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Five things Zenimax can do to help Cyrodiil/PvP

Joy_Division
Joy_Division
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We as a PvP community are a divisive lot and I think it is difficult for Zenimax to identify the issues pertaining to Cyrodiil that matter to us most because we spend 90% of our virtual ink arguing over specific minutia that, even if 'corrected,' would still not address what I think are core problems that currently plague game-play in Cyrodiil. I think the #1 concern we all have is lag and I believe Zenimax is fully aware of that. People have left the game entirely and others avoid Cyrodiil because of it. Period. If Zenimax could snap their fingers and fix it, they would. That being said, what could Zenimax fix/address/help by just snapping their fingers? I play on the NA server and all my observations are specific to it.

1. If a PvE player who left 30 days after launch came back right now, she would not recognize PvE with all the new content. A PvP player who did the same might wonder where the Forward Camps went but would otherwise know every square inch of Cyrodiil. I know you will advertise the Justice System and the Imperial City as PvP content, but the fact of the matter is the AvA that PvP is built around, the AvA I heard so much of its importance whenever the topics of dueling came up, will still be the same as it was at launch! I love Cyrodiil, but don't you think it's getting a bit stale?

2. You are going to have to trust me here, there is zero incentive when it comes to loot/rewards to participate in Cyrodiil for 99% of your player base. If I spend a night in DSA (Dragonstar Arena), I will *always* come out of that with decent purple gear that others value and sometimes with a rare jewelry I can sell for 50k without haggling. From one night. For an entire month, I kicked ass and took names fighting for the Ebonheart Pact and got *ZERO* gear for my end of campaign rewards.

2A. While on the subject of rewards...you do know that many players DO NOT even open their "rewards for the worthy"? I get it, good loot needs to be rare. But how is it that PvP oriented players with constantly full mailboxes consisting of nothing but decon trash is allowed to continue? Especially when spending 30 minutes doing a single Vet Dungeon will yield more Purple gear - some stuff I actually use (adroitness) - than I have received in the ENTIRE history of this game from Cyrodiil. If the was even a rumor that a warlock ring could be found in those "rewards for the worthy," not only would they be actually aptly named, but also my PvP friends would no longer always have their mailboxes full.

2B. One further comment about loot. You know how PvP players are incentivized to go PvE to get gear? Why is this a one-way street? If desirable gear from Cyrodiil was bind on pickup that you didn't have to be in the top 1% to get, I might actually see some different names when PvPing now and then.

3. There are too many campaigns and too few players. Whatever was the original intention behind home/guest, different lengths, vet/non-vet, etc., how Cyrodiil plays out on a nightly basis has evolved, or rather devolved, into something that is undesirable and unhealthy. Some people will blame this on the "buff campaign" mechanic and believe that doing away with them will help resolve things. I disagree. First off, I do think there is value with the connection between PvE and PvP and buffs are what brings people who otherwise would not PvP to Cyrodiil. This is good. The problem is that "buff" campaigns have become proprietary in that one factions believes that it is theirs by divine right and that any incursion, however small and innocent, must be immediately dealt with and purged with extreme prejudice.

While there is some value to the tacit understandings that happen between the "nuisance" and "dominant" factions - namely there is a place for some good small scale PvP absent the lag that often accompanies large-scaled battles in Thornblade - I have been on both sides of this and found it to be unhealthy. The occasional moral victory the nuisance faction gains one night for smacking the Emperor's crew for two hours or so at Sejanus pales into comparison to the many nights it beats its head against the wall getting overwhelmed. Instead of a healthy and dynamic campaign, the inexorable logic leads to the nuisance faction complaining of being outnumbered and the dominant faction being so overprotective of it server that people will actually put off sleep to until the Farragut Mine is blue and not red.

The belief in proprietary servers needs to end. When there are 4 vet campaigns and 3 factions, it should come as no surprise that each faction has one: Haderus (yellow), Azura's (red), Chillrend (blue). Eliminate two of these and I believe you will get two healthy, dynamic, and balanced PvP campaigns. I would also increase the value of buffs since these will actually be contested for rather than simply be guaranteed. In my experience, PvP has always been at its healthiest when there was two active campaigns: I am thinking of the old Wabbajack and Dawnbreaker after the first 90 cycle and Chillrend (before it became a blue buff server) and Thornblade immediately after the current system was in instituted. Standing Emperors may not like that their reign would quickly come to an end. But I think they will value the extra sleep they will get as well as a fluid and interesting campaign.

4. You really need to get rid of AoE caps before I eat Cheerios tomorrow for breakfast. I know you designed the game under the premise that AoE caps would serve as an important balance mechanism. I also understand you are investigating ways to mitigate the unintended detrimental aspects that AoE caps have brought to Cyrodiil's current meta. Just drop them altogether and see what happens. If things need adjusting, react accordingly. We KNOW how Cyrodiil plays out with AoE caps. We DON'T know how it will play out without them. Stop speculating and thinking in the abstract and actually acquire empirical evidence how Cyrodiil plays out BEFORE trying to fix a mechanic that few people like and we know doesn't work as intended.

5. I really like this game but it pains me to see how such obvious and correctable issues remain unaddressed. I don't know how to fix the lag and I don't even know if lag is just something inherent in MMOs. I am not expecting it to be resolved in next Monday's patch. But I think you can go a long way to eliminating the (unfair) perception that Zenimax is apathetic toward its PvP community by quickly addressing the critiques listed above. #2 and #4 could easily be implemented by the time of the next maintenance patch. #1 will require a little creative thinking, but there is no reason why you cannot give your community a little preview of some of the things you are thinking of adding to Cyrodiil (or do you not plan on adding anything?!?). #3 is the most radical but nevertheless easy to implement and the most puzzling of the current status quo. I would have to be given a pretty persuasive counter-argument why the 3 proprietary / 1 contested campaign system is somehow conducive to the game's health and appeal.

As far as priorities go, I care a whole lot less about Reflective Scales than an interesting environment to actually play in.
Edited by Joy_Division on December 9, 2014 8:29PM
Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.
  • s7732425ub17_ESO
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    Very good post.

    On a related note, the gear rewards from PVP are found in the blue "secret" boxes from the vendors. Spend your AP and have a chance to get some decent items. Notice that I said decent- there are very few PVP box sets worth using, and they all have really, really bad traits.

    Like the Undaunted gear, I want the blue PVP boxed gear to be random traits and have a slightly higher success rate of dropping (to compensate for garbage random traits). Right now, I open 40 boxes (240000 AP) and get at most 1 or 2 set items. Sure, the price of them might drop a bit, but at least the PVP gear you put into the game would be usable.

    Specific examples:
    Shadow walker set: amazing set with jewelry, probably the best PVP box items
    Desert Rose: amazing 5 piece bonus, however- the traits are GARBAGE
    Archmage: 5 piece Seducer set with spell damage instead of magica recovery, but the traits are garbage
    Beckoning Steel: The 2, 3, and 4 piece bonuses need to be reworked.
    Edited by s7732425ub17_ESO on December 9, 2014 9:08PM
  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    There are two big problems at work that are eating pvp apart. Lag, and buff servers. You can only escape 1 or the other but not both. Those that leave the buff servers to join Thornblade contribute to the lag on the Thornblade and those that leave Thornblade for their own buff server further contribute to the outnumbered and out buffed dominance that is already plaguing Haderus, Chillrend and Azuras Star.

    Lets face it the lag is not going to be fixed anytime soon, but you can alleviate it by fixing the buff server paradigm. You have created a monster of an incentive to own a buff server; one that cannot be ignored by PvE. So long as it exists in PvE the force that drives these buff servers will remain and buff servers will persist.

    The player base has made several great suggestions to fix this including.
    • Remove PvE buffs
    • Add an additional server, for a total of 2 play 3 buff.
    • Reduce the campaigns to 2 campaigns
    • Others
    You have created a powerful force here in these PvE buffs that will not fail to complete a buff server, but rather than deflating that force I think you can make it do your bidding and use it to fix and balance the campaigns at the same time.

    Make the PvE buffs based on total Alliance success rather than individual campaign success. This makes every campaign valid and necessary for success. It means that people will distribute their populations across all 4 campaigns as needed.

    There are two groups of people in Cyrodiil. Those who are there for PvP and those who are there for PvE. The PvE crowd is invisible and only shows up when their buffs are in peril. Then there is the PvP crowd that mostly remains in Thornblade with a dwindling population.

    The PvE crowd is content to remain uninvolved with Cyrodiil so long as their buffs are intact. When they are threatened they emerge in bulk and disappear after their buffs are secure. They can remain mostly inactive because they are mostly uncontested. However once the buffs are based on total Alliance success all former buff servers will become contested. The PvE population will have to maintain their presence to secure their buffs. Meanwhile the PvP crowd can redistribute into less laggy servers.

    So here is what we would get with this set up.
    • All servers are valid and necessary for success
    • PVP population redistributes themselves reducing the lag on Thornblade
    • The hidden, unaffiliated PvE crowd now has to remain present across all campaigns to preserve their buffs which will inflate the total PvP population and increase the action across all campaigns
    • Each Alliance has to work together for success rather than individual multiworld alliances.
    • Lag is alleviated until fix is released
    • No more buff servers
    Edited by Armitas on December 10, 2014 3:20PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Jitterbug
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    Insightful indeed
  • TiberiusTryton
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    Best post I have seen so far about the issues. ZOS take action with this post in mind. Staring with AoE and Campaigns please.
  • Trottz
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    ...
    4. You really need to get rid of AoE caps before I eat Cheerios tomorrow for breakfast. I know you designed the game under the premise that AoE caps would serve as an important balance mechanism. I also understand you are investigating ways to mitigate the unintended detrimental aspects that AoE caps have brought to Cyrodiil's current meta. Just drop them altogether and see what happens. If things need adjusting, react accordingly. We KNOW how Cyrodiil plays out with AoE caps. We DON'T know how it will play out without them. Stop speculating and thinking in the abstract and actually acquire empirical evidence how Cyrodiil plays out BEFORE trying to fix a mechanic that few people like and we know doesn't work as intended.
    ...
    We DONT'T know? There've never been DK-Emp-Vamps demolishing whole Raids?
    Trist'is and Krahl, a.D.

    “Show me a mortal who is not pursued, and I’ll show you a corpse. Every hunter is hunted, every mind that knows itself has stalkers. We drive and are driven. The unknown pursues the ignorant, the truth assails every scholar wise enough to know his ignorance, for that is the meaning of unknowable truths.”
  • TiberiusTryton
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    Trottz wrote: »
    ...
    4. You really need to get rid of AoE caps before I eat Cheerios tomorrow for breakfast. I know you designed the game under the premise that AoE caps would serve as an important balance mechanism. I also understand you are investigating ways to mitigate the unintended detrimental aspects that AoE caps have brought to Cyrodiil's current meta. Just drop them altogether and see what happens. If things need adjusting, react accordingly. We KNOW how Cyrodiil plays out with AoE caps. We DON'T know how it will play out without them. Stop speculating and thinking in the abstract and actually acquire empirical evidence how Cyrodiil plays out BEFORE trying to fix a mechanic that few people like and we know doesn't work as intended.
    ...
    We DONT'T know? There've never been DK-Emp-Vamps demolishing whole Raids?

    True, but now they are accompanied with AoE spammers if not spamming AoE themselves. I purpose give something like fighter guild a block to AoE so everyone could use it, or at least mitigate dmg.
  • Joy_Division
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    Trottz wrote: »
    ...
    4. You really need to get rid of AoE caps before I eat Cheerios tomorrow for breakfast. I know you designed the game under the premise that AoE caps would serve as an important balance mechanism. I also understand you are investigating ways to mitigate the unintended detrimental aspects that AoE caps have brought to Cyrodiil's current meta. Just drop them altogether and see what happens. If things need adjusting, react accordingly. We KNOW how Cyrodiil plays out with AoE caps. We DON'T know how it will play out without them. Stop speculating and thinking in the abstract and actually acquire empirical evidence how Cyrodiil plays out BEFORE trying to fix a mechanic that few people like and we know doesn't work as intended.
    ...
    We DONT'T know? There've never been DK-Emp-Vamps demolishing whole Raids?

    Yes, we DON'T know. Your hypothesis is based on pure speculation.
    Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.
  • Astien
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    Remove Impulse.
  • Cody
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    the lag has gone almost unchecked for almost 6 months...

    if ZOS were to simply post every few days or so that they were actively working on it.... you(forgive my 2nd person usage:)) would have no idea how much anger that would dissipate.

    but, as it stands, ZOS has posted on MAYBE.... 3 lag threads the last 4+ months?? If ZOS does not show that they care, what else can we as PvP players come to? it MAY be unfair to say ZOS is apathetic towards PvP, but they have not provided evidence to the contrary. the best they have done is the occasional nerf/change to a skill.
    Edited by Cody on December 10, 2014 1:46AM
  • Rhavein
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    very nice post!

    it's very strange that whole community agreed on -remove aoe caps - 2 campaigns only.

    listen your community ZOS! you have nothing to lose to do hotfix for at least aoe cap. @ZOS_GinaBruno
    Gaehr
    Necro, Ninja, Goalkeeper
    Firehearts
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    Adding to #2.

    You are completely right. Even if I ran around in PvE killing random mobs I would still get better gear than anything in "Rewards for the worthy." (RftW from now on)

    When they added gold and soul gems, it was a great incremental improvement but it needs to go a bit further.

    The RftW loot tables should be adjusted so there is a % chance to get blue, purple and gold items. It shouldn't always be green decon fodder. At least you have a chance of getting a decent upgrade mat if you decon a blue or purple item.


    Here are things ZOS could do today to improve the RftW loottables.
    • Add glyphs. NOT JUST WHITE. % chance to get a random glyph (scaled to your level) with the possibility of getting green, blue, purple or gold glyphs
    • Add more sets. Its fine to have the PvP sets be the most common but there should be a % chance to get other sets. The same sets that drop in other areas of the game.
    • Add the mystery bag sets to RftW loottables. Arch-mage, desert rose, Morag tong, shadow walker, Noble Duelist, etc. should be a small % chance to get these from RftW as well. I can farm PvE for any set and get it. Why do these sets have to be so rare that I have to spend 1mil AP to get a few pieces?
    • Add either food or recipies. Getting a few blue or purple foods would be a great reward to add.
    • Add potions. Same thing. Food and tri-pots are staples of PvP. Don't do so much that it ruins the crafting market but a few drops wont hurt.
    • Update the stats of the PvP sets to v14. Why do PvE'rs get access to purple v14 gear drops with much better stats than blue VR12 PvP gear? Some of this gear just got an armor upgrade while the actual set bonuses didn't get updated to v14 levels.

    Also on the topic of traits, what were they thinking when they made this set?

    epaulets_of_the_noble_duelist.jpg

    No VR12 is going to need training traits!!!!!!! Ever!!! If your armor skill lines aren't maxed at VR1, you are running the game naked. This set should be impenetrable or random. Training trait should NEVER drop on sets past VR1.


    Also, why is ZOS so stingy about v14 gear? PvPers like V14 drops too!

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/123446/stupid-traits-on-pvp-gear
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/123049/if-youre-going-to-add-new-pvp-sets-zos-put-impentrable-as-the-trait-on-it
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/123106/pvp-sets-with-useless-traits
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/134445/will-pvp-gear-sets-ever-have-customizable-traits
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/132305/vr14-pvp-vendor
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/132740/elite-pvp-gear

    ^^^^ This has all be said before.

    Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on December 11, 2014 1:47PM
  • cozmon3c_ESO
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    Trottz wrote: »
    ...
    4. You really need to get rid of AoE caps before I eat Cheerios tomorrow for breakfast. I know you designed the game under the premise that AoE caps would serve as an important balance mechanism. I also understand you are investigating ways to mitigate the unintended detrimental aspects that AoE caps have brought to Cyrodiil's current meta. Just drop them altogether and see what happens. If things need adjusting, react accordingly. We KNOW how Cyrodiil plays out with AoE caps. We DON'T know how it will play out without them. Stop speculating and thinking in the abstract and actually acquire empirical evidence how Cyrodiil plays out BEFORE trying to fix a mechanic that few people like and we know doesn't work as intended.
    ...
    We DONT'T know? There've never been DK-Emp-Vamps demolishing whole Raids?

    Yes, we DON'T know. Your hypothesis is based on pure speculation.

    Yes we do know of from the first two months of the game. Dk vamps would take on entire raids single handed and win. The issue was the incredibly fast ultimate gen and multiple ultimate up from the same guy. This was fixed though. So yes we do know, maybe you weren't pvping since the begining.

    Edited phone autocorrect spelling
    Edited by cozmon3c_ESO on December 11, 2014 5:55PM
    Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
    ~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
    Youtube Channel - Leper
    https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos
  • Draxys
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    Yep
    2013

    rip decibel
  • saintmurray
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    Great thread. I believe even taking the server buffs things further. If I pve player wants the buff they should have to have taken a keep in the last say 12 hours. That stops buff campaigns completely, how can it remain a buff camp if you own everything? Also with regards to the dropped boxes maybe when you open them you have a chance to get a green level of any item in the game. Imagine getting green warlock rings? Not amazing but they would still sell.

    I like many other players here feel like pvp is being neglected, if all the serious pvp players stop playing that would be a huge hit. I'm not saying that I personally will stop playing but I have been noticing a steady decline in players which is a shame because I genuinely love this game and what it can offer compared with all other mmos...
    Saintmurray-V14-Bamplar-EP Former Emp Haderus
    Hans Incognito-V1 DK-EP
    #Betatester
    #Ipaidbeforeitwascool
  • OrangeTheCat
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    OP, I would add: when you first log into a campaign as a particular faction you should be locked to that faction for the duration of the campaign. Recent events make this pertinent. As I'm fond of saying, abuse it and lose it.
  • ToRelax
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    Trottz wrote: »
    ...
    4. You really need to get rid of AoE caps before I eat Cheerios tomorrow for breakfast. I know you designed the game under the premise that AoE caps would serve as an important balance mechanism. I also understand you are investigating ways to mitigate the unintended detrimental aspects that AoE caps have brought to Cyrodiil's current meta. Just drop them altogether and see what happens. If things need adjusting, react accordingly. We KNOW how Cyrodiil plays out with AoE caps. We DON'T know how it will play out without them. Stop speculating and thinking in the abstract and actually acquire empirical evidence how Cyrodiil plays out BEFORE trying to fix a mechanic that few people like and we know doesn't work as intended.
    ...
    We DONT'T know? There've never been DK-Emp-Vamps demolishing whole Raids?

    Yes, we DON'T know. Your hypothesis is based on pure speculation.

    Yes we do know of from the first two months of the game. Dk vamps would take on entire raids single handed and win. The issue was the incredibly fast ultimate gen and multiple ultimate up from the same guy. This was fixed though. So yes we do know, maybe you weren't pvping since the begining.

    Edited phone autocorrect spelling

    Just to make that clear... it's still about AoE-Caps, right?
    Not about a bugged ultimate with zero cost that stacked on itself on the same player. Wich is fixed, as you already stated. Raids have not been destroyed because of missing AoE caps but because a practically invulnerable player dealt at least 6 times as much damage as he should be able to do.
    DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
    The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...

    Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU
  • KBKB
    KBKB
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    6. Fix your craptacular game
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