Why are there even "classes" in ESO?

Baconlad · December 2014

Also who's friggin idea was it that decided skills are more important then light/heavy attacks? To the point that we have to "clip" the animations for more dps...love the game and will continue to play with a smile on my face but
...dam...I guess I should blame the elitists. I'm learning that the players with 80+ hours a week of game time have so much time on their hands they learn the systems and are more proficient at them then the devs. Just...stop making zos change stuff for you, and remember you one percenter elitists! Without us casual "nubs" you wouldn't have a game to waste all your "precious" time in

Jaxsun · December 2014

Sparky617 wrote: »

Seriously, why are we limited to choosing a class? Why not just open up all trees, of all classes, to everyone? I think it would be awesome to just start a character, pick up your first weapon, and go. Then as I gain skill points I can chose class skills from anywhere. Just for example, Swallow Soul from siphoning, Endless Fury from storm calling, and Lava whip from that DK tree I never played...
We would be able to create very custom characters. Some combinations might be too good, but how different is that from the way it is now?

I second this.

Rune_Relic · December 2014

Jaxsun wrote: »

Sparky617 wrote: »

Seriously, why are we limited to choosing a class? Why not just open up all trees, of all classes, to everyone? I think it would be awesome to just start a character, pick up your first weapon, and go. Then as I gain skill points I can chose class skills from anywhere. Just for example, Swallow Soul from siphoning, Endless Fury from storm calling, and Lava whip from that DK tree I never played...
We would be able to create very custom characters. Some combinations might be too good, but how different is that from the way it is now?

I second this.

I have to third this in a way.
Classes have done nothing but pidgeon hole people.

The fact you can only have 5 skills loaded per weapon.....should have been enough to have melee range magicka weapons, melee range physical weapons, ranged physical and ranged magical along with magical shield or physical shields or somewhere between.

That could have done it so you pick weapon type, pick armour type, pick shield type and pick attribute to maximise their magical or physical power.

Further...the mages, fighters, thieves and assassins guild could have replaced anything and everything the classes offer. Letting you pick/learn skills from the masters rather than get the fixed menu.

One system makes you flexible.. one does not. The exact reason builds are excepted or denied is because classes come with known limitations. Remove the limitations. TBH though, this still wont work if skills arent balanced and everyone cherry picks the same optimum build as a result.

Morshire · December 2014

Darlgon wrote: »

Some of you guys are so cute. Have not been looking at ESO for over a year have you? Original Alpha and early Beta ESO had no classes. They added classes as a concession to PLAYERS DEMANDS that they could not play without having classes. They felt people from MMOs would not be able to process the classless ESO system.

I cant find a source right now. Guess it was in the Beta forums. But this is from exactly a year ago:

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2013/12/04/creating-eso-designing-skill-lines

ESO Official Site wrote:

A question we often see is, “Why not go classless?” In the end, keeping class skill lines exclusive while opening many other skill lines to everyone worked best—choices stay important, but everyone has freedom to choose from a large pool of options. It helps us encourage diversity while still providing choices, and it allowed us to emphasize multiplayer strategy—members of the different classes have access to their own skill lines, which creates opportunities for you to work with your allies, coordinating your unique skills and adding depth and variety to team gameplay.

Your class is an important decision to make, but it doesn’t chain you to any one playstyle. Every class has three of its own skill lines, each with different skills that are thematically related to the class. Combine those three with the many, many other lines available to every character, and each member of a particular class can be wildly different from the next. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to spend a single point in your class lines. However, you’ll know when you see a Templar who has decided to focus on his or her class abilities.

Here is the reasoning for this from earlier in the post.

(Huge point to make: we ask ZoS to listen, and they did to all the BETA people, and now we are not happy? Just saying

Now while I agree with the conversation (I did like the freedom that I had in Skyrim), I have to wonder if going classless wouldn't lead to everyone being cookie cutter for the min/max aspect? My only complaint about the whole Elder Scrolls game line was the single player aspect. Now we have the online version and I am trying to decide if ZoS didn't go too far down the MMO road and strayed away from what made them a hit in the console realm.(Jury is still out) Would it be great to have everything available, yes. Would it make us all the same......seriously need to ask?

Read some of the other posts about trials. "Elitist only run one way and people's mind set is that it is the only way." If we had every choice available, I'd be willing to bet that we would all be running DK's with NB DPS and Templar heals. Instead of using the class names, we would be calling them Dragon Bladars, Temades Knights, or some such and they would all be almost identical because it is the easiest way to get through end game stuff. Now on the off chance that you actually do play and would want to be original, you'd get smoked in PVP and not a soul would run with you in trials unless they were "friends" that you'd already copied build wise and you decided, as a joke, to make an original alt.

IMO, adding the PVP aspect with the MMO style game play, I think requires some way to force us to choose differently.

Artis · December 2014

In every singe survey after every single beta-event I was writing that classes should be removed (or class respec added) and something to change your appearance in-game should be added as well.

I guess, my opinion just doesn't matter and I'm not worthy to listen to, but just so you know - there were people against classes

Rune_Relic · December 2014

Artemis wrote: »

In every singe survey after every single beta-event I was writing that classes should be removed (or class respec added) and something to change your appearance in-game should be added as well.

I guess, my opinion just doesn't matter and I'm not worthy to listen to, but just so you know - there were people against classes

I was... I refuse to use class skills for exactly that reason. That comes with a very heavy penalty as you know.

Iccotak · January 2018

I think with people demanding Necromancers and how Wardens were bought in that this is now a more relevant topic that we should discuss.

Take a look at this video
52:00 spell crafting
1:01:00 Classic spells

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LkeMacg-b0&t=3546s

Many magic schools as skill lines would not fit the existing classes. Necromancy would not fit the Templar, because it doesn't fit the theme.
The classes are there to determine your specializations, play style, and theme.
Which is the problem as players would like to determine that for themselves. Which is evident with the new Personality system and the inclusion of a necromancer personality that you can use on any character no matter your class.
Also none of the specializations are for pure Barbarians, fighters, rangers, etc. All of them are specializations in magic, you have to play some sort of caster no matter your class choice.

What's could likely happen is that the growing list of classes would be no different than any other MMO. You pick a class to fill a certain niche, role, and specialization. Along with that, certain classes absolutely lean more towards specific roles than other classes do

Leading to my other issue
The justification as to why the class as specializations exist is poor.
ESO says you can be Tank, Damage Dealer or Healer with any class. BUT Dragon Knight is more suited for playing a tank than Sorcerer is, that's why DK has the chain power to pull enemies.
-Sure you can use any weapon as a Sorcerer but it definitely leans more towards using staffs.
-Templars are holy warriors and/or holy healers. They are essentially paladins.
-Nightblades powers are practically tailored for assassins. Its in the name
-Dragon Knights are "skillful masters-at-arms use the ancient Akaviri martial arts tradition of battle-spirit" why is everyone across Tamriel using the skill sets of foreign invaders? So in order to specialize in fire magic (something every culture has) I have to pick an Akaviri based class?
-Why would Nords use a class made by the Wood Elves? ALSO, if it does come from Valenwood, why are almost all Warden powers modeled after Morrowind centric animals??

If I want to make a Nature based Argonian character who uses nature magic. Ok Warden right? Oh if you are cool with Ice Powers then sure. But why would a class supposedly created in Valenwood (which is in the far south) be using ice powers? What if I want the nature magic but not the Ice powers?

So the Class system not only limits player choice in roles but it also limits them in their ability to create unique characters for both gameplay and role-playing.
Yes, this is an MMO but ZOS should be using more things from Elder Scrolls games to make it stand out from the other MMOs out there.
You can give players the option to specialize without having classes.
Have them choose between daedric an undead
between, Lightning, fire, and ice

To me it seems Obvious that after Skyrim, ZOS worked very hard to shift from standard MMO classes to a more open system akin to normal Elder Scrolls games and arrived at the middle ground when they launched. This is why ZOS has said that they are working towards making each class a DPS skill line, a Tanks skill line, and a Healing skill line.
Which again makes one ask why have classes if they can all be a healer, tank, or dps?

Lynx7386 · January 2018

Because they wanted a theme park MMO like wow. That game sold well and continues to, so obviously every copy of it will do well. That's developer logic for you.

Personally I think this game would've done far better with an open skill system like pre-cu Starwars galaxies: There were dozens of skill sets in the game and you could learn any combination of them (within the limits of your total overall skill points). You could have hybrid swordsman-pistoleer, or fencer-martial artist, or bounty hunter-commando, so on and so forth. The options were almost limitless and made character design far more interesting.

With ESO they really should have split everything into weapon skills (limited to two active, one front and one back bar), and magic skills (Limited to picking three out of a combination of all class skill trees in the game).

Would have loved to combine abilities like that.

coop500 · January 2018

@ZOS_GinaBruno This thread has bee necroed for some reason

Iccotak · January 2018

@coop500
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I necroed this because of recent class implementations and demand for Necromancer class.
There is still an ongoing discussion for either new classes or new skill lines, and I think we need to discuss how classes are working now in 2018

Sparky617 · January 2018

I’m happy to see this thread resurrected, and even though I’ve been play ESO this whole time, I’d still like to see it go classless.

Betsararie · January 2018

So the game can function. What kind of question is that?

Chilly-McFreeze · January 2018

Uh, here we go again.

First off, this is an MMO with totally different challanges to balance than a single player game, e.g. Skyrim (which was already dumbed down IMO compared to older TES games).

See what happens to some specific builds every patch? People flock to them because they are mathematically the best. Now you've got more 10 different "Meta Builds", one for each class, resource choice and role.

If you open up everything to everyone people will still flock to the BiS. With the little difference that there isn't a BiS stam DK DD, BiS mag DK DD, BiS mag Sorc DD but that there is only a BiS DD. Effectively killing diversity for everyone who wants to stay at a competetive level.

While you might say "but it already is like this", I can only partly agree. Take a look at PvP. The pecking order there isn't as clear as in PvE.

If you allow us to choose whatever we like, without any kind of restrictions, everyone would sooner or rather run cancer builds. A cloaking, Breath of Life using, Dark Dealing whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

Limitations keep diversity alive.

FakeFox · January 2018

In a MMO more freedom can quickly turn into a lack of diversity. Players in the endgame activities generally want to be competitive or at least not at a significant disadvantage, with a classless system this can lead to everyone playing exactly the same build. Of course in a class based system balancing can be lacklustre as well, however you usually end up with every class having its uses or having at least one unique feature that makes this class useful as for example a DD even though it lacks DPS.

Marabornwingrion · January 2018

Holy necro...

Faulgor · January 2018

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Uh, here we go again.

First off, this is an MMO with totally different challanges to balance than a single player game, e.g. Skyrim (which was already dumbed down IMO compared to older TES games).

See what happens to some specific builds every patch? People flock to them because they are mathematically the best. Now you've got more 10 different "Meta Builds", one for each class, resource choice and role.

If you open up everything to everyone people will still flock to the BiS. With the little difference that there isn't a BiS stam DK DD, BiS mag DK DD, BiS mag Sorc DD but that there is only a BiS DD. Effectively killing diversity for everyone who wants to stay at a competetive level.

While you might say "but it already is like this", I can only partly agree. Take a look at PvP. The pecking order there isn't as clear as in PvE.

If you allow us to choose whatever we like, without any kind of restrictions, everyone would sooner or rather run cancer builds. A cloaking, Breath of Life using, Dark Dealing whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

Limitations keep diversity alive.

This is not an issue at all when the content calls for different builds, e.g. someone focusing on frost damage, someone on fire, someone on melee, someone on range, etc. Partially this is the case right now, e.g. with different stamina DDs in trials wearing different sets for maximum group support/boss debuff (NMG, Sunderflame, Morag Tong, etc).

Likewise in PvP, where ideally you'll want a rock-paper-scissor situation, where some builds are good against other builds. Not everyone is going to play paper when there are scissors around.

Uviryth · January 2018

Sparky617 wrote: »

Seriously, why are we limited to choosing a class? Why not just open up all trees, of all classes, to everyone? I think it would be awesome to just start a character, pick up your first weapon, and go. Then as I gain skill points I can chose class skills from anywhere. Just for example, Swallow Soul from siphoning, Endless Fury from storm calling, and Lava whip from that DK tree I never played...
We would be able to create very custom characters. Some combinations might be too good, but how different is that from the way it is now?

Because one char who can do it all bores the living bejesus out of most people (me included).
The Secret World has a classless "one char"-system. Its boring, soooooo boring I get sleepy even thinking about it.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO · January 2018

Why = Lazy design