spell might work. How about Lottery Effect since RNG is as important as position

If you are in the area you should recieve the effect. If it's an unpleasant effect remove yourself from the area of effect.

A burning puddle of oil doesn't care if no people or 50 people stand in it, it burns what's in the puddle.

Cody · December 2014

You want to nerf the one non-LA skill that is actually worth using? I hope you were just joking when you said that mi amigo:) the change it, and all the other armor skills should get, is a required 5/7 pieces of that armor to use that armor skill. that would help with the zerg blobs at least a little.

I personally think AOEs should do a small amount of damage in exchange for hitting many targets at once. I have seen impulse hit for over 300-400 damage back when i played a lot in the vet campaigns.... and my spell resis is 1874. not high, but not horribly low either.

Teargrants · December 2014

Hahahahaahhahhaaha, thanks for the laugh. AoE cap is most definitely part of the problem, the devs stated exactly that during the guild summit. They also stated their intended course of action - removing AoE caps on damage, but retaining the healing cap and ulti gen cap.

TiberiusTryton · December 2014

Maybe I didn't make it clear with what the "problem" is. I am not talking about lag here. I am talking about the pulse groups that take out zergs and how to beat them. If that it the most effective way to play then everyone will start doing it and the game will be dry.

Also, speaking of lag... Instead of calculating which 6 people to hit it will then have to calculate the damage on X amount of people with no restriction on X amount.

And 75% dodge against AoE? wth are you talking about? if I am 1 of 6 around a spammer thats 100% chance.

TiberiusTryton · December 2014

Merlight · December 2014

TiberiusTryton wrote: »

And 75% dodge against AoE? wth are you talking about? if I am 1 of 6 around a spammer thats 100% chance.

75% comes from a hypothetical scenario involving a full group. Imagine you're 1 of 24. The enemy casts Impulse, 6 people get hit, while the other 18 (or 75%), avoid it by just standing on the same spot. That's what "75% dodge chance" means.

Lava_Croft · December 2014

You folks do realize that none of you have any meaningful insight into the inner workings of ESO that could apply to a discussion about wether AoE caps cause technical problems or not, right?

Roechacca · December 2014

I'm so lost .

Roechacca · December 2014

This is what I get for not reading . I thought this was about lag lol . The other stuff ? Man I have NO clue how a new ability against AOE attacks would effect combat balance . We have purge and cleanse vs AOE effects . What's Immovable got to do with this again ?

Roechacca · December 2014

Never mind I re read everything twice and real slow . I'm not to sharp these days . I think what your asking for is a better counter ability to Impulse . Am I getting warmer ? Cause there is one , it's Negate . But I think you're asking for one that's available to all classes . Is this correct ?

Teargrants · December 2014

Lava_Croft wrote: »

You folks do realize that none of you have any meaningful insight into the inner workings of ESO that could apply to a discussion about wether AoE caps cause technical problems or not, right?

Because the devs themselves saying that the AoE cap causes technical problems is in no way 'meaningful' or 'insightful', right?