Are gamepads/macros considered bad form?

GrimMauKin · November 2014

Rather unexpectedly I was given a Logitec G13 gamepad as a birthday present. It feels rather odd compared to my nice mechanical keyboard and mouse that I'm used to play TESO on, so I'm not sure that I'll be using it to play. However, I can see huge potential for macros and multi-key presses assigned to single keys (such as assigning a weapon swap + skill + weapon swap to effectively access all 12 skills from single key presses).

Some gaming keyboards have similar functionality; are macros/multi-key assignments considered bad form/cheating or does anything go?

ZOS_GaryA · November 2014

Hey there @GrimMauKin‌,

We recommend reviewing the Terms of Service in relation to this inquiry.

Gorthax · November 2014

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Hey there @GrimMauKin‌,

We recommend reviewing the Terms of Service in relation to this inquiry.

tell that to the people using macros to animation cancel all day long.....that are still playing. I say go for it @GrimMauKin‌ people are using macros every day to animation cancel and get an edge up in pvp and trials. Do whatever you want.

But read the ToS before you do as macros are considered cheating. Yet, here we are, people are STILL doing so in the game

Thechemicals · November 2014

Here is wall of text, now find it.

TequilaFire · November 2014

The TOS needs to define the difference between a hardware macro and third party software macros better.
My keyboards can memorize keystrokes without external software.

Most good game software has caps on fire rates and the miniumum time allowed between keypress, etc.

bosmern_ESO · November 2014

Well I have the Razer Orbweaver but I don't use it for macros or anything.

It has all the keys i need on it, has my abilities and almost all of my shortcut keys to open the map, bag, skills, etc. I really only use my keyboard for typing.

Using it for stuff like I am is fine, but if you keybind macros onto them then that could be against the rules. My Razer Black widow pro even has 5 macro buttons but I don't use them.

GrimMauKin · November 2014

I'm quite happy playing with my mouse and keyboard, but just wondered.

TequilaFire · November 2014

I also have a Black Widow and don't find much advantage using a macro myself.
But with all the lag and abilities firing seconds later who can tell if some one is using a macro.

ZOS_GaryA · November 2014

Thechemicals wrote: »

Here is wall of text, now find it.

Fair enough :P. Section 9 is the section specific to the context of the question.

BCBasher · November 2014

I use macros for useful or funny emotes, is /followme
or/bucketsplash
Gonna get me banned Gary?

AlexDougherty · November 2014

To answer the actual question, using gamepads is not considered bad form, but using macros is considered lazy.

This is seperate to whether they are allowed or not, which the TOS that Zos_GaryA referred you to will clarify.

Gorthax · November 2014

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Here is wall of text, now find it.

Fair enough :P. Section 9 is the section specific to the context of the question.

nicely done ^_^

clayandaudrey_ESO · November 2014

Gorthax wrote: »

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Here is wall of text, now find it.

Fair enough :P. Section 9 is the section specific to the context of the question.

nicely done ^_^

Should have been done to start. Naughty naughty

Samadhi · November 2014

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

So gamepads and programmable mice are allowed so long as they rely on human input?

Aka: don't program a macro and then go afk leaving it farming for you and things should be fine.

Tonnopesce · November 2014

@ZOS_GaryA‌ it is funny that you have mentioned this parte of the TOS because i clearly remember during beta a lot of answer by the zos team encouraging players to use software as xpadder to use the gamepad in game.
Now tecnically even xpadder allow the use of macros and i admit that i use x padder due to my console attitude ( i dont use macros i've learned what macros are in this forum )
Btw i use a pseudo macro for swap between the CH, skills, map ,group, guild pages even this considered cheating?
I have no problem to link at the zos CS my set-up (i have nothing to hide)
but is strange that first you are encouraging the use and then you punish people who use it.
Hope you will clear my position, thank you

helediron · November 2014

There is a growing group of us older players, to whom these keyboards are saviours. Just check another recent thread here about G13 keyboard how it helped one player suffering from arthritis to stay in the game. I am also using simple macros to reduce repetitive clicks, which started to escalate to constant pain in fingers. These keyboards are not used for cheating but compensating the years that have piled up.

kijima · November 2014

Great, but what does Not Authorized mean as far as ZOS are concerned?

Gyudan · November 2014

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

Does that mean I shouldn't use my dwemer spider anymore?

danno8 · November 2014

I don't use or have any macro capabilities, but it would be nice if the ToS was a bit more clear.

A "one key = one action" policy would be clearer.

rwelshmub17_ESO · November 2014

Agree with Helediron,

The razor orbweaver has been a lifesaver for me as well. Being a little older its great. I dont have any macros programmed but have keys programmed for roll/dodge etc.

s7732425ub17_ESO · November 2014

Here is the simple answer:

You are allowed to perform 1 action per input. This means that any input, a mouse button click, a keyboard key hit, moving the scroll wheel, is allowed to do 1 thing and 1 thing only.

If you hit a key and it does more than one thing- say that you hit the "a" key and you roll dodge and also weapon switch- this is bannable.

If you click any button on your mouse, you are allowed to do 1 action. If you click a mouse button and you do more than 1 action- such as weapon swap and use an ability- this is bannable.

It's really not hard to understand people.

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

Belkin N52te. I will use this thing until the day it dies, and then I'm replacing it with a Razer Tartarus or something of a similar nature. I actually used to mock these things until a friend gave me one years ago for my birthday. Now I can't imagine life without it.

EDIT* Also, don't freaking use Macros man, that's poor form. Play the game or don't play the game, but don't make a software command play it for you, lazy ass =P

Deheart · November 2014

My opinion based on seeing various people being banned on various online games --- If they make money off you and not enough people complain about you and you aren't actually bottling, macros are ok. But if you get tagged and/or you get enough complainers you probably will be banned for violating the TOS, no matter if you violated it or not. Using any macros is chancy on any game.

The TOS just covers their ass if they see you as a problem.

GrimMauKin · November 2014

So as I understand it, assigning single key presses to single keys is fair play, but macros are supposedly not?

Syntse · November 2014

TOS is not really specific on the use of macros. Basically I think it tries to state that bots and some 3rd party software are now allowed.

Maybe press one button and win fight would be against it too. However I think you can macro the use of like 'easy quick slots' and use together into one button. Also I think many people are also using something like outfitter and macro to quickly change.

Also IMO something like switch, skill, switch is not too much. There is discussion about that on other thread though. It is after all something that you can do anyway but maybe save tenths of a second by macroing it. Given the lagginess of the game half of the time that macro would fail to execute.

Controllers and pads use all you like I don't see issue there. Macros maybe keep it simple. Zos will not give any clear answer here as if they decide something is not allowed they cannot be referred to their statement and will only refer to ToS which is very vague.

Enodoc · November 2014

It'll be interesting to see what the controls for consoles are going to be. With less button options, some things will have to be altered.

Lettigall · November 2014

Lets think about keyboard/mouse software this way:

Is it 3rd party software?- Yes!
Does it give you advantage against other players?- Yes!
Are they authorized by ZeniMax to use?- NO!

By TOS macros aren't allowed and shouldn't be. It would promote players who uses certain manufacturer production but leaves in disadvantage players whose keyboard/mouse doesn't have macro software.

TehMagnus · November 2014

It's sad that a ZOS representative doesn't dare to say "Macros are illegal", instead, he points you to a complex text that can be interpreted in many ways an which allows ZOS to more or less define as they wish what is and isn't allowed.

If you look at the text:

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax

<= where is the list of what is and isn't authorized?

that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities

<= Are macros advantaging us? I tried using them, worked perfectly on mammoths and failed horribly in trials because of animation lag, I don't call that an advantage. In the same way, you can consider that addons are against the rules since they do influence and advantage our playing abilities.

Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax.

This pretty much means that any launcher (like the ones that allow you to dezoom more, remove the FOG, center camera) are against terms of service. It also means that if a developer creates a program that will explore the files generated by an addon to automatically submit that information to a database (character profile, sales information, map markers, dungeon loot) isn't respecting the TOS.

In game customer support has the same way of dealing with these questions, instead of answering "it is or isn't legal to do this or that", they point you to the TOS which are clearly not being respected by ZOS.

This is just like going to a cop and asking if it's illegal to punch someone in the face and the cop telling you " Go check the lawbooks dude".

Syntse · November 2014

Lettigall wrote: »

Lets think about keyboard/mouse software this way:

Is it 3rd party software?- Yes!
Does it give you advantage against other players?- Yes!
Are they authorized by ZeniMax to use?- NO!

One buys gaming mouse with extra buttons:

Does it have 3rd party software? - Yes! (to map buttons)
Does it give you advantage against other players? - Yes! (more buttons, easy access)
Are they authorized by ZeniMax to use? - who knows!

Lettigall · November 2014

Syntse wrote: »

One buys gaming mouse with extra buttons:

Does it have 3rd party software? - Yes! (to map buttons)
Does it give you advantage against other players? - Yes! (more buttons, easy access)
Are they authorized by ZeniMax to use? - who knows!

Fuzz is about software you install with your hardware not built in. And how on earth you get advantage by using extra keys on mouse?

Does it make commands faster? Or does it allows to do extra actions by pressing 1 button? If i have weapon swap on mouse button 4, how does it give me advantage agains player who have default settings or have placed swap button on other key?

Usually games who allow macros promote some company, like Razor, or have built in macro system. But in ZOS there aren't build in macro and they haven't announced that any of companies who make gaming gadgets are they partners.

I have mouse and I can install macro program for it, and yes I tested it! So anyone who tells that those programs don't give you advantage against other players are dirty liars.

In 1 sec it's possible to attack, swap weapon, cast spell from 2nd weapon bar, switch weapon back and attack again. Only lags prevent macro users to dominate this game.

Muizer · November 2014

That section of the ToS targets attempts to read and write to the game other than through a human operated controller. Whether that means that one physical action on the controller should correspond to one command to the game is, literally, doubtful. If you're very literal minded and ignore context then yes, that too would be a breach.