Audigy wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno, if you get a moment, could you please answer this question? I was wondering, say I decide to go full blown bandit on a random town somewhere. After a while, will all the NPCs that I mercilessly slaughter respawn, and if so, how long will it take?

Nothing against you for doing that. But this is the main reason why I think it's a mistake to launch the justice system w/o pvp. There are builds that can withstand amazing amounts of damange. Even with elite guards, it's possible, even likely that a character with a good build can stroll into any town and completely whipe out the entire population while other players just stand there and watch.

That person might think twice if there were a few well built PCs ready to defend that town.

So call me a prophet, but here is the thread I see coming shortly after phase 1:

"ZOS PLEASE hurry up with the justice pvp! People are endlessly farming guards and citizens and there is nothing we can do but watch it happen"

I can imagine sorcerers killing stuff and streaking away into the night.

I hope the justice system will not make "farming" citizens rewarding at all. That would be awful.

It would be a good idea to allow looting/pickpocketing citizens only when you had no heat. So you could only "farm" as long as your crime went undetected, but not after. Would make slaughtering a town unprofitable after the first witnessed kill. Though class balance when it comes to hiding/escaping heat would need addressing.

Audigy wrote: »

I watched the justice system preview now and so far I like what I saw, also thanks @ZOS_GinaBruno for asking my question.

The idea of the lock boxes is great, also that vendors wont trade with a criminal at some time.

I hope the Devs keep working on the system after it was applied, so that a Criminal has some type of freedom in what he does and isn't limited to a specific NPC type, yet will be facing hard punishments when he attacks bigger targets or steals of higher NPCs like in a church, castle etc.

That some NPCs will be unkillable is a bit of a setback though, takes away some immersion

It might had been a better idea to just make them very strong or let them run away like to a save spot.

WOW also has unkillable NPCs and I always felt this was a bit silly in world pvp, as they kept running around calling for help / attacking players but a player couldn't get rid of them.


Time will tell I guess,

thanks for the show @ ZOS

Allowances have to be made in an MMO where other players need to access their bank or specific venders. Besides, TES has always had essential NPCs who where unkillable because they were story important or tied to a quest.

That's why these NPCs should be strong, run for cover etc.

Its just that if criminals really attack a village then its horrible if they cant kill the NPC´s there but the NPCs them.

Why would anyone become a criminal if he has to face that problem? Its a reason why world pvp is dead at WOW since you cant kill NPCs but they kill you.

This isn't about accessing a bank, its about actually having a point of competing in world pvp / the justice system.

As explained in the ESO live, once you reach a specific type of "ranking" you wont be able to enter banks or vendors anymore. A criminal who takes such a big setback must get something in return and not another setback by immortal NPCs that wipe the floor with them.

Yes, but strong to who, a level 10 player or a VR 10? As mentioned above, there's a lot of balancing that needs to go into this. We also have enough trouble with moving bankers, we don't need other players being allowed to chase them away while you're trying to use them. This isn't one of the single player games, which by the way had NPCs that would cower and run away and who could kill you but you couldn't kill them.

If a stage 4 vamp / high level criminal can't enter "proper" towns (which sounds cool) will we get "outlaw dens" or something to that effect where we can bank, sell, chill, and /flex?

Cherryblossom wrote: »

So soon it will be welcome to the Thieves guilds Zerg train, welcome to lag on the capitals streets.

Honestly if they cannot cope with a few people in Cyrodill spamming spells, how are they going to cope in the cities!!

This is one of my biggest concerns based on the state of the game right now. Still not a peep from them about the current Cyrodill lag/latency issues either.

Funny how all problems seem forgotten when sth. like "new dyes" or "new justice system" comes, you guys seem in love with "the innovations" ad absurdum

kijima wrote: »

Neizir wrote: »

[*] A list of all known crimes is: Murder, Theft, Assault, Pickpocketing, turning into Werewolf Form, being a Stage 4 Vampire, feeding on people as a Vampire, breaking into houses, trespassing, and aiming weapons at people.
]

I can see this being a problem for some people, many salty tears will come of this. Mark Target my words.

Indeed this might be a problem. I often toggle my weapon by mistake while moving. We need to have the possibility to somehow "lock" our weapons to avoid this situation.

Just watched it today when I got back in from work, Happy bunny.

One thing I should mention thou......are you aware that Twitch has an advert for WOW at the start of the stream? A little below the belt I thought that....

Elloa wrote: »

kijima wrote: »

Neizir wrote: »

[*] A list of all known crimes is: Murder, Theft, Assault, Pickpocketing, turning into Werewolf Form, being a Stage 4 Vampire, feeding on people as a Vampire, breaking into houses, trespassing, and aiming weapons at people.
]

I can see this being a problem for some people, many salty tears will come of this. Mark Target my words.

Indeed this might be a problem. I often toggle my weapon by mistake while moving. We need to have the possibility to somehow "lock" our weapons to avoid this situation.

It was mentioned that there will be a toggle to participate in the system or not, the default is on so you will have to go in and turn it off. Once you have participated you can't immediately turn it off to escape the system. As to the statement of if you kill all the witnesses your crime will not be reported thus produce no heat/bounty is misleading. The statement and clarification stated that if you one shot kill a witness you will receive no heat/bounty. But if the target is able to swing back even once the flag will be set.

I agree that none of the fame stuff was mentioned in the podcast as it was focused on the first phase so the stuff about fame is conjecture.

Two questions that I would of liked answered: If you wolf or vamp out and murder an NPC is that double or tripple the heat?

With the safe havens with the fences also have crafting stations? If so will the components be considered stolen property.

Oh and one thing I haven't seen mentioned is you can pay to "launder" an item so it will no longer be considered stolen.

Despair9 wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno, if you get a moment, could you please answer this question? I was wondering, say I decide to go full blown bandit on a random town somewhere. After a while, will all the NPCs that I mercilessly slaughter respawn, and if so, how long will it take?

Nothing against you for doing that. But this is the main reason why I think it's a mistake to launch the justice system w/o pvp. There are builds that can withstand amazing amounts of damange. Even with elite guards, it's possible, even likely that a character with a good build can stroll into any town and completely whipe out the entire population while other players just stand there and watch.

That person might think twice if there were a few well built PCs ready to defend that town.

So call me a prophet, but here is the thread I see coming shortly after phase 1:

"ZOS PLEASE hurry up with the justice pvp! People are endlessly farming guards and citizens and there is nothing we can do but watch it happen"

I can imagine sorcerers killing stuff and streaking away into the night.

I hope the justice system will not make "farming" citizens rewarding at all. That would be awful.

It would be a good idea to allow looting/pickpocketing citizens only when you had no heat. So you could only "farm" as long as your crime went undetected, but not after. Would make slaughtering a town unprofitable after the first witnessed kill. Though class balance when it comes to hiding/escaping heat would need addressing.

Audigy wrote: »

I watched the justice system preview now and so far I like what I saw, also thanks @ZOS_GinaBruno for asking my question.

The idea of the lock boxes is great, also that vendors wont trade with a criminal at some time.

I hope the Devs keep working on the system after it was applied, so that a Criminal has some type of freedom in what he does and isn't limited to a specific NPC type, yet will be facing hard punishments when he attacks bigger targets or steals of higher NPCs like in a church, castle etc.

That some NPCs will be unkillable is a bit of a setback though, takes away some immersion

It might had been a better idea to just make them very strong or let them run away like to a save spot.

WOW also has unkillable NPCs and I always felt this was a bit silly in world pvp, as they kept running around calling for help / attacking players but a player couldn't get rid of them.


Time will tell I guess,

thanks for the show @ ZOS

Allowances have to be made in an MMO where other players need to access their bank or specific venders. Besides, TES has always had essential NPCs who where unkillable because they were story important or tied to a quest.

That's why these NPCs should be strong, run for cover etc.

Its just that if criminals really attack a village then its horrible if they cant kill the NPC´s there but the NPCs them.

Why would anyone become a criminal if he has to face that problem? Its a reason why world pvp is dead at WOW since you cant kill NPCs but they kill you.

This isn't about accessing a bank, its about actually having a point of competing in world pvp / the justice system.

As explained in the ESO live, once you reach a specific type of "ranking" you wont be able to enter banks or vendors anymore. A criminal who takes such a big setback must get something in return and not another setback by immortal NPCs that wipe the floor with them.

Firstly you won't be able to kill "important" NPCs and Guards. That's it. Still plenty of NPCs you can kill.

However murder and theft is not something player should get rewarded for, but severely penalised. Heck that's why it's called Justice System.

Keep slaughtering people, you'll meet your Justice.

I don't intend to kill anyone,

I don't have such a criminal char yet and doubt I will pick that road anytime soon as its way to poor implemented & unfair for a player going that road.

However,

if I ever steal something then I want to have a fair chance to get away. This chance however I wont have if guards or NPCs wipe the floor with me.

All this "you cant do this, you cant do that" kills the justice system before its even implemented. What would pve players say if they cant kill a boss in a dungeon, just because its designed that way and that this dungeon now blocks their progress or positive outcome in the game?

Would this be accepted?

No, it wouldn't!

And exactly this must also apply to the justice system.

If they make npcs unkillable then criminals can not get away or remove their bounty by killing said witness. Every ES title gave you options to kill those who saw your crime just ESO doesn't. Its ridiculous to even think about this, criminals will be cannon fodder as they can be attacked by everyone while being unable to kill anything or get away.

How is this supposed to work and how is this supposed to motivate anyone into that skill line?

In the end people will only steal or rob when they can not be detected, leaving out a huge potential for the justice system and world pvp in general.

driosketch wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno, if you get a moment, could you please answer this question? I was wondering, say I decide to go full blown bandit on a random town somewhere. After a while, will all the NPCs that I mercilessly slaughter respawn, and if so, how long will it take?

Nothing against you for doing that. But this is the main reason why I think it's a mistake to launch the justice system w/o pvp. There are builds that can withstand amazing amounts of damange. Even with elite guards, it's possible, even likely that a character with a good build can stroll into any town and completely whipe out the entire population while other players just stand there and watch.

That person might think twice if there were a few well built PCs ready to defend that town.

So call me a prophet, but here is the thread I see coming shortly after phase 1:

"ZOS PLEASE hurry up with the justice pvp! People are endlessly farming guards and citizens and there is nothing we can do but watch it happen"

I can imagine sorcerers killing stuff and streaking away into the night.

I hope the justice system will not make "farming" citizens rewarding at all. That would be awful.

It would be a good idea to allow looting/pickpocketing citizens only when you had no heat. So you could only "farm" as long as your crime went undetected, but not after. Would make slaughtering a town unprofitable after the first witnessed kill. Though class balance when it comes to hiding/escaping heat would need addressing.

Audigy wrote: »

I watched the justice system preview now and so far I like what I saw, also thanks @ZOS_GinaBruno for asking my question.

The idea of the lock boxes is great, also that vendors wont trade with a criminal at some time.

I hope the Devs keep working on the system after it was applied, so that a Criminal has some type of freedom in what he does and isn't limited to a specific NPC type, yet will be facing hard punishments when he attacks bigger targets or steals of higher NPCs like in a church, castle etc.

That some NPCs will be unkillable is a bit of a setback though, takes away some immersion

It might had been a better idea to just make them very strong or let them run away like to a save spot.

WOW also has unkillable NPCs and I always felt this was a bit silly in world pvp, as they kept running around calling for help / attacking players but a player couldn't get rid of them.


Time will tell I guess,

thanks for the show @ ZOS

Allowances have to be made in an MMO where other players need to access their bank or specific venders. Besides, TES has always had essential NPCs who where unkillable because they were story important or tied to a quest.

That's why these NPCs should be strong, run for cover etc.

Its just that if criminals really attack a village then its horrible if they cant kill the NPC´s there but the NPCs them.

Why would anyone become a criminal if he has to face that problem? Its a reason why world pvp is dead at WOW since you cant kill NPCs but they kill you.

This isn't about accessing a bank, its about actually having a point of competing in world pvp / the justice system.

As explained in the ESO live, once you reach a specific type of "ranking" you wont be able to enter banks or vendors anymore. A criminal who takes such a big setback must get something in return and not another setback by immortal NPCs that wipe the floor with them.

Yes, but strong to who, a level 10 player or a VR 10? As mentioned above, there's a lot of balancing that needs to go into this. We also have enough trouble with moving bankers, we don't need other players being allowed to chase them away while you're trying to use them. This isn't one of the single player games, which by the way had NPCs that would cower and run away and who could kill you but you couldn't kill them.

A bank would actually be protected, so that not everyone who just wants to grief can go there.

If someone really kills the guards infront of the bank so that he may enter then there would be another wave of guards that he must kill and in the process that players bounty would be sky high and he would face serious setbacks.

Keep in mind, the hideout is limited ... in the video they showed 60 transactions I believe.

Only the biggest criminals would ever risk robbing a bank, so that the fear of bankers being inaccessible is a myth. It never happened at WOW in Vanilla and it would hardly happen at ESO now.


What some people might do is kill the grocery shop keeper, maybe the horse breeder etc. but they are not that busy either and would respawn quickly anyways and offer a tough challenge as well.

Just think about it, it would be awesome if someone could get a horse like that and wouldn't need to grind hundreds of hours to get the gold. It would be hard but it would finally be a free choice and an option and ESO lacks these options.

We are so limited in what we can do in this game, its an ES title unworthy.

I never stole a horse at Skyrim except once by mistake but to have the option was wonderful. In general, I miss being free n my decision - being the person that decides about my chars path.
-
Right now all I do is pre scripted by the Devs, I cant do anything that I might want to like rob a very expensive artifact to afford a new bank slot or to just start a relationship with an NPC that then moves to my house ...

GreyBrow wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

=

Allowances have to be made in an MMO where other players need to access their bank or specific venders. Besides, TES has always had essential NPCs who where unkillable because they were story important or tied to a quest.

this is not true

it was only in Skyrim when they noob-proofed the game and made certain NPC's unkillable.

Guards have ALWAYS been killable in Elder Scrolls games, that was half the fun, and allowed you to have a viable alternative than skukling around like some kind of sneak thief. If you murdered someone, but were not a "sneaky" character, your only option was to run or fight the guards, kill them, and then run.

IMO, @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ and the rest are noob proofing this game as well. 1 week after you implement this, mark my words, you will have every character in the game who is not a nightblade in here crying to you that they can't escape the guards, because 95% of the builds and classes are built to kill things, not sneak away.

Please, please, please use some common sense and make guards very strong, yet still killable, so that the players who do not choose to be sneaky have an alternative.... just like we did in every other elder scrolls game. Balance it with infinitely respawning guards or something, but making the justice system the primary forte of nightblades is a huge mistake that you will regret.

It is true. In Oblivion for example, and NPC with a crown was deemed essential, and while you could knock them down, you couldn't kill them. Look it up.

I wasn't even talking about killing guards, but as it keeps getting brought up, strong guards is not a blanket solution without serious modifications. (Oblivion's guards would level with you plus 10 levels or so.) I submit Blackwater Blade non-vet PvP Campaign as exhibit one. Here keep guards are strong to face Vet Ranked players, but no one in that campaign is a VR yet. They couldn't selectively nerf the guards so they opted to try and raise the battle leveling system instead. In PvE you only have your base stats. Very strong guards are functionally the same as unkillable to a new characters working their way up the new justice system.

Probably guards should simply spawn, using the scaling system to level to you, when you are witnessed committing a crime, just like in other Elder Scroll games.

GreyBrow wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

We also have enough trouble with moving bankers, we don't need other players being allowed to chase them away while you're trying to use them. This isn't one of the single player games, which by the way had NPCs that would cower and run away and who could kill you but you couldn't kill them.

You seem to have forgotten that this is an MMO. its SUPPOSED to be competitive. How many zones are there? how many towns in those zones? how many banks in those towns?

Deal with it. Go to another zone. that's why the world is so big.

Are you kidding, do you even play this game? There is one bank in all of Stonefalls. One. There is only the single bank in Glennumbra. I don't even need to invoke the new player without access to other zones, every player with a bank mule would be rightly upset if this was allowed.

What some people might do is kill the grocery shop keeper, maybe the horse breeder etc. but they are not that busy either and would respawn quickly anyways and offer a tough challenge as well.

@Audigy‌ That still sounds like it's open to griefing, but the above made me think of a compromise. Suppose you could knock certain vendors unconscious rather than kill them. You would still be able to loot them, and they would be a poor witness if they couldn't remember what hit them. Other players who needed to use said vendor could click the fallen NPC and get a short animation helping them up with a 'thanks, I don't know what hit me" dialogue. Much better than having to wait for an NPC to respawn only to have another griefer kill them right away. They would need a short leash so they didn't fall too far from their stand, and other players would need to be able to interrupt a fight to talk to the NPC.

So player A attacks grocer but takes a long time in the fight. Player B needs to talk to vender, faces and presses E. From player B's prospective, the NPC stops, turns to face player B, enter the dialouge interface where the NPC sheaths weapon and maybe comments on the "crime wave". From player A's prospective the NPC might stutter turn when B grabs their attention, but return attention to A with the next attack and B appears to be standing their staring into space.

GreyBrow wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

=


IMO, @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ and the rest are noob proofing this game as well. 1 week after you implement this, mark my words, you will have every character in the game who is not a nightblade in here crying to you that they can't escape the guards, because 95% of the builds and classes are built to kill things, not sneak away.

Please, please, please use some common sense and make guards very strong, yet still killable, so that the players who do not choose to be sneaky have an alternative.... just like we did in every other elder scrolls game. Balance it with infinitely respawning guards or something, but making the justice system the primary forte of nightblades is a huge mistake that you will regret.

Don't worry, they will break cloak again and NB's won't have a chance either

driosketch wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno, if you get a moment, could you please answer this question? I was wondering, say I decide to go full blown bandit on a random town somewhere. After a while, will all the NPCs that I mercilessly slaughter respawn, and if so, how long will it take?

Nothing against you for doing that. But this is the main reason why I think it's a mistake to launch the justice system w/o pvp. There are builds that can withstand amazing amounts of damange. Even with elite guards, it's possible, even likely that a character with a good build can stroll into any town and completely whipe out the entire population while other players just stand there and watch.

That person might think twice if there were a few well built PCs ready to defend that town.

So call me a prophet, but here is the thread I see coming shortly after phase 1:

"ZOS PLEASE hurry up with the justice pvp! People are endlessly farming guards and citizens and there is nothing we can do but watch it happen"

I can imagine sorcerers killing stuff and streaking away into the night.

I hope the justice system will not make "farming" citizens rewarding at all. That would be awful.

It would be a good idea to allow looting/pickpocketing citizens only when you had no heat. So you could only "farm" as long as your crime went undetected, but not after. Would make slaughtering a town unprofitable after the first witnessed kill. Though class balance when it comes to hiding/escaping heat would need addressing.

Audigy wrote: »

I watched the justice system preview now and so far I like what I saw, also thanks @ZOS_GinaBruno for asking my question.

The idea of the lock boxes is great, also that vendors wont trade with a criminal at some time.

I hope the Devs keep working on the system after it was applied, so that a Criminal has some type of freedom in what he does and isn't limited to a specific NPC type, yet will be facing hard punishments when he attacks bigger targets or steals of higher NPCs like in a church, castle etc.

That some NPCs will be unkillable is a bit of a setback though, takes away some immersion

It might had been a better idea to just make them very strong or let them run away like to a save spot.

WOW also has unkillable NPCs and I always felt this was a bit silly in world pvp, as they kept running around calling for help / attacking players but a player couldn't get rid of them.


Time will tell I guess,

thanks for the show @ ZOS

Allowances have to be made in an MMO where other players need to access their bank or specific venders. Besides, TES has always had essential NPCs who where unkillable because they were story important or tied to a quest.

That's why these NPCs should be strong, run for cover etc.

Its just that if criminals really attack a village then its horrible if they cant kill the NPC´s there but the NPCs them.

Why would anyone become a criminal if he has to face that problem? Its a reason why world pvp is dead at WOW since you cant kill NPCs but they kill you.

This isn't about accessing a bank, its about actually having a point of competing in world pvp / the justice system.

As explained in the ESO live, once you reach a specific type of "ranking" you wont be able to enter banks or vendors anymore. A criminal who takes such a big setback must get something in return and not another setback by immortal NPCs that wipe the floor with them.

Yes, but strong to who, a level 10 player or a VR 10? As mentioned above, there's a lot of balancing that needs to go into this. We also have enough trouble with moving bankers, we don't need other players being allowed to chase them away while you're trying to use them. This isn't one of the single player games, which by the way had NPCs that would cower and run away and who could kill you but you couldn't kill them.

You can't chase bankers away. They are unkillable NPC's, they will just take a knee or crouch but everyone else can still click them as normal.

zaria wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

Justice System is all fun and games until some kills a chicken

This brings up another issue, its pretty easy to simply click, fire and hit something in ESO, will it be an sort of safety on weapons/ spells.

No but you can opt out of the justice system with a toggle.
There are some "protective measures" as mentioned in the stream but no specifics.

I'm speculating that you'll have to have no bounty and no heat for some unspecified cooldown to toggle it off.
So if you get caught stealing or killing you'll be at risk of accidentally attacking an NPC until some time has past.