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Can we look at making Vamps more fun?
Nihili
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Not looking at making them OP again - just possibly tweak a couple skills so the skill line is a little more fun. I'll be the first to admit that feeding on people in PvP is the funniest thing ever, but the initial reason why I picked up vampirism was for the "Elusive Mist". I had planned to use it instead of getting a horse, which I thought was pretty clever and I knew it was viable at the initial stages of vampirism (version 1.1 and 1.2), but despite that not working out now (something I'm not really disappointed about, I was going to exploit it and I don't mind if they fix it) it DOES feel like Elusive mist is a useless skill for running away, as it's speed is the equivalent of sprinting. You're not getting away from anyone with it.
Sometime with like update 1.3, Vamps received a blanket nerf. I'm one of those who believed this was necessary - vamps were OP. But elusive mist was at the very least a harmless skill and the very most a convenient if not fun skill to have. The nerf put a stop to that. My question is: can't we buff the movement speed increase of it?
As ever, my take on why this is a necessary move is that this game has gap-closers in abundance: Invasion, Ambush, Stampede, Silver Leash, Take Flight, etc. But it lacks "space-givers": ...Shadow Cloak, Bolt Escape, MAYBE Magnum Shot if you push it. Why not add elusive mist? It can only add to the gameplay.
Sometime with like update 1.3, Vamps received a blanket nerf. I'm one of those who believed this was necessary - vamps were OP. But elusive mist was at the very least a harmless skill and the very most a convenient if not fun skill to have. The nerf put a stop to that. My question is: can't we buff the movement speed increase of it?
As ever, my take on why this is a necessary move is that this game has gap-closers in abundance: Invasion, Ambush, Stampede, Silver Leash, Take Flight, etc. But it lacks "space-givers": ...Shadow Cloak, Bolt Escape, MAYBE Magnum Shot if you push it. Why not add elusive mist? It can only add to the gameplay.
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JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭It would add to the gameplay as much as BE, and what BE adds is "do not fight sorc who is able to press BE at least twice in a row". Unless you happen to be sorc too.0 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Elusive mist?? that ability seems useless!:/ all i have to do when someone uses it is follow them while continuesly pressing my impale button. they will eventually run out of magic, and i still get my kill.
i feel bad for you:(1 -
Auber✭✭IMO, what vampires need is an actual reason to feed. Make the fire weakness scale with your vampirism stage. Then it would be an actual choice. Also make each stage last longer.3 -
Nihili✭✭✭It would add to the gameplay as much as BE, and what BE adds is "do not fight sorc who is able to press BE at least twice in a row". Unless you happen to be sorc too.
@JamilaRaj Well personally I've never had all that much trouble with BE. I consider it 'part of the game' and so if someone uses it to get away - well I don't cry over spilt milk. I count it as a win (because if he hadn't used it I would've won) and move along.
On a more argumentative level: BE's purpose is escaping (Bolt escape). So far BE fulfills its purpose - it is an effective escaping tool. My issue with Elusive mist is that it has the same purpose yet does not fulfill it: have you seen the people who use Elusive mist in Cyrodill to try get away? Here:Elusive mist?? that ability seems useless!:/ all i have to do when someone uses it is follow them while continuesly pressing my impale button. they will eventually run out of magic, and i still get my kill.
i feel bad for you:(
The developers of this game obviously attended for this skill to be used to try an elude/escape your enemies, yet it SUCKS at doing that. So in turn: Can they buff the movement speed increase3 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭It would add to the gameplay as much as BE, and what BE adds is "do not fight sorc who is able to press BE at least twice in a row". Unless you happen to be sorc too.
@JamilaRaj Well personally I've never had all that much trouble with BE. I consider it 'part of the game' and so if someone uses it to get away - well I don't cry over spilt milk. I count it as a win (because if he hadn't used it I would've won) and move along.
It's not getting away what am I concerned about, but getting away and back again, resetting combat and effectively cherry pick wins and discard loses, at least when facing other classes.
And there are actually people abusing this ad nauseam, even though they would typically babble about situational awareness instead of resetting combat.0 -
Nihili✭✭✭It would add to the gameplay as much as BE, and what BE adds is "do not fight sorc who is able to press BE at least twice in a row". Unless you happen to be sorc too.
@JamilaRaj Well personally I've never had all that much trouble with BE. I consider it 'part of the game' and so if someone uses it to get away - well I don't cry over spilt milk. I count it as a win (because if he hadn't used it I would've won) and move along.
It's not getting away what am I concerned about, but getting away and back again, resetting combat and effectively cherry pick wins and discard loses, at least when facing other classes.
And there are actually people abusing this ad nauseam, even though they would typically babble about situational awareness instead of resetting combat.
As I said: that was my personal take on it. If you're looking for my objective response you should look to the paragraph after the one you quoted, which goes along the lines of "it seems to be intentional, it seems to fulfill its purpose efficiently, and so it seems that BE is working correctly".
Again - personally: I agree that they may be cherry picking their wins, but from a different view I have seen these guys lose in 1v1s even after escaping. It's not a matter of "a skill that allows you to escape makes you indestructible". As you say, if you engage someone in a 1v1 and they BE away and then return, "resetting combat", well my question is if you won once against the guy why not twice? If he runs away again and comes back a third time and loses again, well does it even matter if the 4th time he comes back to you, he kills you? You demonstrated your superiority once, twice, heck three times. Who cares about the craven sod who thinks he's good.
Lastly: we are going of on a tangent. I am not here to discuss BE, I am here to discuss Elusive mist. The two share similarities and parallels, but it would be a mistake to say we shouldn't buff Elusive mist because BE is game-breaking. Elusive mist can be rooted, and if you are snared before going into elusive mist you will be snared while moving. There is a fundamental difference between the two skills and that is that BE teleports the player, and Elusive mist only increases their movement speed. Becausee it only effects the players movement speed you can still stop the player from escaping through roots and snares.
That is why it'll be okay to buff elusive mist: it is a skill that has a weakness, and so you can exploit the weakness even if it were buffed1 -
chipputer✭✭✭IMO, what vampires need is an actual reason to feed. Make the fire weakness scale with your vampirism stage. Then it would be an actual choice. Also make each stage last longer.
Still don't know why they didn't make it work like this in the first place. As it stands, if you're running any PvE magicka heavy build, you probably aren't suffering much from the health regen loss (especially with how easy it is to just run a resto-off-hand and keep rapid regen up), and in almost all other cases you have allies to help you (and if you don't you're probably using something else to help yourself survive better, regardless).
As of right now, it's much more beneficial to hit stage 4 and let the reduced resource costs on vamp abilities allow you to fire off bats more often to make up for the reduced health regen.
MEANWHILE, at stage 1: I look more human and have to gain a relatively large amount more ultimate to use bats. Thumbs... up?
Seriously, stuff like, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50% fire vulnerability for each stage, in order, maybe make stage 1 vamps undetectable by Evil Hunter... stuff like that needs to be in the game to throw vamps a bit of a bone. I understand how the vamp mechanics combined with certain class abilities was completely overpowering (and still can be), but my lightly RP'd "front-line-healer-turned-while-doing-his-job" is incredibly frustrating to play in multiple situations and I can see almost no reason for the continuing trend of adding frustrations onto it.0 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭It would add to the gameplay as much as BE, and what BE adds is "do not fight sorc who is able to press BE at least twice in a row". Unless you happen to be sorc too.
@JamilaRaj Well personally I've never had all that much trouble with BE. I consider it 'part of the game' and so if someone uses it to get away - well I don't cry over spilt milk. I count it as a win (because if he hadn't used it I would've won) and move along.
It's not getting away what am I concerned about, but getting away and back again, resetting combat and effectively cherry pick wins and discard loses, at least when facing other classes.
And there are actually people abusing this ad nauseam, even though they would typically babble about situational awareness instead of resetting combat.
As I said: that was my personal take on it. If you're looking for my objective response you should look to the paragraph after the one you quoted, which goes along the lines of "it seems to be intentional, it seems to fulfill its purpose efficiently, and so it seems that BE is working correctly".
As for that paragraph...I have seen people using EM in Cyrodiil, and while it's not a free ticket out of combat, for some them it worked remarkably well. I won't comment on Impale pro tips.Again - personally: I agree that they may be cherry picking their wins, but from a different view I have seen these guys lose in 1v1s even after escaping. It's not a matter of "a skill that allows you to escape makes you indestructible". As you say, if you engage someone in a 1v1 and they BE away and then return, "resetting combat", well my question is if you won once against the guy why not twice? If he runs away again and comes back a third time and loses again, well does it even matter if the 4th time he comes back to you, he kills you? You demonstrated your superiority once, twice, heck three times. Who cares about the craven sod who thinks he's good.
There are two reasons. First is that, until they reintroduce FCs, death matters and dead people have somewhat hard time achieving objectives in Cyrodiil. The other is I do not consider person with 4 imaginary kills to one real death superior. By metric of death, that person is loser.Lastly: we are going of on a tangent. I am not here to discuss BE, I am here to discuss Elusive mist. The two share similarities and parallels, but it would be a mistake to say we shouldn't buff Elusive mist because BE is game-breaking. Elusive mist can be rooted, and if you are snared before going into elusive mist you will be snared while moving. There is a fundamental difference between the two skills and that is that BE teleports the player, and Elusive mist only increases their movement speed. Becausee it only effects the players movement speed you can still stop the player from escaping through roots and snares.
You can also throw roots and snare on pursuer.
Anyway, I mentioned BE as an example of working escape skill (unless fighting another sorc) and pointless combat that comes from it.0 -
phreatophile✭✭✭✭✭
✭The implementation of Vampires in this game is severly lacking.
They need to be not just more fun but a lot more interesting.
Appearance, advantages, and disadvantages should scale based on stage and stages ought to last far longer. The health regen debuff should switch to a buff when in the dark.
The nerfs that we've had so far (are we up to 4 nerfs yet or is it 5?) were all misguided in that the problem: constant batswarm spam, would have been better dealt with by addressing broken Ultimate gain synergies.
Regarding the stages, If I could design it:
Stage 1 lasts 2 hours. Appearance is fully mortal(think Verandis Ravenwatch when you first meet him, he had a tan and normal eyes, or Heloise Menoit who is unrecognizable as a vampire when you meet her). Fire debuff 25%. All regens normal.
Stage 2 lasts 3 hours. Appearance deteriorates. Fire debuff 35%. All regens buff/debuff by 20% in darkness/daylight.
Stage 3 lasts 4 hours. Appearance further deteriorates. Fire debuff 45%. All regens buff/debuff by 30% in darkness/daylight. 'Straightlaced' questgivers/merchants shun you.
Stage 4 lasts. Appearance is fully undead. Fire debuff 55%. All regens buff/debuff by 40% in darkness / daylight. Everybody who isn't undead themselves, won't trade with you. Fighter's Guild and Guards attack you on sight.
Remove cost reduction of vampire abilities entirely or at least from Swarm Ult.
The whole thing takes 9 hours (1.5 ingame days) which makes sense for feeding.
This would make vampires far mor interesting to play.
You want to look mortal and play mortal, eat somebody.
A vampire wouldn't be much of a threat in daylight, but a terror in the dark.
The effect that cost reduction had is better handled with higher regens since these are soft/hard capped and cost reduction is not. (harder to abuse)
There are real problems that come with stage 4, and real advantages in certain circumstances.Edited by phreatophile on November 18, 2014 7:19PM2 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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This is a damn near perfect balance. Well done.phreatophile wrote: »The implementation of Vampires in this game is severly lacking.
They need to be not just more fun but a lot more interesting.
Appearance, advantages, and disadvantages should scale based on stage and stages ought to last far longer. The health regen debuff should switch to a buff when in the dark.
The nerfs that we've had so far (are we up to 4 nerfs yet or is it 5?) were all misguided in that the problem: constant batswarm spam, would have been better dealt with by addressing broken Ultimate gain synergies.
Regarding the stages, If I could design it:
Stage 1 lasts 2 hours. Appearance is fully mortal(think Verandis Ravenwatch when you first meet him, he had a tan and normal eyes, or Heloise Menoit who is unrecognizable as a vampire when you meet her). Fire debuff 25%. All regens normal.
Stage 2 lasts 3 hours. Appearance deteriorates. Fire debuff 35%. All regens buff/debuff by 20% in darkness/daylight.
Stage 3 lasts 4 hours. Appearance further deteriorates. Fire debuff 45%. All regens buff/debuff by 30% in darkness/daylight. 'Straightlaced' questgivers/merchants shun you.
Stage 4 lasts. Appearance is fully undead. Fire debuff 55%. All regens buff/debuff by 40% in darkness / daylight. Everybody who isn't undead themselves, won't trade with you. Fighter's Guild and Guards attack you on sight.
Remove cost reduction of vampire abilities entirely or at least from Swarm Ult.
The whole thing takes 9 hours (1.5 ingame days) which makes sense for feeding.
This would make vampires far mor interesting to play.
You want to look mortal and play mortal, eat somebody.
A vampire wouldn't be much of a threat in daylight, but a terror in the dark.
The effect that cost reduction had is better handled with higher regens since these are soft/hard capped and cost reduction is not. (harder to abuse)
There are real problems that come with stage 4, and real advantages in certain circumstances.
:trollin:0
