Mouse freelook in First Person

Gidorick · November 2014

I've noticed that when in third person and using mouse freelook my character will continue to run forward while I can look around. This is especially helpful when on the horse. However, when in First Person mode, the mouse freelook will cause my character to move in the direction of the camera, making mouse freelook useless in First Person mode.

Does anyone know if this is a specific design decision? Has anyone mentioned it before?

*EDITS: I changed the terminology of "mouse-look" to "mouse freelook" to refer specifically to the key-binding in ESO.

nerevarine1138 · November 2014

That's kind of a standard feature of first-person view. If you could look in a different direction while running (not strafing), then it wouldn't be first-person view, would it?

poodlemasterb16_ESO · November 2014

I dunno. I can run along doing 360s in first person. I have been doing it since Doom though. I remember the first time I did it. I had just killed a Cyberdemon, the boss, with a shotgun and was very happy and just started doing 360s out of pure joy.

You can run along using your strafe and forward keys at the same time for angled looks, that's easy. With practice 360s will come and your ability to kite will just improve.

nerevarine1138 · November 2014

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

I dunno. I can run along doing 360s in first person. I have been doing it since Doom though. I remember the first time I did it. I had just killed a Cyberdemon, the boss, with a shotgun and was very happy and just started doing 360s out of pure joy.

You can run along using your strafe and forward keys at the same time for angled looks, that's easy. With practice 360s will come and your ability to kite will just improve.

This is different than what the OP is talking about. They don't want to be strafing and turning their head. They want to be moving independently of the mouse-look feature, which is impossible in a first-person view.

Gidorick · November 2014

Strafing is one thing... I'm talking about holding forward... holding down mouse-look and looking around while my direction of movement doesn't change.

Why is it impossible in first person view? is it because there isn't "body awareness"? Where you look down and you see your body.

nerevarine1138 · November 2014

Gidorick wrote: »

Strafing is one thing... I'm talking about holding forward... holding down mouse-look and looking around while my direction of movement doesn't change.

Why is it impossible in first person view? is it because there isn't "body awareness"? Where you look down and you see your body.

It's because first-person view means that the camera tells you which direction your character moves when you place forward. I don't know any other way to describe it. If you haven't seen this in every other first-person game ever, you haven't been paying attention.

Gidorick · November 2014

So you're a "has never-been done so it's impossible" kind of fellow, eh?

Just because other games haven't done this before doesn't mean it's impossible. There is a button that has to be pressed for mouse-look. When that button is pressed they could simply unlock the camera from the movement of the character, just like they do in 3rd person mode.

I have never used mouse-look before because I usually play in first person and, like you said, it's not really a feature of first person games. I usually just press sideways or backwards to move in the direction I wish to move while I look around, just like in every other first person game. Since I have been getting more comfortable with mouse-look in ESO while mounted, I think it would be a really cool (and admittedly unique) feature.

nerevarine1138 · November 2014

Gidorick wrote: »

So you're a "has never-been done so it's impossible" kind of fellow, eh?

just because other games haven't done this before doesn't mean it's impossible. There is a button that has to be pressed for mouse-look. When that button it pressed they could simply unlock the camera from the movement of the character, just like they do in 3rd person mode.

I have never used mouse-look before because I usually play in first person and, like you said, it's not really a feature of first person games. I usually just press sideways or backwards to move in the direction I wish to move while I look around, just like in every other first person game. Since I have been getting more comfortable with mouse-look in ESO while mounted, I think it would be a really cool (and admittedly unique) feature.

It's not a viable "feature". First-person view is defined by the described mechanic. I don't know how whatever-it-is-you're-thinking-of would work, but it would not be a first-person view.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · November 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

I dunno. I can run along doing 360s in first person. I have been doing it since Doom though. I remember the first time I did it. I had just killed a Cyberdemon, the boss, with a shotgun and was very happy and just started doing 360s out of pure joy.

You can run along using your strafe and forward keys at the same time for angled looks, that's easy. With practice 360s will come and your ability to kite will just improve.

This is different than what the OP is talking about. They don't want to be strafing and turning their head. They want to be moving independently of the mouse-look feature, which is impossible in a first-person view.

Oh I know. Just pointing out you can look where you please, while running along.

Gidorick · November 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

So you're a "has never-been done so it's impossible" kind of fellow, eh?

just because other games haven't done this before doesn't mean it's impossible. There is a button that has to be pressed for mouse-look. When that button it pressed they could simply unlock the camera from the movement of the character, just like they do in 3rd person mode.

I have never used mouse-look before because I usually play in first person and, like you said, it's not really a feature of first person games. I usually just press sideways or backwards to move in the direction I wish to move while I look around, just like in every other first person game. Since I have been getting more comfortable with mouse-look in ESO while mounted, I think it would be a really cool (and admittedly unique) feature.

It's not a viable "feature". First-person view is defined by the described mechanic. I don't know how whatever-it-is-you're-thinking-of would work, but it would not be a first-person view.

I guess you could think of what I'm asking is that the mouse-look in First Person work like independent head tracking works in VR.

Right now mouse look in first person is utterly useless... I'm just asking for there to be a function attached to the mouse look button while in first person.

It's not a radical departure from the way games work today. Most modern racing games allow this, where you're driving forward but you can look around at the world without turning your vehicle. It really isn't as unheard of as you seem to think it is.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

Gidorick wrote: »

So you're a "has never-been done so it's impossible" kind of fellow, eh?

Just because other games haven't done this before doesn't mean it's impossible. There is a button that has to be pressed for mouse-look. When that button is pressed they could simply unlock the camera from the movement of the character, just like they do in 3rd person mode.

I have never used mouse-look before because I usually play in first person and, like you said, it's not really a feature of first person games. I usually just press sideways or backwards to move in the direction I wish to move while I look around, just like in every other first person game. Since I have been getting more comfortable with mouse-look in ESO while mounted, I think it would be a really cool (and admittedly unique) feature.

Um, in First Person view you look ahead, when you look in a direction you turn towards that direction.

If you change this then it's not First person view, it's something else, it's not it can't be done, it's the wrong definition being used. If Zos were to muck about with first person view, the furore would probably crash the forums....Twice.

peechwurmnub18_ESO · November 2014

What you're looking for is often called "Free-look". There are plenty of games that feature this, including ESO (to a degree). To those who say this CAN'T be done or hasn't been done, or won't work....um, this has been done before and works perfectly fine in other games. The ARMA series of games is the first to spring to mind which allows you to swivel your head separate from your bodies movement. There was even a mod called immersive first person for Skyrim which had this feature. As someone else mentioned - Racing games often feature something similar.

ESO gives us a free look button to bind, and it works as you'd expect in 3rd person but fails to function in the same way while in first person.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

peechwurmnub18_ESO wrote: »

What you're looking for is often called "Free-look". There are plenty of games that feature this, including ESO (to a degree). To those who say this CAN'T be done or hasn't been done, or won't work....um, this has been done before and works perfectly fine in other games. The ARMA series of games is the first to spring to mind which allows you to swivel your head separate from your bodies movement. There was even a mod called immersive first person for Skyrim which had this feature. As someone else mentioned - Racing games often feature something similar.

ESO gives us a free look button to bind, and it works as you'd expect in 3rd person but fails to function in the same way while in first person.

Thanks for the correct terminology, "Free Look" I'll try to remember that one, as will others here.

Gidorick · November 2014

I'm not asking first person be changed... I would simply like mouse-look in first person actually serve a function. First person would act exactly as it acts now... but when you press mouse-look... you're able to look around with WASD without moving in the direction you're looking.

I know I can't be the only one that gets that movement can be independent from the direction the camera is facing... in first person. It's just that pretty much all the games that do this are vehicular games.

I invite you to try this next time you're in game. Go to 3rd person, move forward, hold mouse look, and move the "view" around.... then go into 1st person and do the same. The mouse-look function works differently in 1st person and 3rd person and they don't have to.

Does the way mouse-look works in first person currently serve a function that I'm not aware of? If so, my suggestion would break that function... I'd understand the resistance to this suggestion then.

Gidorick · November 2014

peechwurmnub18_ESO wrote: »

What you're looking for is often called "Free-look". There are plenty of games that feature this, including ESO (to a degree). To those who say this CAN'T be done or hasn't been done, or won't work....um, this has been done before and works perfectly fine in other games. The ARMA series of games is the first to spring to mind which allows you to swivel your head separate from your bodies movement. There was even a mod called immersive first person for Skyrim which had this feature. As someone else mentioned - Racing games often feature something similar.

ESO gives us a free look button to bind, and it works as you'd expect in 3rd person but fails to function in the same way while in first person.

Ok. so you get what I'm saying. And you are correct I am referring to free-look. I've always called it mouse-look and thought it was commonly known as such. My mistake for making that assumption. Thank you for sheading some light on where the communication was breaking down @peechwurmnub18_ESO‌

I was curious... so I looked it up. The Keybinding in ESO is called Mouse Freelook... so I'll refer to it as such in the future.

so now that the semantics are taken care of... does anyone know if the way Mouse Freelook works in First Person in ESO was a design decision or was the optimization for First Person just overlooked?

Cazic · November 2014

I get you, @Gidorick‌. You want to be able to keep running forward and look around in other directions at the same time, while in first person. Kind of like your neck can turn independently of your body. Seems reasonable.

I have seen this is other games before so I'm sure it's technically possible. Only ZoS would be able to confirm the reason our first person view in ESO doesn't currently work that way, though.

Gidorick · November 2014

Cazic wrote: »

I get you, @Gidorick‌. You want to be able to keep running forward and look around in other directions at the same time, while in first person. Kind of like your neck can turn independently of your body. Seems reasonable.

I have seen this is other games before so I'm sure it's technically possible. Only ZoS would be able to confirm the reason our first person view in ESO doesn't currently work that way, though.

Yes, exactly!

I'm wondering if ZOS doesn't want to allow this because in third person you can look 360+ degrees and in first person that would mean you could turn your neck all the way around. For realism they would have to have to limit the rotation to what... 180 degrees?

This would mean the mouse freelook would have to function differently in the different perspectives and that might be a chore to program. Of course... they function differently NOW... soooo.....

Cazic · November 2014

Gidorick wrote: »

Cazic wrote: »

I get you, @Gidorick‌. You want to be able to keep running forward and look around in other directions at the same time, while in first person. Kind of like your neck can turn independently of your body. Seems reasonable.

I have seen this is other games before so I'm sure it's technically possible. Only ZoS would be able to confirm the reason our first person view in ESO doesn't currently work that way, though.

Yes, exactly!

I'm wondering if ZOS doesn't want to allow this because in third person you can look 360+ degrees and in first person that would mean you could turn your neck all the way around. For realism they would have to have to limit the rotation to what... 180 degrees?

This would mean the mouse freelook would have to function differently in the different perspectives and that might be a chore to program. Of course... they function differently NOW... soooo.....

Yeah, for the sake of realism it would have to be limited to 90 degrees in first person. 180 degrees would mean you can look directly behind yourself while your body was facing the other direction (some horror movie sh*t right there).

Evehn · January 2015

Sorry to gravedig this, but I wanted to share my thoughts on this matter, as this was one of the first thing I noticed after I logged in for the first time and it has bugged me a lot

First, about the degrees of head turn.
Try to walk a few meters, and look behind you while going forward. You can easily see all the way back, because in reality it's a combination of the movements of pupils, neck and torso, plus our eyes FOV. An animation for that isn't strictly required, and I think developers time should be spent elsewhere, but a full look back, or maybe like 150° left and 150° right, would be fine for realism's sake.

Second, why this should be important.
Eso is the only big MMO that allows first person as a feasible way to play, and we have some big changes ahead with the arrival of the Oculus Rift in 2015. With free head movement, oculus support would be really easy, and at the oculus lauch ESO would be the first choice for anyone who'd want to play an mmo with their shiny new VR gadget.

Third, immersion.
Playing in first person gives a lot more immersion, but you loose a lot in terms of spatial awarness, you can't see mobs respawning behind you, and you can't look for items left or right whild walking forward toward a certain destination. Being able to turn your head while moving in a fixed direction could work to level the field between 1st and 3rd person, and it would work to increase player immersion in the game.

If anyone wanna see this implemented in other games, Arma had it implemented for a long, and pairing it with a head traking device has been almost mandatory for any competitive player.

Gidorick · January 2015

Don't apologize for practicing Necromancy on this thread, it's an important issue that really needs a solution.

As for the degree... I wasn't considering looking forward to be the 0 degree point. I was considering that if you turn your head all the way to the left you can look completely to your right and your head would rotate about 180 degrees. But you're right that the turn is more like 150 degrees... thanks for pointing that out.

Make sure you submit this thought using /feeback in-game. Those submissions go more directly to developers.

Gidorick · January 2015

I found a product called TrackIR5 that I REALLY want to use for ESO.... but since I we don't have properly functioning Mouse Freelook I think asking for TrackIR support would be putting the cart before the horse....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AO0F5sLdVM

Gidorick · January 2015

In case anyone was wondering. This has NOT been fixed in 1.6 on the PTS.

Gidorick · February 2015

I was hoping the little update they had to the PTS would include this but it was not.

NewBlacksmurf · February 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

That's kind of a standard feature of first-person view. If you could look in a different direction while running (not strafing), then it wouldn't be first-person view, would it?

I have to disagree but the design and mechanics limit FPS to this.
I have no issue turning my head while walking straight but in video games, this has not existed.

I'm not a programmer so no explanation but logically, this is odd behavior outside of a video game thought process.

Roechacca · February 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

I found a product called TrackIR5 that I REALLY want to use for ESO.... but since I we don't have properly functioning Mouse Freelook I think asking for TrackIR support would be putting the cart before the horse....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AO0F5sLdVM

Nice !

Gidorick · March 2015

FYI... this wasn't fixed on the LIVE server with update 1.6.

This is such a small thing, the fact that they haven't fixed it baffles me. Is it a design choice? If it is, it's a bad one.

nerevarine1138 · March 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

FYI... this wasn't fixed on the LIVE server with update 1.6.

This is such a small thing, the fact that they haven't fixed it baffles me. Is it a design choice? If it is, it's a bad one.

This isn't something that needs fixing or that the developers have indicated they want to change. It's a design choice in almost every first-person game ever made.

Gidorick · March 2015

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

FYI... this wasn't fixed on the LIVE server with update 1.6.

This is such a small thing, the fact that they haven't fixed it baffles me. Is it a design choice? If it is, it's a bad one.

This isn't something that needs fixing or that the developers have indicated they want to change. It's a design choice in almost every first-person game ever made.

They have never acknowledged that it is a deliberate design decision either. And it's not unheard of in first person games. We've discussed this in this thread already.

Some of the games that have this feature:

Operation Flashpoint
ARMA games
MechWarrior games
Battlefield Games
H1Z1

So the argument isn't "this is how first person games work" it's whether or not this is a deliberate design choice made by @Zos.

I think having the freelook mechanic function differently in First Person than it does in Third Person actually makes First Person less functional. If ZOS comes out and states that the mouse-freelook is functioning as intended in first person with an explanation as to why the mechanics are the way they are, I'll drop it. But otherwise, to me, First Person Mouse Freelook seems to be a broken mechanic.

Maybe this is a question for @ZOS_NickKonkle or someone on his team. He's the lead gameplay designer. He or his team would be the people that would know.

Evehn · April 2015

Actually, I haven't seen a single first person game that handles it like the middle mouse does, it works perfectly in 3rd person, but in 1st person I just can't find any logic or usefulness to it, so I just bind it to something else.

In an Elder Scrolls game it's quite a big deal, would be nice to have some kind of official response to this.

Gidorick · February 2016

Evehn wrote: »

Actually, I haven't seen a single first person game that handles it like the middle mouse does, it works perfectly in 3rd person, but in 1st person I just can't find any logic or usefulness to it, so I just bind it to something else.

In an Elder Scrolls game it's quite a big deal, would be nice to have some kind of official response to this.

I agree it's a big deal... but ZOS has never responded to any of these threads regarding this issue.