ZOS and roleplaying

MornaBaine · December 2014

So during a discussion on teso-rp where I asked my fellow roleplayers if they felt ESO REALLY supported roleplayers as they say they do the Quakecon video came up, specifically in regards to a question that was asked and Paul Sage's response to it.

You can watch here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jk7LrLgRfg#t=5558
and the question and answer are at: 1:38:10

Q: What do we have planned for roleplayers in the future?

Paul Sage's Answer: (I have omitted the copious use of "uhhhh" and TRIED to make complete sentences out of what he said where possible.)

"So I did mention some things there for roleplayers. You know I think any time you have immersion game play systems where you have things like thieving... and you know the player guard systems those are fun... but I also think that the things where players can reward other players, where players can own property in the game or something like that ... You know we just started with our the guild traders coming in and I think those are systems that really appeal to roleplayers. It's definitely something we're acutely aware of and want to make sure we get into the game. So I think it's just going to be an ongoing effort over time honestly."

I would like to say here that I also watched every single other segment where he spoke and not once did I hear him either mention roleplaying or refer to roleplaying. EXCEPT for when he answered the question regarding character customization and barber shop where he responds by saying they've been working on " ...a lot of different customization options for players."

And then goes on to say:
"The way I'd like to see this introduced is more of an RP mechanic where players can earn these and give them to each other."

He also says, "I think that's a fun thing for people to be able to do and so you know that's something that we're working on but I know the artists already have lots more customization options so absolutely it's coming it's just a matter of how and when." This can be seen at: 1:48:40.

I think I'm beginning to see the problem here though. Mr. Sage does not appear to know what roleplaying is. He seems to see it as an aspect of the original ES single player games, which are indeed referred to as RPGs. But of course this is really misleading. Because you CAN'T roleplay without other players. Roleplaying REALLY refers to the activity conducted in the old pen and paper RPGs like Dungeons & Dragons and the many games that came after it. In those games, you the player SAID what your character was saying and explained what your character was doing. In an MMO roleplayers are forced to just type that out in chat, and if we're lucky there will be a few emotes available that allow us to help illustrate. Roleplaying is about interacting with each other and playing a role. And I'm just not sure Mr. Sage understands that. Hairstyles, while they enhance player enjoyment of their character, are NOT aspects of roleplaying. Trade guilds and kiosks are NOT aspects of roleplaying even though they CAN be used by roleplayers to, say, enhance the image of a character or characters that are part of a caravan or trading house. But in and of themselves, they really have nothing to do with roleplaying.
So here's my mission for you fellow forum haunters who also happen to be roleplayers. Please tell Mr. Sage what roleplaying actually is and give him examples of things that actually pertain to and/or would enhance roleplaying. Thank you.

chipputer · December 2014

Just jumping in to say that I would like to see a wider variety of emotes for roleplay purposes.

I don't actively roleplay, but I make quest choices and equipment choices based on my light roleplay. When I walk into a bar in Deshaan and see a bunch of roleplayers utilizing a lesser used chat channel to roleplay, they are all literally blankly standing there typing out the explanation of their actions and thoughts and it's... off putting.

The emotes don't last long enough for them to make their character physically eat a large meal over a large amount of time, or actually physically wave the bartender over, and whatnot.

And that's not to mention the flack they catch from ignorant zone chatters the second they go to recruit fellow RPers to go questing.

More support would definitely be appreciated. Even if I don't participate, I hate seeing the RP community get the shaft because I genuinely enjoy walking into places with RPers and going about my business while they do whatever they're doing. Makes the world actually feel alive.

bellanca6561n · December 2014

Paul Sage was a member of the original Ultima Online design team. He is more than a bit familiar with what roleplaying is.

What Paul is not terribly good at is [snip]. In over 25 years in this business I have never encountered a designer with more integrity or a more comprehensive grasp of this medium.

What he doesn't have, and what no creative director has, is absolute authority to realize every priority on his wish list.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Cherryblossom · December 2014

You have bubbles what more do you want!

MornaBaine · December 2014

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Paul Sage was a member of the original Ultima Online design team. He is more than a bit familiar with what roleplaying is.

What Paul is not terribly good at is [snip]. In over 25 years in this business I have never encountered a designer with more integrity or a more comprehensive grasp of this medium.

What he doesn't have, and what no creative director has, is absolute authority to realize every priority on his wish list.

Okay that maybe makes me feel a LITTLE better. Maybe. It might also explain that while he was clear and concise in all the other segments where he talked, including answering other questions, he literally stumbled all over this particular answer. There was barely a coherent sentence in there and the use of "uhhh" was pretty staggering when compared to the far more professional responses he gave to other questions. Clearly, he was scrambling, or, as you put it, [snip]. But I have to say I'm not too happy about that.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

dharbert · December 2014

Instead of transcribing all of that, all you had to say is what is obvious to the rest of us. He basically told RP'ers to pound sand, in a roundabout way.

chipputer · December 2014

dharbert wrote: »

Instead of transcribing all of that, all you had to say is what is obvious to the rest of us. He basically told RP'ers to pound sand, in a roundabout way.

I'd agree with you except for the fact that the only people who would have bothered to confirm that the video reflected the post would have been those who already agreed with the OP anyway.

Safer to transcribe, or use timestamps (or both) than to not.

MornaBaine · December 2014

dharbert wrote: »

Instead of transcribing all of that, all you had to say is what is obvious to the rest of us. He basically told RP'ers to pound sand, in a roundabout way.

LOL Okay you may be right there. I've yet to see a game that, while in development, didn't promise roleplayers the moon and then deliver on virtually none of it or would finally throw a few bones our way a few years down the line. Player housing in SWTOR anyone? The game is how old now and they're just finally giving that to players? And, of course, player housing isn't even "on the roadmap" in ESO yet and may never be. I've yet to see anything even remotely encouraging to roleplayers in this game.

bellanca6561n · December 2014

Never meant to suggest you should have been happy. Paul is one of the good guys in this business though....none better actually.

But when you're at events like this you're thinking about what you can specifically deliver in the near term. While it might have been wiser, in hindsight, to have deferred an answer entirely, that's hard to do.

Gilvoth · December 2014

a very sadd reality. i am amazed that it took the audiance this long to see the truth. as we have been witnessing thier words and work since 2012 and early 2013.

MornaBaine · December 2014

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Never meant to suggest you should have been happy. Paul is one of the good guys in this business though....none better actually.

But when you're at events like this you're thinking about what you can specifically deliver in the near term. While it might have been wiser, in hindsight, to have deferred an answer entirely, that's hard to do.

Well there's been zero support for RP pretty much since the game launched despite numerous threads asking for various RP-enhancing things or letting the powers that be know what sorts of things roleplayers really desire. So it's not like Mr. Sage has no idea that this is a thing. A little less responding like a US politician and a little more straight up honesty would probably go a long way.

chipputer · December 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

A little less responding like a US politician and a little more straight up honestly would probably go a long way.

At the same time, though, if he were to respond honestly and the answer wasn't what people wanted they would react in the same negative light that many are, now.

There's no way he could win with any of his answers to that question unless he could truthfully say that RPers would be seeing support and show exactly how they would be.

I'd prefer honesty as well, but sometimes the political approach is all you can do. You can't please everyone all the time.

Rosveen · December 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Hairstyles, while they enhance player enjoyment of their character, are NOT aspects of roleplaying.

Why not? It's another way of expression. Your clothes, body markings, piercings, hairstyle all help show your character's personality, social position etc. Someone roleplaying a monk might want to shave her character's hair. Or you could play a character coming from a culture where long hair has spiritual importance. It may not be a crucial aspect of roleplaying, but IMO it's still a part of it. Though of course you're right, a barbershop isn't exactly what we need right now to improve the roleplaying experience in ESO...

Robocles · December 2014

Chat bubbles help I suppose. I truly hate the fact that I have to work so hard to even face another player, though. Targeted emotes and the ability to actually turn in place would help a lot. But, since this is a console game on a pc, that seems to be something we'll never see.

MornaBaine · December 2014

chipputer wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

A little less responding like a US politician and a little more straight up honestly would probably go a long way.

At the same time, though, if he were to respond honestly and the answer wasn't what people wanted they would react in the same negative light that many are, now.

There's no way he could win with any of his answers to that question unless he could truthfully say that RPers would be seeing support and show exactly how they would be.

I'd prefer honesty as well, but sometimes the political approach is all you can do. You can't please everyone all the time.

At the very least, he might say that, like with housing, it's something they'd like to do in the future but "isn't currently on the roadmap." That would at least be honest and not silly like telling us that trader kiosks are for roleplayers and are something roleplayers really like! LOL That totally inspired a literal "WTF???" from me!

bellanca6561n · December 2014

Zero support for roleplaying.....hmmm....

I'm curious. Which online games have more emotes supported by mo-cap? I honestly don't know.

How many racial motifs do we have? After 7 years, I know Lord of the Rings Online had more styles and had support for cosmetic clothing separate from tactical.

We have a real problem in this game with forced emotes but, again, it has taken other games years to tackle this one.

ESO has regular and elaborate RP events. I've posted a few videos of them here but there's a nifty You Tube channel that features a nice collection:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBkuyXwnKwFTF3gWAdnZ8tw

I'm not saying it all hunky dorey for RP in this game but it's a decent start. Yes, we need to be able to at least tie back our hair but I'd take issue with there being zero support here....

MornaBaine · December 2014

Rosveen wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Hairstyles, while they enhance player enjoyment of their character, are NOT aspects of roleplaying.

Why not? It's another way of expression. Your clothes, body markings, piercings, hairstyle all help show your character's personality, social position etc. Someone roleplaying a monk might want to shave her character's hair. Or you could play a character coming from a culture where long hair has spiritual importance. It may not be a crucial aspect of roleplaying, but IMO it's still a part of it. Though of course you're right, a barbershop isn't exactly what we need right now to improve the roleplaying experience in ESO...

Character customization IS something that is really important to roleplayers but even those who don't RP really like it as well. It adds something to RP certainly but isn't the same as, say, being able to sit on chairs and benches in the game.

MornaBaine · December 2014

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Zero support for roleplaying.....hmmm....

I'm curious. Which online games have more emotes supported by mo-cap? I honestly don't know.

How many racial motifs do we have? After 7 years, I know Lord of the Rings Online had more styles and had support for cosmetic clothing separate from tactical.

We have a real problem in this game with forced emotes but, again, it has taken other games years to tackle this one.

ESO has regular and elaborate RP events. I've posted a few videos of them here but there's a nifty You Tube channel that features a nice collection:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBkuyXwnKwFTF3gWAdnZ8tw

I'm not saying it all hunky dorey for RP in this game but it's a decent start. Yes, we need to be able to at least tie back our hair but I'd take issue with there being zero support here....

The ONE thing I have seen them do, and for which I am duly grateful, is respond when they get a bunch of reports about a player griefing RP. They actually do respond and remove them. And that's freaking HUGE.

And yes, they'll send a GM to your RP event if you ask. Also, huge. It was great when they made a bunch of NPC emotes available to players. I love them. But they still need to add a lot more.

But, aside from GM presence, how does this game support RP events? If I am gamemastering an RP event I want the ability to say, "Hey, I want to drop 3 Daedroths here." I want to be able to use the game world as a backdrop for my guild's own RP storylines. I want to be able to say, "At 9:00PM EST on Tuesday Dec. 5th the farm in Northpoint is going to be overrun by bloodfiends. Oh and once they're cleared, you'll have to deal with a master vampire boss." And I wanna name that boss and choose their sex. Yeah, that is TOTAL pie in the sky for an MMO and I've only even heard of ONE MMO that would do that kind of thing for you...and it isn't around anymore I don't think. But THAT is where I want to see MMOs head in the future.

But for now...I'd settle for housing, even minimal housing. But that's not even "on the roadmap."

Tonturri · December 2014

@MornaBaine Neverwinter online from Cryptic has a thing like that called the Foundry. You can prettyt much make your quest with total freedom, except for loot drops.

If ESO implemented something even remotely similar to what NWO has, I'd be here for life.

MrGhosty · December 2014

While I'm not a big RPer in ESO, I did spend years doing it in other games and the greatest tool in an RPers toolkit is their ability to utilize their imagination. I wouldn't say that RPers are getting any less or more of the shaft as other players. I think it's safe to say everyone wants housing and that's not been messaged and even more key aspects of Elder Scrolls are still missing as well.

I would like to see the ability to sync emotes with other players like the instruments or the handing animation. The ability to sit would also be useful to allow for the eating and drinking animations while sat would do great for immersion.

I would also argue that you don't have to have other people to roleplay, my character in Skyrim has a long history and I continue to play the game via aspects that enhance the roleplay such as not fast travelling, returning home by nightfall etc. In my opinion there is no right or wrong way to roleplay, so while his relations of RP in terms of the Kiosks, etc don't fit well into some types of Roleplay I would argue that they facilitate making our make believe real. It always annoyed me that in a game where I would want to play a merchant I'd have no way to "walk the walk" with kiosks and some of the other game mechanics you can actually do your profession. I've come across people who while selling items or otherwise interacting with other players did so in character and it was an awesome experience. The one thing I do wish is that we get instanced housing soon, I can't count the number of times I'd run into a bedroom in the inns around tamriel and come face to face with two players on a bed...that's just awkward.

bellanca6561n · December 2014

I'm with you on this. The only issue we have, Morna, is our level of optimism and perhaps our reservoir of patience

And my reason for that is that I worked with Paul at Origin - a freak of chance in this case - and he is the reason I took up this game.

Of course that may also be why I might sound a bit....er.....defensive when his name is brought up in a negative context $:\$

Laerania_ESO · December 2014

I'm pretty sure that RP in ESO is not the only thing that requires imagination. Just saying

Heishi · December 2014

chipputer wrote: »

Just jumping in to say that I would like to see a wider variety of emotes for roleplay purposes.

I don't actively roleplay, but I make quest choices and equipment choices based on my light roleplay. When I walk into a bar in Deshaan and see a bunch of roleplayers utilizing a lesser used chat channel to roleplay, they are all literally blankly standing there typing out the explanation of their actions and thoughts and it's... off putting.

The emotes don't last long enough for them to make their character physically eat a large meal over a large amount of time, or actually physically wave the bartender over, and whatnot.

And that's not to mention the flack they catch from ignorant zone chatters the second they go to recruit fellow RPers to go questing.

More support would definitely be appreciated. Even if I don't participate, I hate seeing the RP community get the shaft because I genuinely enjoy walking into places with RPers and going about my business while they do whatever they're doing. Makes the world actually feel alive.

There are presently 163 emotes(actually more, I know a few not in the wikia), more than I've seen in most games. They continue to add more, yet it's still not enough? For the example waving the bartender over. Have you tried /beckon? /come? /comehere? There are some commands that do the same things for easier access, but over all the emote system is still pretty robust.

elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Emotes

Robocles · December 2014

I can't turn to face somebody... I can't target them with an emote.

163 emotes is nice... but it would be nice to be able to use them in a seamless manner, without resorting to using block or some other mechanic to position my toon.

MornaBaine · December 2014

Robocles wrote: »

I can't turn to face somebody... I can't target them with an emote.

163 emotes is nice... but it would be nice to be able to use them in a seamless manner, without resorting to using block or some other mechanic to position my toon.

This. Also, I think it's cool that if I target another character my character turns to look at them. But only -I- get that visual, NOT the character I am looking at. My husband and I play side by side and we've tested that extensively. On my screen my character will have turned her head to be looking at him...but on his screen she'll be looking somewhere else entirely.

MornaBaine · December 2014

bellanca6561n wrote: »

I'm with you on this. The only issue we have, Morna, is our level of optimism and perhaps our reservoir of patience And my reason for that is that I worked with Paul at Origin - a freak of chance in this case - and he is the reason I took up this game.

Of course that may also be why I might sound a bit....er.....defensive when his name is brought up in a negative context $:\$

I'm sure he probably is a really nice guy and a competent Dev. But there have been TWO things that matter to me that were asked of him. One was about roleplaying and the other was my own question regarding vampires. He dropped the ball HORRIBLY on both. And his "answers" on both definitely left me feeling that A) these things are not even on his radar, B ) he could care less about them and C) I have the proverbial snowflake's chance in hell of ever seeing them addressed and certainly not in any manner that would make me happy. If I actually do unsub (and I've been close) it probably WILL be due directly to Paul Sage.

Sindala · December 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

You know we just started with our the guild traders coming in and I think those are systems that really appeal to roleplayers.

LOL, omg!!! hehehahahahHAHAHAHA!!!!! oh poo....I just wet myself...

Robocles · December 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

I can't turn to face somebody... I can't target them with an emote.

163 emotes is nice... but it would be nice to be able to use them in a seamless manner, without resorting to using block or some other mechanic to position my toon.

This. Also, I think it's cool that if I target another character my character turns to look at them. But only -I- get that visual, NOT the character I am looking at. My husband and I play side by side and we've tested that extensively. On my screen my character will have turned her head to be looking at him...but on his screen she'll be looking somewhere else entirely.

Not to mention that you can have entirely different weather.

MornaBaine · December 2014

Robocles wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

I can't turn to face somebody... I can't target them with an emote.

163 emotes is nice... but it would be nice to be able to use them in a seamless manner, without resorting to using block or some other mechanic to position my toon.

This. Also, I think it's cool that if I target another character my character turns to look at them. But only -I- get that visual, NOT the character I am looking at. My husband and I play side by side and we've tested that extensively. On my screen my character will have turned her head to be looking at him...but on his screen she'll be looking somewhere else entirely.

Not to mention that you can have entirely different weather.

I actually made a whole thread about that! LOL It's...well I can't put this nicely...it's just kind of stupid.

MornaBaine · December 2014

Sindala wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

You know we just started with our the guild traders coming in and I think those are systems that really appeal to roleplayers.

LOL, omg!!! hehehahahahHAHAHAHA!!!!! oh poo....I just wet myself...

Yeah. That was LITERALLY the part that made me stop and think, "UM...he doesn't actually know what roleplaying is, does he?"

Robocles · December 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

I can't turn to face somebody... I can't target them with an emote.

163 emotes is nice... but it would be nice to be able to use them in a seamless manner, without resorting to using block or some other mechanic to position my toon.

This. Also, I think it's cool that if I target another character my character turns to look at them. But only -I- get that visual, NOT the character I am looking at. My husband and I play side by side and we've tested that extensively. On my screen my character will have turned her head to be looking at him...but on his screen she'll be looking somewhere else entirely.

Not to mention that you can have entirely different weather.

I actually made a whole thread about that! LOL It's...well I can't put this nicely...it's just kind of stupid.

Yeah... I saw that one. I tested it myself after I read that. Truly inane for that to be the case.