Remember when PvP actually ran at 60 FPS?

Teargrants · November 2014

So I stumbled across this beta vid today, and remembered why I got this game. Just look at it! So many people on screen and still 60 FPS! Perfectly smooth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYEvZis59KA
Calling the current Cyrodiil beta is an insult to what the actual beta was.

lostavalon · November 2014

come on zos bring pvp back like this!!!

rtc07 · November 2014

I didn't play Beta but I am guessing no one was able to unlock Impulse... might have something to do with it. Or hadn't figured out the super effective other AEO stuff that also happens to cripple the servers. Could be wrong - not sure how high you were able to level.

SienneYviete · November 2014

Such fond memories WTF happened Zos?

KBKB · November 2014

Classic Zenimax. The more they touch things the more they ruined.

Morvul · November 2014

yep...

the most severe issues started back with the "lightning enhancement patch" - though I'm not 100% sure if the problems are truly related to the graphics enhancement.
Because: when I turn everything off, set everything to minimum settings, and even trouble myself to go to the usersettings.txt and tune everything for high performance there - I still only get 16 fps in battles such as those shown in the OPs beta video.

And while I never played much beta-PvP, right after release, I still would have comfortable 45-55 fps in such battles... with every setting on freaking ultimate!

Rylana · November 2014

I agree Teargrants. The first month or so of live was the best performance experience of the game. Ever since 1.2, the game has steadily declined in performance week after week.

Nothing in my system specs has changed all year, yet my FPS today under optimal conditions is barely half of what it was in heavy load 6 months ago.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · November 2014

Same experience here.
I was shocked in beta at how smooth pvp was and it helped convincing me to get the game.

I think that the issue now is mostly due to the stacking tactics being used due to the target cap and all the aoe spaming it causes.

Now that we have the fc removed, it's time to tackle this issue.

Muizer · November 2014

I would not be surprised if this was caused by shift in play style towards abilities that reduce fps. I mean, in this vid I can recognise individual players using melee abilities, whereas larger battles these days it's like complete inferno.

Zubba · November 2014

I didnt play during beta. But I see no grass foilage or detail in that video.

krim · November 2014

rtc07 wrote: »

I didn't play Beta but I am guessing no one was able to unlock Impulse... might have something to do with it. Or hadn't figured out the super effective other AEO stuff that also happens to cripple the servers. Could be wrong - not sure how high you were able to level.

bingo

Cody · November 2014

I remember..... it was glorious.

no lag, no crashing, no scrollbacks, just plain ole PvP.

ah....good times.

Orchish · November 2014

I play PvP every day, and i honestly think it was better back in Beta. I have noting but issues with current PvP. Sounds stop working, graphics stop displaying, crashes, terrible lag spikes and shockingly bad performance during large battles. I thought games were meant to improve after patches?

Don't get me wrong, we get new content and features which is great, but when it comes to PvP. It has not been improving for a long time now.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · November 2014

Theres also other graphical elements missing in that beta video, like grass lol. but I agree it would be nice for it to run smooth like that. Cant even lower the graphics down enough to get that kind of FPS in cyrodil.

Tankqull · November 2014

SienneYviete wrote: »

Such fond memories WTF happened Zos?

they fixed the uncapped AOEs...

Durham · November 2014

There was not AOE stacking groups spamming like there are today..
.As soon as someone figured this out this simple tactic ....its history
They definately want to fix it however this could have drastic effects in PVE...

michaelb14a_ESO2 · November 2014

I remember this. Almost forgot tbh, it was hands down some of the best PVP I had ever experienced. The degradation has been so slow and constant, times like this almost slipped my memory.

Bring it back ZOS!

Kypho · November 2014

Durham wrote: »

There was not AOE stacking groups spamming like there are today..
.As soon as someone figured this out this simple tactic ....its history
They definately want to fix it however this could have drastic effects in PVE...

Those r......d zos ruined stealth dmg in PvP only, so they could fix aoe crap too. without effecting PvE

RinaldoGandolphi · November 2014

if the server can't support the AOEs, then ZOS should remove the AOE's from PVP until they fix the problem....I would rather have a playable game that maintains a solid framerate without lag in lieu of AOE attacks.

its the right thing to do. I personally think battles would be much more fun without AOE's as it would pit more player skill against another, and the scrubs who spam AOE impulse would no longer have the crutch to stand on and would most likely get rolled on a regular basis without it.

Agrippa_Invisus · November 2014

The latency and lag that have been infesting Thornblade NA the last few days (especially since 1.5) have been awful.

The game is getting to be completely unplayable. Every single patch makes this game less capable of being run, even on high end machines.

Rubber banding. Teleporting. Skill lag. Message lag. Interaction with flag lag. Siege bugging and siege lag. The entire server of Cyrodiil crashing and resetting scrolls.

It's hard to justify to my guild why they should continue to play.

This is un-effing-acceptable.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · November 2014

Aoes themselves aren't really the issue, but the target cap is.
When it gets removed, people won't stack so there won't be 6 guaranteed targets so there won't be as much aoe spam than now.

It has been discussed a lot already, in every possible outlets, this should have been fixed months ago.

Rylana · November 2014

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Aoes themselves aren't really the issue, but the target cap is.
When it gets removed, people won't stack so there won't be 6 guaranteed targets so there won't be as much aoe spam than now.

It has been discussed a lot already, in every possible outlets, this should have been fixed months ago.

Oh people will still stack, to lethal effect.

In fact removing the cap would only make those blobs stronger. Wait, have we done this before? I am sure we have had this argument before.

Teargrants · November 2014

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

It's hard to justify to my guild why they should continue to play.

Just tell them it's for the glory of Dee Tick, I'll back you up.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO · November 2014

Rylana wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Aoes themselves aren't really the issue, but the target cap is.
When it gets removed, people won't stack so there won't be 6 guaranteed targets so there won't be as much aoe spam than now.

It has been discussed a lot already, in every possible outlets, this should have been fixed months ago.

Oh people will still stack, to lethal effect.

In fact removing the cap would only make those blobs stronger. Wait, have we done this before? I am sure we have had this argument before.

Yes it's possible we've discussed this before. Your name seems familiar.

Being the only kind of group that can be easily wiped in one focus fire, while having no offensive advantages compared to spread out groups of similar sizes, does not make stacking stronger.

If to you it does, I hope that you lead non-dc groups.

Teargrants · November 2014

Claiming no aoe cap makes blobs stronger is just facile reasoning and literally fail math. Take 12v24 for example and assume they try stacking.

If everyone uses a 100 dmg aoe every second that hits the whole enemy group, then we end up with this:
With aoe cap:
-12 man does 7200 dps to 24 man
-24 man does 14400 dps to 12 man
Without aoe cap:
-12 man does 28800 dps to 24 man
-24 man does 28800 dps to 12 man

This leads to two interesting conclusions:
-Either way both blobs take much more damage without the cap, meaning blobs will be more vulnerable to spread out groups.
-The gap between group on group damage is smaller without aoe caps. Before the 24 man was doing twice the dps to the 12 man than the 12 man was doing to them, meaning each player in the 12 man was taking 4x the damage compared to each player in the 24 man. Whereas now each player in the 12 man is taking 2x the damage of each player in the 24 man. This means there's more room for group vs group to be about tactics than just getting the bigger blob and steam rolling all the smaller groups.

It's really that simple.

Rylana · November 2014

Teargrants wrote: »

Claiming no aoe cap makes blobs stronger is just facile reasoning and literally fail math. Take 12v24 for example and assume they try stacking.

If everyone uses a 100 dmg aoe every second that hits the whole enemy group, then we end up with this:
With aoe cap:
-12 man does 7200 dps to 24 man
-24 man does 14400 dps to 12 man
Without aoe cap:
-12 man does 28800 dps to 24 man
-24 man does 28800 dps to 12 man

This leads to two interesting conclusions:
-Either way both blobs take much more damage without the cap, meaning blobs will be more vulnerable to spread out groups.
-The gap between group on group damage is smaller without aoe caps. Before the 24 man was doing twice the dps to the 12 man than the 12 man was doing to them, meaning each player in the 12 man was taking 4x the damage compared to each player in the 24 man. Whereas now each player in the 12 man is taking 2x the damage of each player in the 24 man. This means there's more room for group vs group to be about tactics than just getting the bigger blob and steam rolling all the smaller groups.

It's really that simple.

Flawed single dimensional math.

Assuming both groups have the same ratio of healers (ie 12 group has 2, 24 group has 4, etc) you then see how the 12 man is again at a disadvantage.

Sure youre doing more damage, to a group that has twice as much healing power as you do. If you equalize damage such as described in quoted post 28800/28800, it becomes not a question of who has the bigger numbers, but who has the most healers.

I can tell you from experience these lagbomb groups run so thick in healers youre never going to dent them, no matter if caps get removed or not. Your bomb squad will simply last a tiny bit longer as the OPFOR power heals through a bit more damage and sorta stands there waiting for your group to wear down first because your healers are having to work twice as hard for half the guys.

Its actually a running joke between me and some of my guys whether or not EP even has sorcs or nightblades anymore. Every group we run into is comprised of 2 parts dk fire spammers, 1 part templar healer/blazing spammer.

Eucken · November 2014

Cap the Heal AOE don't cap the dmg AOE?

Teargrants · November 2014

@Rylana My point was never that the small group would suddenly bomb the big group to death. I was responding to your claim that no aoe cap would make the blob stronger. No aoe cap actually makes it more vulnerable because ZOS's plan is to uncap damage but keep healing capped. If those 12 men aren't stacking they are going to be taking the same amount of damage from the blob as they are now - ie. they will still get rolled as usually happens currently. HOWEVER, they will be doing 4x as much damage to the 24 man, and since heals remain capped, the blob healers will have to work 4x as hard.

Given, this won't necessarily change things much for just 12 man bombing them, but against the horde of pugs spread out throwing aoe at the blob, it means that the blob will be getting hit harder and have to change tactics. Either they spread out to mitigate damage (which should help reduce lag as well), or they run a bunch more heals (which will decrease their dps, and thus effectiveness). Both of these are an improvement over the current state.

CPT_CAPSLOCK · November 2014

Morvul wrote: »

yep...

the most severe issues started back with the "lightning enhancement patch" - though I'm not 100% sure if the problems are truly related to the graphics enhancement.
Because: when I turn everything off, set everything to minimum settings, and even trouble myself to go to the usersettings.txt and tune everything for high performance there - I still only get 16 fps in battles such as those shown in the OPs beta video.

And while I never played much beta-PvP, right after release, I still would have comfortable 45-55 fps in such battles... with every setting on freaking ultimate!

with that 1.23 patch they also brought us the fps drop bug and this bug is not complete fixed until now. I lost a huge number of fps in Cyrodiil compared to pre 1.23 after their "fix".
The fps bug had nothing to do with the settings, but i am sure they are not looking into this issue anymore, its fixed for them

Sanct16 · November 2014

This video looks so great... I actually forgot how smooth the game used to be at launch.

Asgari · November 2014

Beta was awesome!