champion system, why 25,200??

Skullemainia · December 2014

paul sage said that there will be a maximum amount of champion points that one player can get. does somebody knows how much this is?

suppose that you could get all of the points then you would have to get 25,200 times the required amount of xp for one cp. am I the only one who thinks this is a ridiculous amount?? even if you can grind them at one every 20 min, you still need 8400hrs. that's almoust a year!!! ok, I get that it gives you the opportunity to keep improving your character. but why making it so endless?? was 100 points per skill not enough?? then you would only need 3,600 point in total, so an average player would still need 3,600 hrs (witch is 150 days) to have them all (an average player will never get there). but somebody who really wants to have every passive maxed out still needs to do a lot to get there. but there is a chance that he will ever get there before he dies of old age.

but... if there is a cap of champion points you can get, and it is a good cap (not 20,000 but let's say 3,000) then it will get interesting. but personally I think we will get a big cap or even no cap.

this is how I think of it, what do you think??

P.S: srry for posting this twice cause I posted it into the wrong category

ers101284b14_ESO · December 2014

No it's not crap. It's a good way of rewarding players for playing while also allowing them to make meaningful character progression. Not like he said how often the cap gets raised.

TheLaw · December 2014

They said it will take, on average, an hour to earn a champion point. They're also adding a rested xp system to make progression go by quicker (rested xp calcuated when logged off any toon). Really a great progression system IMO, if you want everything handed to you then you really shouldn't play MMO's.

Natjur · December 2014

They want to have an unending game, the difference between having 100 champion points and 1,000 points is not much. The player with 1,000 points its only going to be a little more powerful then the other player

Its like the different between having 270 skill points and 322 skill points. Sure it means you can do more things, but your not really move powerful.

Having 25,200 as the limit means most players will not get there (even tho they may raise the limit anyway) but it gives those who play all day long something to go for anyway

timidobserver · December 2014

I will have 25,200 by January.

Nihil · December 2014

Instead of looking at it as "I need to grind X amount of hours to max out" I suggest looking at it like "As I play I will continually get stronger". There was a time where people didn't need to be maxed in everything to be competitive, players could be a few levels different and still the one who could time their skills and movement stood the better chance. This system seems to be leading back to that playing style. They want to reward you for playing the game, people don't want to grind, and if they can get rewarded equally then it might lead to a more over all enjoyable experience.

Making an endless ( or very time consuming) progression system is good, it leaves people with something to continually look forward too. If they can find a way to balance it correctly between most play styles (play styles that don't obtain much exp will always be slower) then they can also promote the concept of playing the game just to have fun and not being forced to level.

Zed · December 2014

timidobserver wrote: »

I will have 25,200 by January.

I don't think that's physically possible.

Qyrk · December 2014

Why don't we wait until we get the final logistics behind the champion system before making these comments?

(something to ponder, you know)

Skullemainia · December 2014

Nihil wrote: »

Instead of looking at it as "I need to grind X amount of hours to max out" I suggest looking at it like "As I play I will continually get stronger". There was a time where people didn't need to be maxed in everything to be competitive, players could be a few levels different and still the one who could time their skills and movement stood the better chance. This system seems to be leading back to that playing style. They want to reward you for playing the game, people don't want to grind, and if they can get rewarded equally then it might lead to a more over all enjoyable experience.

Making an endless ( or very time consuming) progression system is good, it leaves people with something to continually look forward too. If they can find a way to balance it correctly between most play styles (play styles that don't obtain much exp will always be slower) then they can also promote the concept of playing the game just to have fun and not being forced to level.

I understand, but there are a lot of people who want to be the best, so they think; "if I have all the passives and the best armor and best weapons and best gear,.... then I will be a good player" I personally have never grind in TESO so far and I'm not going to, but a lot of players will.

Nihil · December 2014

Skullemainia wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

Instead of looking at it as "I need to grind X amount of hours to max out" I suggest looking at it like "As I play I will continually get stronger". There was a time where people didn't need to be maxed in everything to be competitive, players could be a few levels different and still the one who could time their skills and movement stood the better chance. This system seems to be leading back to that playing style. They want to reward you for playing the game, people don't want to grind, and if they can get rewarded equally then it might lead to a more over all enjoyable experience.

Making an endless ( or very time consuming) progression system is good, it leaves people with something to continually look forward too. If they can find a way to balance it correctly between most play styles (play styles that don't obtain much exp will always be slower) then they can also promote the concept of playing the game just to have fun and not being forced to level.

I understand, but there are a lot of people who want to be the best, so they think; "if I have all the passives and the best armor and best weapons and best gear,.... then I will be a good player" I personally have never grind in TESO so far and I'm not going to, but a lot of players will.

There will always be those players that is true, this type of system (if done right and balanced correctly) will probably frustrate those players drastically as they always need the .1 % more. If it is balanced tho, then those same players hopefully wont feel pressured to grind. If they want to do PVP hopefully they can earn champion points + some type of gear rewards + other rewards (skill points) that will be equivalent to dungeons champion points + gear rewards + other rewards which will be equivalent to grindings champion points + gear rewards + other rewards. If they keep everything equal and similar rate of growth then I see this as a great boon for players free time.

OrphanHelgen · December 2014

Zed wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I will have 25,200 by January.

I don't think that's physically possible.

4 japanese guys, playing on shifts.

They are out there somewhere.. just know it :-)

Bloodfang · December 2014

People should stop thinking about caps, be it level cap or these new champion points cap etc..ZOS is not making Champion System just to add a whole new ridiculous cap.

The problem with the Veteran Ranks wasn't how you had to "repeat" all the quests in the other faction zones. But the thing you weren't even getting any attribute points, prior to 1-50. You were getting nothing. Sure the quests were enjoyable and all, but people need to see some numbers to feel satisfied. Casuals were getting a new level every 20-40h (playtime), no wonder they /ragequit.

That is why Champion System is coming. It's not there so you can think about the cap (that is only for the elitists, completionists etc). They are adding it for everyone that is not feeling rewarded while playing.

Casuals won't be thinking about the cap..They will be impressed how they are getting points just by playing.

Dubah · December 2014

Man, lets put it like this. Everquest came out with a system called alternate advancements, where basically you can be max level with the best gear in the game, only the alternate advancements went beyond gear. With the champion system it will be nearly the same, and i met maybe a handful of people who actually maxed out their alternate advancements and not because they needed to. There will be passives and skill trees on their that healers and dps'ers wont even want, so even at 25,200 skill points max the average player will want maybe 5000 of those to make a difference of what he does. However you will always have those i want to be the best and greatest players who will aim for maxing everything out. But if you don't want to guess what, you don't have to. Also keep in mind that when the champion system does come out you will recieve points for being VR1+ and if you have alts you will also be rewarded points for their VR1+ as well. So all in all the system is going to give you the choice on where you want to specialise and also turn the difficulty down by you getting stronger. The champion system has already been stated will not have an effect on the games difficulty... YET. Therefore if power is what you are worried about i wouldnt let it affect you. IF they do this system right, the guy with 25,200 points will be just as easy to kill as the guy with 2,000 points.

I don't really do PvP however one thing i did notice is that there is no such thing as an easy target or a hard target. I've been able to kill every class even with crappier gear. PvP is focused more around strategy. So don't worry about that. Now if you try to take on another player head to head, that isn't strategy and you will probably get your butt kicked by a player with 25,200 points.

Circuitous · December 2014

Champion skills have diminishing returns, as well. The first 50% of points applied to a skill represents roughly 85% of the skill's maximum value. The numbers are estimations, of course, but illustrate the kind of system they've been talking about since its announcement.

After a while you're just quietly watching numbers go up, knowing they're not going to be what makes or breaks you. Then one day you'll max a skill out, and wonder where all that time went. Did you enjoy it?

Let it be about the journey, not the destination. Don't let a futile quest for perfection define you.

Medakon · December 2014

May ask where those this info come from? whats the sorche? any link?

firstdecan · December 2014

25,200 hours of playing would take a little over 12 years, assuming you're playing 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year (basically a full time job).

I really hope there's a shortcut this, I might not be alive long enough IRL to see end game.

Nihil · December 2014

Medakon wrote: »

May ask where those this info come from? whats the sorche? any link?

the 25,200 number comes from the fact they said you can spend up to 700 points in one perk in a constalation (700 * 4 * 9). To my knowledge they didn't actually say you could max out all stats some day... so if there is a cap it might be lower then that. If there isn't a cap then 25200 would be the cap as there would be no more skills to invest in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIaOzyOUL0 in there some where don't have time to find it at the moment.

xaraan · December 2014

It's not about grinding to the end/max level. That's the point. You are at max level already, and just play, earning xp to slowly build your way up in small ways through the champ system so you can continually get something from the xp you are earning.

DeLindsay · December 2014

Skullemainia wrote: »

am I the only one who thinks this is a ridiculous amount?? even if you can grind them at one every 20 min, you still need 8400hrs. that's almoust a year!!!

It's called lateral advancement and it's the way all MMO's SHOULD be for character advancement, after an arbitrary level cap. BTW, Eve Online has been going for over 11 years and there is not one person who is capped, having every single "talent", although it's called something different there. That type of system works perfectly because there is nobody that's "the best" since it allows players to tweak builds differently in so many combinations (until they have all points available). You can have a player that has a relatively new character and they might beat a player that has a character from 5-day early access due to how they chose to talent their CP.

Rift also has this system, called Planar Attunement, and Trion keeps adding things to it to help keep people from capping it and allowing further lateral advancement. ZoS will likely do the same thing and that's great. Also, people need to realize how this is going to work before getting upset. The first point in w/e tree you choose gives basically a 0.5% increase. After some number of CP in the same thing it declines to a point when you're getting maybe no more than 0.01% benefit from the same CP as the first. This means NOBODY is going to be OMGWTFPWNBBQ in any particular discipline, it's meant to allow players fine tune their character the way they enjoy to play.

kongkim · December 2014

Way have a cap. at all. make a system that just keep on going.

Dubah · December 2014

If you didnt have caps then one class could potentially be better than the rest. The whole point of this system is not only balance and sideways advancement but to ensure the game can last and expand. With this system and how much they are releasing, they need to hold back a bit, and with the game advancing as fast as it is it will leave room for further skill advancements and stat increases because you know that is coming too. Hopefully with the champion system. The problem is numbers, a game with huge numbers has some room for error but the game with small numbers like this game has very little room for error if none. Right now they can't make a mob that hits so hard it will make you think twice before engaging it and with big numbers they can do that. Balance comes with big numbers. And hopefully when the champion system comes out the big numbers will too

timidobserver · December 2014

Zed wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I will have 25,200 by January.

I don't think that's physically possible.

Don't worry. I'll be sure to screen shot it for you in my "First to 25,200" thread that I will create on January 1st.

liquid_wolf · December 2014

Based on the interviews and sessions, it looks like people can earn those points at about an hour per point of earned xp.

700 points? 700 hours?

I think I had a character in an MMORPG who had a /played time of one year... after many years of gaming.

mandragor1996 · December 2014

25200 ways to be different than the other players? The only reason not to have near infinite progression is to prevent power creep from making content stale. Beyond that ending progression just means having less to do. Most people find another game to play. If you want to be the top of the hill then just be ahead of the curve which means more activity by players in game which means more active community and player base. Not seeing a downside here.

DeLindsay · December 2014

Nihil wrote: »

the 25,200 number comes from the fact they said you can spend up to 700 points in one perk in a constalation (700 * 4 * 9).

What I've heard/read is that when it launches there will be a grand total of 700 CP, period. ZoS will likely add to this with future content updates. Even at 700 points it will take seriously dedicated players plenty of time to get there and that player won't be all that much better than a player with 100 CP. My guesstimate is that any player with (1) VR14 plus various levels of alts will start with 20-50 CP when it launches. It comes down less to how many Vets you have but more how much time you have played ALL characters earning XP from the time they started counting it towards the Champion system.

Take as an example just my main (VR12 now). He has about 28 days played. If half of that time he was earning XP then from JUST that character alone and based on roughly 1 hour per CP, I should start with over 300 CP. That ofc is just plain silly since I can guarantee you there are players with double the amount of played time as my main and wouldn't be surprised if there are people with enough time in game earning XP to cap CP the moment it's launched so obviously ZoS will have to come up with some arbitrary value to start players' accounts at.

Xjcon · December 2014

Until all the facts of the new system are laid out we will not know for certain. Speculating as to how it will take years to get something at this point is silly.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · December 2014

Skullemainia wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

Instead of looking at it as "I need to grind X amount of hours to max out" I suggest looking at it like "As I play I will continually get stronger". There was a time where people didn't need to be maxed in everything to be competitive, players could be a few levels different and still the one who could time their skills and movement stood the better chance. This system seems to be leading back to that playing style. They want to reward you for playing the game, people don't want to grind, and if they can get rewarded equally then it might lead to a more over all enjoyable experience.

Making an endless ( or very time consuming) progression system is good, it leaves people with something to continually look forward too. If they can find a way to balance it correctly between most play styles (play styles that don't obtain much exp will always be slower) then they can also promote the concept of playing the game just to have fun and not being forced to level.

I understand, but there are a lot of people who want to be the best, so they think; "if I have all the passives and the best armor and best weapons and best gear,.... then I will be a good player" I personally have never grind in TESO so far and I'm not going to, but a lot of players will.

Who cares? if they want all of it now or they need to grind to top before they can " play for real" who really cares its their problem. If its a problem there is no top to grind to that is crazy, grinding is a *** chore and only exists because of the need to reach end game faster; reducing the need to grind should be embraced. I think the system sounds great so far. An account wide unending progression system where leveling each character is contributing to others is the best idea I think I ever heard, for a game. its only a shame they didnt think of it in the first place

Nihil · December 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

the 25,200 number comes from the fact they said you can spend up to 700 points in one perk in a constalation (700 * 4 * 9).

What I've heard/read is that when it launches there will be a grand total of 700 CP, period. ZoS will likely add to this with future content updates. Even at 700 points it will take seriously dedicated players plenty of time to get there and that player won't be all that much better than a player with 100 CP. My guesstimate is that any player with (1) VR14 plus various levels of alts will start with 20-50 CP when it launches. It comes down less to how many Vets you have but more how much time you have played ALL characters earning XP from the time they started counting it towards the Champion system.

Take as an example just my main (VR12 now). He has about 28 days played. If half of that time he was earning XP then from JUST that character alone and based on roughly 1 hour per CP, I should start with over 300 CP. That ofc is just plain silly since I can guarantee you there are players with double the amount of played time as my main and wouldn't be surprised if there are people with enough time in game earning XP to cap CP the moment it's launched so obviously ZoS will have to come up with some arbitrary value to start players' accounts at.

If you reference the youtube video I linked. At about 1:50:50 they mention that you can put 700 points in one star. I have yet to read any where that at launch they will limit it just to 700 points total (there has also been no announcement on what the max amount of cp you can start with). I could see them limiting the number to less then 25200 points at the beginning to avoid possible exploits, and add more points later, but there is no evidence for or against this that I have seen come up yet.

A player with 700 points will actually have some advantages over the player with 100 cp, mainly that they will probably have unlocked 3-6 of the the 100 abilities in the constellation. A player in the past basically said that their will be specific points where player will notice a difference in powers. You need 300 cp to unlock the first 100 point constellation passive, so that will most likely be the first point where people might notice a difference in players power.

Bloodfang · December 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

the 25,200 number comes from the fact they said you can spend up to 700 points in one perk in a constalation (700 * 4 * 9).

What I've heard/read is that when it launches there will be a grand total of 700 CP, period. ZoS will likely add to this with future content updates. Even at 700 points it will take seriously dedicated players plenty of time to get there and that player won't be all that much better than a player with 100 CP. My guesstimate is that any player with (1) VR14 plus various levels of alts will start with 20-50 CP when it launches. It comes down less to how many Vets you have but more how much time you have played ALL characters earning XP from the time they started counting it towards the Champion system.

Take as an example just my main (VR12 now). He has about 28 days played. If half of that time he was earning XP then from JUST that character alone and based on roughly 1 hour per CP, I should start with over 300 CP. That ofc is just plain silly since I can guarantee you there are players with double the amount of played time as my main and wouldn't be surprised if there are people with enough time in game earning XP to cap CP the moment it's launched so obviously ZoS will have to come up with some arbitrary value to start players' accounts at.

I'm pretty sure there will be a cap at launch of champion system. I don't see anyone having more than 300 points just from the launch.

Sublime · December 2014

They said that they will cap the amount of points given at the launch, in order to avoid player gaps right from the beginning. So it will probably be a rather small amount.