The thing about creating balance is that it generally involves change, good and bad, in order to achieve it.

While a Sorcerer may be doing "pathetic damage" now, when compared to what it used to be doing, the real question is whether it will do "pathetic damage" when compared to everything else. It may well be that Sorcerers do "proper damage" now, which may be less than what they used to do, but will be consistent with everyone else will do.

From comments in another thread where people were posting that you could grind a VR level on zombies in 4-5 hours (the poster mentioned VR 4 zombies in DC) it seems like grinding is way faster than questing still if you know where to grind.

If the above is true, and you only care about getting the most xp per hour, then I would say that ZOS is forcing you NOT to do Cadwell's silver and gold.

By all accounts, even with the reduction in VR xp needed per rank from 1.4 million to 1 million, you will take longer to level doing Cadwell's than you will grinding mobs so I hardly see how you feel forced to do those quests.

Audigy wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Grinding is an alternative if you really don't want to do quests. What's the problem?

If the Spell Scar mobs somehow get altered so you can't gain XP way faster there than is intended, you can still grind. It just won't be as fast (nor should it be).

Instead, if you like to PvP, why not ask them to increase the XP gains in Cyrodiil? You know, so you can level at an equal rate to grinding or questing while doing something you actually consider fun. Just a thought.

The problem is that grinding allows people to get more points in the future Champion System than those who actually play the game, therefore it must be limited to be equally to questing, exploring or pvp.

Is this so hard to understand?

You guys need to realize that this isn't Skyrim where cheating, exploiting etc. was fine. This is an MMO and everything that you do has an effect on others and it cant be that a Grinder gains an unfair advantage over the rest.

How is PVP supposed to look in future? Grinders with Champion level 100 vs. non Grinders with 10? Do you think that's fun?

How is gaining comparable XP by grinding to questing a cheat or an exploit?

You know as well as i do that when they unveil this Camp system that it will be a cluster of epic proportions. i'd bet no one has the same amount of Vet points, and their tracking won't be accurate.

All they have to do is cap the amount of Champ points you can get by the XP you earn now to 1 set number, then grinders will not have any advantage day one because everyone who is Vet14 will have the same amount of Champ points when it goes live. Thats the proper way to do it, and the fair way.

As it stands now, even nerfing XP gains, there are still people who are going to grind as many points as they can anyways and probably will have more champ points day one. So this whole argument doesn't make sense and uses circular logic.

Those who reached max vet rank week 2 of release and have played that toon ever since will have an advantage over the guy who just got Vet 14 a few weeks ago, so whats the point?

They should just cap the amount of Vet points 1 can earn "before" the Champ system is put into the game, and left the XP alone.

This whole thing is a half arsed cluster of epic proportions, nerfing XP rates from all sources the way they have, and expecting people to be able to level...Someone posted yesterday they killed a world boss for the first time and got 943 XP, yet killed a Wamasu and got like 750 or something...why bother with the world boss?

Dolmens are hardly worth bothering with, Quest XP was nerfed. it doesn't make sense.

If they want to implement the Champ system, then they should have left the XP alone until they put the champ system in the game, now we are left with an unfinished XP barometer that doesn't even belong in the game with the current Vet rank system, and players are left holding the bag with nerfed XP until whenever they decide to release the champ system.

Be it your a quester, a grinder, ad pvp, etc WE ALL LOSE UNDER THIS CURRENT XP NERF because this system does not fit with the way the game and its veteran ranks is currently set up..the XP system should not have been touched until the Champ system was live....

As it stands right now, this is the equivalent of Microsoft releasing Office 2016 but only Word and Excel are 2016 versions, the rest of the suite is 2013 and the new 2016 uses a new file format...its just a cluster, if past patch mess ups are any indication of what we get to expect, you better hold on to your hats, because were probably going to be dealing with a very broken game. I don't see how that helps anyone.

This is also a new player and PvPer issue. Not just an altaholic issue.

There comes a point where the average new player will never catch up to the new content because of the leveling burden. There also comes a point where a hardcore gamer will be hard pressed to catch up. For this reason, almost every MMO makes leveling at lower levels significantly faster as they add more levels, so that new players can quickly catch up, and tailors the speed of progression to the pace of an average player. By levels, I include gear progression schemes some games have that are essentially leveling time sinks. Like making Warlock rings incredibly hard to get after more than half the population already has them.... but I digress.

Further, old content, even if it's new to you, is old content. Not just the fact that fewer and fewer people will be available to group with, but just that feeling that the content you are doing is irrelevant to where the bulk of the players are at. Some people enjoy the trip, but most people are "builder" types that need to be within a stones throw of the Joneses.

Nobody was forced to go grind in Craglorn. Anyone who wants to can still slowly quest grind to VR10, and beat their head against a wall when they can't find groups to get to VR14. I think ZOS thinks they keep players longer with a longer grind even after the first few waves of players have reached endgame. It's unrealistic.

"woodsro wrote: »

I hav eover 20 RL friends that stopped playing this game, everyone month they ask me if its worth coming back, I tell them yes, and the first thing they ask me is:

"Do i still have to do those Caldwell Quests to get achievements, XP, etc" when i tell them its still in the game, they respond with "nah not interested"

Sorry, but your friends are a bit silly. That is the equivalent of someone asking "Does the game have PvP?" and then deciding not to play the game because it does, even though it has way more PvE content than PvP.

Nobody is forcing you to get the the Silver and Gold zones.

I will do it for all my toons because I enjoy running around killing VR mobs/bosses, but I could just as well spend my time doing other stuff if that wasn't my cup of tea.

Edit: Fixed quote tags

lordrichter wrote: »

I hardly call this "out of touch" with your community. I think they are very much "in touch" and simply don't agree with you. That is a huge difference.

Honestly, ask yourself a question, what does it matter if i reach Vet14 through grinding and you reach it through questing? We both reached Vet14, just though a different method. You will have more skillpoints then me due to questing, if anything, me (the grinder) is the one getting shortchanged, not you.

My point is, why does it matter "how" we get to Vet14, in terms of stats, HP, MP, Stamina, etc we will be equivalent so why does it matter how we reach the same level?

lordrichter wrote: »

The one point that we seem to agree on, and I do want to point this out so that it does not get lost, is that Cadwell needs to take his pot and get lost. We differ on the details regarding why, which is fine.

I totally agree with your assessment, and you also have a solid reason why you don't want to do all 3 factions on the same character, this is actually one of the big gripes I have seen about it.

woodsro wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

"woodsro wrote: »

I hav eover 20 RL friends that stopped playing this game, everyone month they ask me if its worth coming back, I tell them yes, and the first thing they ask me is:

"Do i still have to do those Caldwell Quests to get achievements, XP, etc" when i tell them its still in the game, they respond with "nah not interested"

Sorry, but your friends are a bit silly. That is the equivalent of someone asking "Does the game have PvP?" and then deciding not to play the game because it does, even though it has way more PvE content than PvP.

Nobody is forcing you to get the the Silver and Gold zones.

I will do it for all my toons because I enjoy running around killing VR mobs/bosses, but I could just as well spend my time doing other stuff if that wasn't my cup of tea.

Edit: Fixed quote tags

Why is it silly? There are achievements, dyes, skill points, and sky shards that are locked away from them because they don't want to quest grind. They already did all the 1-50 quests in 6 zones, they don't want to do anymore, they have had enough quests, but a whole bunch of skill points, achievements, and dyes are locked behind those zones....they have a legitimate gripe about it.

So they are already burned out on quests, but if they want all those skyshards, skillpoints, and dyes, they gotta....go through Caldwells Silver and Gold...

How would you feel if they locked out an entire skill line from you unless you done something you didn't like? I bet you wouldn't be happy about that, well thats how they feel. They have a legit gripe.

try to see it from their point of view too, its unfair to lock away game content and skillpoints behind something someone doesn't want to do.

You mean like that nice Red dye you get when you become Emperor? The Emperor and Former Emperor skill lines?

The 50 skill points you get by gaining PvP ranks?

Those are all locked away from people who don't want to PvP.

(Now, while I will never be emperor, I will eventually PvP enough to get at least some of those skill points.)

Not to mention the two dyes each you get for being a Werewolf and a Vampire.

There are Achievements/skill points locked away behind something you don't want to do for pretty much any given player.

Personally, I am working through the Silver zones, though I focused first on finishing only the Caldwell quests so I could go to the Gold zones if I wanted to. It's a nice challenge because by the time you get to the 5th zone you are underlevelled and that makes the quests a bit tougher.

Now I can go wherever I want in the game, can get almost all the Skyshards and all the World Bosses/Dolmens and never have to do another quest if I don't feel like it.

I'm against Cadwell's Silver/Gold more because, as an EP player, I spend most of 1-50 thwarting the DC and AD, then you're asking me to help them, by association, working against my alliance? Seems counter-productive. Plus as a human helping the humano-phobic AD seems self-hating.

spryler wrote: »

"WE ALL LOSE UNDER THIS CURRENT XP NERF"

The way I see it, the only people who lose are the Craglorn grinders and NBs who skipped tons of mobs to complete quests quickly. Everyone else should be getting approximately the same xp, the losses are made up by xp from killing normal mobs.

Incorrect.

Update 5 was advertised as to make Veteran Leveling faster. What was delivered was the complete opposite. Even if you complete every quest, dolmen, world boss, public dungeon, dungeon in a zone, you are still underlevel for the next zone. In order to make up that level discrepancy, you would be forced to grind mobs, grind dungeons(if that gives XP after the 1st completion) or subject yourself to the agonizingly slow level grind that is PvP.

So the way you see it is incorrect. Everyone loses if XP stays as it currently stands.

Only people who don't lose are those with 8 V14's and no plans to make a 2nd account for alts. They've won, they got in under the wire. The rest of us have to wait until this debacle is fixed before we can level with any kind of reasonable effort.

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

With the implementation of the Champion System since everyone is going back to level 50 at some point then it should make both Silver and Gold be at level 50 also meaning hopefully it should make it optional but not forced.

^This was the first response. The CS will make Caldwell's optional. Everyone will be lvl50 and have the option to go to the 50+ and 50++ zones if they want to or not.

I think what there intention is, is more or less to equailze the different types of leveling in the game. With 1.5 they in essance gave normal mobs 4x the exp they use to ( all mobs seem to give 400 some exp if you are at their level, and as vr1 use to be close to 1 mill exp needed and 100 exp per mob that is 4 times higher, and vr 10 needed close to 4 mill exp and got 400 xp per normal mob that is 4 times less exp needed to level). They also made it so a player is worth about 1.2k (if killed solo in pvp) and a bounty quest is worth 11k ish ( simliar to a "very hard quest"). The areas that really got hit with a nerf was questing (might be due to the bug) and elite monsters in craglorn ( which were giving close to 100 x normal mob exp before). If they stuck with those values that could of lead to everyone feeling they HAD to grind in craglorn. But if they can fix some of the balances it might lead to more of a balance (but slower if you wanted to craglorn grind) leveling experience where you could play any way you want to and get similar exp (pvp will always be lower due to how hard it is to balance >.> players kill vs mobs kills).

This is all in prep for the champion system, the concern players had when first announce was that their would be grind spots, and it would turn into a "grind to max CP" instead of just having it be something you obtained as you played ( complaint from some pvp threads I saw a while back),

You only ever played one toon in Skyrim?


And I think the argument that "there are all these achievements/skyshards that I can't get unless I play the vet zones" is a bit odd.

What if you couldn't? The achievements/skyshards would still be there, but you would never be able to get them with one toon. Now you have to option. If you want.

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

I think what there intention is, is more or less to equailze the different types of leveling in the game. With 1.5 they in essance gave normal mobs 4x the exp they use to ( all mobs seem to give 400 some exp if you are at their level, and as vr1 use to be close to 1 mill exp needed and 100 exp per mob that is 4 times higher, and vr 10 needed close to 4 mill exp and got 400 xp per normal mob that is 4 times less exp needed to level). They also made it so a player is worth about 1.2k (if killed solo in pvp) and a bounty quest is worth 11k ish ( simliar to a "very hard quest"). The areas that really got hit with a nerf was questing (might be due to the bug) and elite monsters in craglorn ( which were giving close to 100 x normal mob exp before). If they stuck with those values that could of lead to everyone feeling they HAD to grind in craglorn. But if they can fix some of the balances it might lead to more of a balance (but slower if you wanted to craglorn grind) leveling experience where you could play any way you want to and get similar exp (pvp will always be lower due to how hard it is to balance >.> players kill vs mobs kills).

This is all in prep for the champion system, the concern players had when first announce was that their would be grind spots, and it would turn into a "grind to max CP" instead of just having it be something you obtained as you played ( complaint from some pvp threads I saw a while back),

Again, the issue is that even upon fully completing Gold/Silver and the Cyrodiil quests, you are forced to group simply to hit max level.

There's nothing wrong with grouping for dungeons and delves, but Craglorn is not geared to be soloable in any way shape or form.

And the logistics to assemble a group to run the quests is infinitely harder than any quest. The PUGs don't work reliably and LFG tool has zero groups being formed in it for Craglorn quests.

The guilds are generally formed for the hardest logistical content, which is 12 mans and organized group PVP.

Until developers understand that group content has major logistical implications, requiring groups to clear an entire zone's storyline is going to fail miserably.

I was refering to the orignal post where he wanted their to be a fast way to level alts, I was trying to give a perspective that Zenimax was trying to go by ( trying to equalize exp gain through all ways of level). If they hadn't then their would of been many min maxers that would of gone to Craglorn and tried to max out their CP in the least amount of time possible. I don't think I ever referenced a story line aspect of it, this thread was not about cadwell silver/gold not getting you to max level it was he didn't want to play it at all.

I actually hit max level solo grinding mobs ( had a spot out of craglorn that netted 400k exp per hour due to laptop issues I couldn't really group). So needing a group to hit max level isn't needed nor ever was needed.

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

spryler wrote: »

"WE ALL LOSE UNDER THIS CURRENT XP NERF"

The way I see it, the only people who lose are the Craglorn grinders and NBs who skipped tons of mobs to complete quests quickly. Everyone else should be getting approximately the same xp, the losses are made up by xp from killing normal mobs.

Incorrect.

Update 5 was advertised as to make Veteran Leveling faster. What was delivered was the complete opposite. Even if you complete every quest, dolmen, world boss, public dungeon, dungeon in a zone, you are still underlevel for the next zone. In order to make up that level discrepancy, you would be forced to grind mobs, grind dungeons(if that gives XP after the 1st completion) or subject yourself to the agonizingly slow level grind that is PvP.

So the way you see it is incorrect. Everyone loses if XP stays as it currently stands.

Only people who don't lose are those with 8 V14's and no plans to make a 2nd account for alts. They've won, they got in under the wire. The rest of us have to wait until this debacle is fixed before we can level with any kind of reasonable effort.

Quoted for the truth!

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

It's this simple:

The game needs a veteran 10-14 zone with solo content.

Nail hit on head!

It's a shame ZOS don't share that view.

Last night I played for about 5 hours straight, I did some undaunted's with guildies first for about 1 hour, needing some groovy sets for PvP then thought I'd go off to finish off the last of the quests I have left to complete Caldwells Gold as it's been on my to do list. Got the shards, just can't be arsed doing the quests.

I ran into two people all night, literally 4 hours of play and 2 people in total was all that I saw. I've got alts that I roll, and the starter areas are always busy, Vulkhel Guard for instance is always of busy mecca of things going on, plenty of things happening all the time, zone chat is always entertaining there, but Caldwells Gold is dead as a dodo.

Ideally, I would have liked a questing partner for some of that stuff, just so I could get through it a little quicker, but with the lack of people around it's just not possible.