Blocking in ESO

GrimMauKin · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

The thing is, it's not really about realism so much as balancing the game. ESO has some 'odd' combat mechanics that allow a player to be hit by a MOB that's well out of range (I've been bitten by a tiger that's more that a body's length away and hit by a troll that looked to be about 20 feet away and had his back to me). As I understand it this mechanic is there to avoid players kiting MOBs but, as a result, realism goes right out of the window (to give another example I'm pretty sure that you can be hit by hand to hand blows from larger MOBs that are out of range of a Draining Shot from a bow). I find it utterly frustrating to roll clearly out of range only to get hit anyway - MOBs that are behind you and 'realistically' out of range can also hit you and a 360 degree block does go some way to mitigating that.

The 360 degree blocking feels odd and 'wrong' (as does bashing/interrupting a MOB that's 20 feet away when my weapons only move about 6 inches) but I guess that it does kind of fit in with the overall oddness of ESO's combat; is it wrong to unrealistically block on opponent that shouldn't actually be able to hit you in the first place?

In my experience positioning and movement is currently fairly irrelevant in ESO with its current combat mechanics as most MOBs can hit you wherever you are (unless you have enough stamina to dodge continually); if you get too good and avoidance another anti-kiting mechanic tends to come into play and the MOBs tends to reset.

I think that the anti-kiting approach in ESO is silly and that that game ought to be bright enough to have a realistic combat system but not reward players who endlessly kite/farm MOBs. Personally I'd love a more realistic combat system but I think that the whole system could do with a revamp, rather than just blocking.

All the above is from a solely PVE point of view as I've not really done any PVP.

Yusuf · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

Possibly all the players who voted 180° are bow-gankers anyway, stop trying to mold the game the way it only suits you.

khele23eb17_ESO · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

There are so many things about combat in video games that are unrealistic, why narrow in on this one, if only to nerf tanks in general. If heavy armor actually were worth a damn maybe this might possibly be ok, however heavy armor is not remotely worthwhile. Worse still there is the issue that I agree with AlexDougherty with regard to the aoe/cone 'slushiness' of a lot of powers. Another issue is that there is no player collision either. While I would love an mmo to come up with a way to make the Phalanx formation actually useful via collision and shield walls, I don't think its ever going to happen.

Its not something impossible and has in fact been done already. Warhammer Online. There were a few really neat things in that game. For example collision detection and tanking actually being useful in pvp.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Considering the game doesn't know exactly where you are, which we know because we get damage even when we move out of red circles/cone/paths, I can't support any reduction in the range they defend.

Get the game to track us first, before you start asking for directional blocking. Otherwise the game will just start killing us no matter how we block.

Edit~ I will keep making this comment, no matter how many new polls come up. If they make blocking directional before they start tracking us properly, the game WILL become unplayable.

If the game doesnt track you... how come you get discovered when you try to sneak up on someone from the front?

Ok, mis-spoke slightly, the game does track us, but doesn't track us accurately. Apart from us getting damaged when we shouldn't (and vice-versa), how many times have you moved towards a place, only for the game to decide you are actually somewhere else (happened to me several times last week).

AlexDougherty · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

GreyBrow wrote: »

Please restrict your stupid PvP Polls where they belong --> In the PvP Forum.

That being said... 360 blocking is bad for PvP, good for PvE

Yeah I can agree with that.

khele23eb17_ESO · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

AlexDougherty wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Considering the game doesn't know exactly where you are, which we know because we get damage even when we move out of red circles/cone/paths, I can't support any reduction in the range they defend.

Get the game to track us first, before you start asking for directional blocking. Otherwise the game will just start killing us no matter how we block.

Edit~ I will keep making this comment, no matter how many new polls come up. If they make blocking directional before they start tracking us properly, the game WILL become unplayable.

If the game doesnt track you... how come you get discovered when you try to sneak up on someone from the front?

Ok, mis-spoke slightly, the game does track us, but doesn't track us accurately. Apart from us getting damaged when we shouldn't (and vice-versa), how many times have you moved towards a place, only for the game to decide you are actually somewhere else (happened to me several times last week).

Thats rubberbanding - it happens when your client is out of sync with the server due to network lag/server hiccup and not due to tracking of your character being inherently innacurate. Also, a few times in a week ? Wow, that like... unplayable XD

SteveCampsOut · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

Ironfyre wrote: »

Attacking is active offense.
It is, thankfully, directional - meaning you have to aim at your opponent while executing attacks. This adds to combat mechanics in a way that benefit player movement, positioning and reaction.

AOE isn't!

Ironfyre wrote: »

Blocking is active defense.
Right now, it is omnidirectional, and does not need any other player interaction other than pressing (and keeping pressed) one button. No real awareness needed, you mitigate a large percentage of damage basically for free

No it isn't. It uses Stamina! You run out of stamina, you're not blocking anything!

As a Destro Staff using Sorcerer, my go to attack in PVE is the AOE with Block destruction of multiple mobs all bunched up in a circle around me. Make blocking directional while using AOE with bunched up mobs and I'm toast!

If you really want 360 Blocking removed then add a Shield Passive to Destruction Staff that is 360 degrees for use with the AOE Attack.

Ironfyre · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Ironfyre wrote: »

Attacking is active offense.
It is, thankfully, directional - meaning you have to aim at your opponent while executing attacks. This adds to combat mechanics in a way that benefit player movement, positioning and reaction.

AOE isn't!

Ironfyre wrote: »

Blocking is active defense.
Right now, it is omnidirectional, and does not need any other player interaction other than pressing (and keeping pressed) one button. No real awareness needed, you mitigate a large percentage of damage basically for free

No it isn't. It uses Stamina! You run out of stamina, you're not blocking anything!

Ironfyre wrote: »

... No real awareness needed, you mitigate a large percentage of damage basically for free (I'm not talking about resources, I do hope that is clear).

Heishi · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

The problem with directional blocking in this game is that as far as first person, you char doesn't look the way you face, it looks the way you move. It the model's view direction and camera were attached to mouse movement you could use directional because you could easily face in other direction.

I've cast spells like elemental wall in the wrong direction because of this many time. I actually ended up giving up first person, so I don't know if this is still an issue. In third person it's easier to make sure you're facing the right way.

Panda244 · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

I understand the whole reason of 360 degree block but it's also very... Eh. I do think there should be a gap, not a large one, but a gap behind the shield user that starts off at like... 180 degrees, and passives in the 1h1s tree make it smaller, something like 280-300, I mean given the main shield using class, a Dragonknight you'd think they'd have fast reflexes to swing the shield around real quick to block, so you can still block 5-6 people, but it encourages people to not get swarmed on purpose. $:\$

SteveCampsOut · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

Ironfyre wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Ironfyre wrote: »

Attacking is active offense.
It is, thankfully, directional - meaning you have to aim at your opponent while executing attacks. This adds to combat mechanics in a way that benefit player movement, positioning and reaction.

AOE isn't!

Ironfyre wrote: »

Blocking is active defense.
Right now, it is omnidirectional, and does not need any other player interaction other than pressing (and keeping pressed) one button. No real awareness needed, you mitigate a large percentage of damage basically for free

No it isn't. It uses Stamina! You run out of stamina, you're not blocking anything!

Ironfyre wrote: »

... No real awareness needed, you mitigate a large percentage of damage basically for free (I'm not talking about resources, I do hope that is clear).

Yeah I specifically ignored that part SPECIFICALLY because it makes no sense to call something that uses resources "Free". Sorry Dudley! You can't have your free and eat it too!

deepseamk20b14_ESO · November 2014

GreyBrow wrote: »

Please restrict your stupid PvP Polls where they belong --> In the PvP Forum.

That being said... 360 blocking is bad for PvP, good for PvE

this isn't a PvP poll lol. It's blocking in general. I also agree with your last statement.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Considering the game doesn't know exactly where you are, which we know because we get damage even when we move out of red circles/cone/paths, I can't support any reduction in the range they defend.

Get the game to track us first, before you start asking for directional blocking. Otherwise the game will just start killing us no matter how we block.

Edit~ I will keep making this comment, no matter how many new polls come up. If they make blocking directional before they start tracking us properly, the game WILL become unplayable.

If the game doesnt track you... how come you get discovered when you try to sneak up on someone from the front?

Ok, mis-spoke slightly, the game does track us, but doesn't track us accurately. Apart from us getting damaged when we shouldn't (and vice-versa), how many times have you moved towards a place, only for the game to decide you are actually somewhere else (happened to me several times last week).

Thats rubberbanding - it happens when your client is out of sync with the server due to network lag/server hiccup and not due to tracking of your character being inherently innacurate. Also, a few times in a week ? Wow, that like... unplayable XD

I wouldn't say unplayable, just really annoying. It happened after the patch, before that it was just the fact I dodge out of attack areas (the red on the ground) but still got damage.

I have played MMO with directional blocking, and was fine with it, but it had fewer issues than this game. I like this game, but it does have issues.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

The point would be that the game is centered around aiming, not tab targeting facing whatever direction you want and spamming a skill. The positional advantage is pretty clear actually. Think about the dude who just walks into a group of people holding block and spamming AoE? Should that guy really be able to block 10 people when 9 of them are behind him? That's not skill, it's broken game mechanics. I don't do it as good as a DK, but even as an NB I can just walk in sap essence, and hold block. That's kind of dumb. It would be much cooler to have to actually move around more and face different directions when seeing what enemy skills are incoming. or back into a wall, sure you'd block the people in front of you but you would be stuck. It creates more strategy and more complex/skilled game play.

Well that might work against some non grouped swarm but to a group of good players people who charge in alone with no allies around are a joke. We don't need to Nerf block. I love health debuff ing someone and watching them drain all thir magic spamming heals while we swat them down like a fly.

Xjcon · November 2014

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

There are so many things about combat in video games that are unrealistic, why narrow in on this one, if only to nerf tanks in general. If heavy armor actually were worth a damn maybe this might possibly be ok, however heavy armor is not remotely worthwhile. Worse still there is the issue that I agree with AlexDougherty with regard to the aoe/cone 'slushiness' of a lot of powers. Another issue is that there is no player collision either. While I would love an mmo to come up with a way to make the Phalanx formation actually useful via collision and shield walls, I don't think its ever going to happen.

There's realism problems of all kinds of other levels if you really want to complain. For starters, where are all the polearms and spears? Spears are amazingly deadly weapons of war that essentially every culture that has ever fought another culture has used. Halberds are fantastic for shield formations and messing with enemies across shield wall lines. The animations themselves aren't exactly realistic with regard to the way combat really looks. Most games overextend motions for the sake of excitement (like movies),and the reality is most of those moves are utter insanity in a real fight. Lets take the simple swords swipe motion as an example. Does anyone really think its a good idea to swing your swords so hard, that your back/shoulder is actually exposed to the enemy on every single swing? The reality is combat in warfare plays for keeps, and most of the time people did their best to avoid exposure to death. Sword techniques, spear techniques, and really most combat techniques involve subtle motions; just look at any fencer or kenjitsu/iaido stylist.

The position of the hands on a staff in staff combat is not really true to the warfare handling of a staff (which would be like a spear apart from when an enemy is bunched up close on you). This one is easy to let pass though, because wizards use the weapon, and there is really only one melee attack in the skill line.

Anyway, at the end of the day the animations of the game are just there to represent that a player is fighting more defensively when he's got his shield up. If realism is really bothering you, just imagine that the character is using footwork and is being more agile than the character is being portrayed graphically.

I like this point. Why do people want realism in a game with magic and fantasy creatures?

bosmern_ESO · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

It should stay 360 degrees but there should be some things to balance it, specially for pvp.

In PvE its fairly good, Coming from a seasoned V14 tank that does dailies and trials, you don't need to be blocking 100% of the boss battles, you really only need it for when you are low healthed, you're in red, or boss can hit heavy. (if tanks focus only on blocking they get very low dps, the lower the dps the longer it takes to kill boss, giving a higher chance of wipe and causing more stress on healer)

In pvp it gives a massive advantage over those who don't focus on blocking, there needs to be some sort of penalty that would kill tanks in PvE but allow people fighting against blockers to not be throwing a stick at a lead wall.

-Some penalty's could be like reduced damage when attacking while blocking, like 40-50% damage reduction.
-There could also be a 'fatigued' status effect which would make it so you block 50-60% less damage and can be effected by knock-back, stuns, disorients, etc.

Xjcon · November 2014

Or they could run out of stamina eventually and block suddenly is useless till they build it back up...

khele23eb17_ESO · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

Xjcon wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

There are so many things about combat in video games that are unrealistic, why narrow in on this one, if only to nerf tanks in general. If heavy armor actually were worth a damn maybe this might possibly be ok, however heavy armor is not remotely worthwhile. Worse still there is the issue that I agree with AlexDougherty with regard to the aoe/cone 'slushiness' of a lot of powers. Another issue is that there is no player collision either. While I would love an mmo to come up with a way to make the Phalanx formation actually useful via collision and shield walls, I don't think its ever going to happen.

There's realism problems of all kinds of other levels if you really want to complain. For starters, where are all the polearms and spears? Spears are amazingly deadly weapons of war that essentially every culture that has ever fought another culture has used. Halberds are fantastic for shield formations and messing with enemies across shield wall lines. The animations themselves aren't exactly realistic with regard to the way combat really looks. Most games overextend motions for the sake of excitement (like movies),and the reality is most of those moves are utter insanity in a real fight. Lets take the simple swords swipe motion as an example. Does anyone really think its a good idea to swing your swords so hard, that your back/shoulder is actually exposed to the enemy on every single swing? The reality is combat in warfare plays for keeps, and most of the time people did their best to avoid exposure to death. Sword techniques, spear techniques, and really most combat techniques involve subtle motions; just look at any fencer or kenjitsu/iaido stylist.

The position of the hands on a staff in staff combat is not really true to the warfare handling of a staff (which would be like a spear apart from when an enemy is bunched up close on you). This one is easy to let pass though, because wizards use the weapon, and there is really only one melee attack in the skill line.

Anyway, at the end of the day the animations of the game are just there to represent that a player is fighting more defensively when he's got his shield up. If realism is really bothering you, just imagine that the character is using footwork and is being more agile than the character is being portrayed graphically.

I like this point. Why do people want realism in a game with magic and fantasy creatures?

Youre confusing realism with internal consistency. A fantasy world might not have the same set of rules as reality but it does have rules and whatever is happening in this world should be consistent with them. Blocking in ESO is not a form of magic thus it should not offer magical forcefield-like protection.

Xjcon · November 2014

Right and neither should a half swing or even 1/4 swing give full damage but it does.

Mumyo · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

24/7 block wouldnt be that strong anymore or can at least be outplayed!

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

Blocking should be only 180 deg or block casting should be negated, as in you can't cast spells while blocking.

Varicite · November 2014

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

We are working on the way blocking functions in general

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1347275#Comment_1347275

Not sure exactly what plans they have for blocking in the future, but they've already said that they are working on it already.

Perhaps they are revisiting the idea of 360 permanent blocking among other things.

eliisra · November 2014

Do people really realise how ridiculously easy it would be for ranged to pin down and wipe a mele, without full block?

I could just walk around someone, while his fighting something, than knock him down from safe 30-40 meters range. Than the guy is dead, easiet kill ever, because once you're on your back in PvP, you cant really recover.

You never have full visual on all your opponents in PvP battles. Doesn't matter how much you zoom out, there's always that grey area behind you and often you're fighting 20-40 players. I don't even have to be in stealth to hit someone from behind unnoticed, because the game doesn't have a 360 degree view.

For a frontal cone type of block to be even remotely useful, we need to change other mechanics as well. Visual field would have to be greater. You should ideally be able to see someone standing at max target range, behind your character channelling a projectile, so you could spin around and get block up.

Block/cast how ever, that need some serious tweaking. I'm also guessing, that's what's developers are revisiting.

Hortator Mopa · November 2014

360 in PVE and cone in PVP... should be in the vote.

ferzalrwb17_ESO · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

There are dodge and miss mechanics you can build around and should have to build around. It should be less than 360, you shouldn't be able to block-dps-spam (defensive skills and S+S skils that make sense should be castable).

Should...

But a whole lot of stuff would need to change. PVP lag would have you getting hit in the back and you wouldn't know it until you were dead. There would need to be threat in PvE.

Like ZOS reads any of this junk anyway...

AssaultLemming · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

Lag makes anything other than 360 block impractical. /endthread

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

360 Blocking and Block Casting in PvP can rightly *** itself out of here.

360 Blocking and Block Casting in PvE is fine by me.

Ironfyre · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Ironfyre wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Ironfyre wrote: »

Attacking is active offense.
It is, thankfully, directional - meaning you have to aim at your opponent while executing attacks. This adds to combat mechanics in a way that benefit player movement, positioning and reaction.

AOE isn't!

Ironfyre wrote: »

Blocking is active defense.
Right now, it is omnidirectional, and does not need any other player interaction other than pressing (and keeping pressed) one button. No real awareness needed, you mitigate a large percentage of damage basically for free

No it isn't. It uses Stamina! You run out of stamina, you're not blocking anything!

Ironfyre wrote: »

... No real awareness needed, you mitigate a large percentage of damage basically for free (I'm not talking about resources, I do hope that is clear).

Yeah I specifically ignored that part SPECIFICALLY because it makes no sense to call something that uses resources "Free". Sorry Dudley! You can't have your free and eat it too!

Alright, you didn't read my whole post (or did not grasp what I was talking about) and got confused by the word free, that's alright. I admit using a metaphor was something I probably should have avoided to do.

Just a little allegory:
Imagine there is a button that gives you a cookie each time you press it, and if you keep pressing it, the cookies keep coming and coming.
Now, as soon as you eat one of the cookies, a ghost appears and demands one banana for each cookie you ate. Thankfully, you grandpa has a banana farm, so you've got plenty of those - and once your stock of bananas is depleted, you just wait a little for new ones to grow.
- After a while you get tired of pressing the button, and decide to sit on it, so that you don't have to think about it anymore, while still having a steady supply of cookies that cost you nothing - unless you eat one.

Now, the math part: How many bananas does it cost you to sit on the button? And: how many bananas does it take to keep sitting on the button?

PLOT-TWIST!

the magical cookie button = block button
cookies = damage mitigation through blocking
eat a cookie = taking actual damage while holding block
ghost = your enemy, dealing you damage
bananas = stamina
your grandpa's banana farm = stamina regeneration
sit on the button = keeping the block button pressed without really having to think about it

"Free" even has two meanings there:
One, it doesnt cost you stamina to keep the button pressed, unless you take damage.
Two, it doesn't take any real thought ("brain-power") to keep it pressed.

eliisra wrote: »

I could just walk around someone, while his fighting something, than knock him down from safe 30-40 meters range. Than the guy is dead, easiet kill ever, because once you're on your back in PvP, you cant really recover.

You never have full visual on all your opponents in PvP battles. Doesn't matter how much you zoom out, there's always that grey area behind you and often you're fighting 20-40 players. I don't even have to be in stealth to hit someone from behind unnoticed, because the game doesn't have a 360 degree view.

That is exactly the point of it. Why exactly should one be allowed to defend against something one can not even perceive? Is one truly supposed to be all-knowing and ever prepared against everything that happens around him? Does this stand in any relation to either the real world or the lore of this game?
I'd be happy to stand corrected, but I do not believe any of this should be the case.
Flanking, ambushing, scouting and many more tactics of warfare all build upon the fact that we are not capable of neither perceive our surrounding to their fullest, nor are able to defend against every and all threats without even knowing their source.

Anyways, I stated my opinion on the topic on page 1 already.

TehMagnus · November 2014

block should stay 360 degrees

grimsfield wrote: »

Considering that there is no aoe taunt, taunt is broken, and people are frequently swarmed by mobs, changing the block area would be a very very foolish idea.

Hypertionb14_ESO · November 2014

block should only be a frontal cone (please give a number if you pick this ex. 120 degrees)

Yusuf wrote: »

Possibly all the players who voted 180° are bow-gankers anyway, stop trying to mold the game the way it only suits you.

i would like to point out that even if they limited the radius like this, Bow users would still be badly disadvantaged once you know where they are since they cannot get around your radius as easily due to how slowly they will rotate around you at the range they try to hit you with.

finally, if you use any target ability you will face the target anyways, unless you are rooted and can turn and even then your character will still turn..

this change only would make it possible for melee combat users to have a way around constantly blocking enemys or people who walk into large groups of enemies have to be mindful of some of their foes lest they expose their back and get quickly taken down as a result..

in other words... the people it would hurt most are the 1vX builds designed to basically be invincible in the middle of a enemy raid.

bow people would still be completly unable to get past the block once their position is made... just like it is now...