Why does Zenimax seem intent on forcing us into Caldwell's Silver/Gold?

RinaldoGandolphi · November 2014

I know Spell Scar is a grind spot right now, but I don't expect that to last more then two weeks at most before they patch it out to make that not possible.

Ok so i have already went through Caldwell's Silver/Gold on my main character. I have completed EVERY SINGLE QUEST IN EVERY SINGLE ZONE OF CALDWELLS. (Bolded and capitalized for posterity)

I do not want to do it again. , However i just started an Alt the other day when they brought these XP changes on. Zenimax is essentially doing everything they can to force us into playing through this. I do not want to play through that grind again, This character is being made for PVP mostly, I don't care about Caldwells on this toon, I don't care about the achivements, I don't care about the skill points, I don't want to do it.

All i want is to get that character to Vet14 so i can pvp on equal footing with everyone else. I should not be forced and pigeonholed into doing a long quest line I have already done...I don't get enjoyment out of repeating the same dialogue, quests, etc over and over again...no sane person would.

We should be able to grind Bittermaw, or whatever else we can find for reasonable EXP. the reasons grinding is better then doing Caldwell's again is:

1. I don't have to listen to the same quest dialogs i have heard already.
2. I don't have to worry about a quest being bugged and not able to be completed.

The mass exodus that happened with this game at the first month was largely on the shoulders of the Caldwell's Line. Most people do not want to do this. Sure the option should be there to do those quests whenever someone feels like it, but grinding in Craglorn for the XP amounts we used to get should be just as viable now was it was a few weeks ago.

Look at that Caldwell Vet zones, they are empty, you will be lucky to see 1 or 2 other people on a good night...folks do not want to do that grind, its obvious...so why are you wanting to force this on us? This may be a time sink, but its a time sink that will drive people away.

the Champion System is probably a few months off yet, and no one knows for 100% sure how this system is going to work...its doubtful a level 50 will be on the the same level and constellation points as a Vet14, else the community would be in an uproar, so getting to Vet14 is still important now as it was 2 months ago. in PVP anyone below Vet14 is just cannon fodder unless you enjoy just spamming healing springs or operating siege.

I thought the recipe for a successful business is giving your paying customers what they want. Its obvious very few of your paying customers are interested in Caldwell's Silver or Gold, if they were, those zones wouldn't be ghost towns like they have been for months. Very few are interested. This makes as much sense as a restaurant keeping an item on the menu that they only sell 2-3 or per year...it makes no sense at all.

The fact the Vet zones are ghost towns for the most part just gives a deafening scream from the majority of this player base that they don't want to do it, if people wanted to do those zones, it would be populated like Glenumbra is at the beginning of a new character.

However, since XP is nerfed for the most part (i'll keep my fingers crossed Spellscar is an option when i hit 50 on my Alt, but i doubt it will be)....im gonna be shoehorned into doing that incessant Caldwell grind I can't stand.... if I am, then i guess i will become an alcoholic every weekend, because Im not sure even that will get me through those again, thats how much i loathe them.

I love the rest of this game, but I can not stand the Caldwell Zones I literally threw a celebration when i got through them the 1st time. I don't want to do it again, ever.

Grinding should be a viable alternative, I thought this game was "play as you want" take the Bittermaw grind for example, that wasn't hurting anyone...you had these few folks telling everyone its an exploit because we didn't want to go through that bore me to tears Caldwell quest grinding nonsense, instead we wanted to kill a monster, and get our levels that way.

why does it matter how we get our levels Zenimax?, what should matter is making sure folks stick around and keep paying...as long as im paying you, it shouldn't matter if i grind or quest for my levels.

If your so incessent on preventing grinding Zenimax, then please give me an option to just pay money to be Vet14...I'll glady chunk out 35-50 dollars just to avoid that Caldwell's nonsense...im being dead serious...I don't want to do it again...I would rather poke myself in the eyes with chopsticks then go through that again....

You need to offer an option for those of us who don't want to do this quest grind(since those vet zones are ghost towns, i'd say that's quite a lot of us), give us the option to bypass that nonsense, I will glady pay for it, or give us a viable grind, just something. This isn't pay to win, if a person buys Vet14 he is no better off then the person who got it the standard way, infact the person who got it the long way will have more skill points and still have an advantage over the guy/gal that paid for it.

I know this is a long post, but i have to say my piece...the thought of having to play Caldwell's again, listen to that same dialog again, it just makes me shudder....it makes me cringe...thats not enjoyable at all, its obviously not appealing to very many other people either considering Caldwell Vet zones are nearly devoid of life...you can post in Zone Chat and wait 45 minutes to kill a world boss or do a dolmen and not see a peep or a soul around...im glad im in a very good guild else i never would have completed those zones the 1st time around....

At the very least Zenimax, im begging you...leave Spell Scar grind alone...thats all i ask.

ers101284b14_ESO · November 2014

During Beta people said they wanted to do everything on 1 character and wanted to make an Alt because they wanted to not because they where forced to since they didn't want to do 1-50 then PVP until Craglorn was out. That's why Vet Ranks and Caldwells Silver and Gold exist. It was a quick and easy way to give people what they want.

I know people say ZOS doesn't listen but honestly they listen too much sometimes. With the implementation of the Champion System since everyone is going back to level 50 at some point then it should make both Silver and Gold be at level 50 also meaning hopefully it should make it optional but not forced.

reften · November 2014

The real issue is, people are ok with grinding mobs for XP...Zenimax isn't, and I'm not sure why.

I too have done cadwells gold. But I miss the days of getting 4-6 players together, just roaming around pulling ultra tough mobs in a high risk high reward setting, and getting mad xp and loot/gold. Simple grouping mechanics and just overall gameplay.

Zen pushes us to quest, in a system designed for solo players in an MMO. (Yes, group quests exists but terrible xp and loot plus awful group finder tools = tough to find groups)

Valencer · November 2014

Grinding is an alternative if you really don't want to do quests. What's the problem?

If the Spell Scar mobs somehow get altered so you can't gain XP way faster there than is intended, you can still grind. It just won't be as fast (nor should it be).

Instead, if you like to PvP, why not ask them to increase the XP gains in Cyrodiil? You know, so you can level at an equal rate to grinding or questing while doing something you actually consider fun. Just a thought.

RinaldoGandolphi · November 2014

Valencer wrote: »

Grinding is an alternative if you really don't want to do quests. What's the problem?

If the Spell Scar mobs somehow get altered so you can't gain XP way faster there than is intended, you can still grind. It just won't be as fast (nor should it be).

Instead, if you like to PvP, why not ask them to increase the XP gains in Cyrodiil? You know, so you can level at an equal rate to grinding or questing while doing something you actually consider fun. Just a thought.

I would be estatic if they raised XP gains in Cyrodiil so i could just PVP and get XP instead of questing. I wonder what the chances of them doing that are though?

zaria · November 2014

woodsro wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Grinding is an alternative if you really don't want to do quests. What's the problem?

If the Spell Scar mobs somehow get altered so you can't gain XP way faster there than is intended, you can still grind. It just won't be as fast (nor should it be).

Instead, if you like to PvP, why not ask them to increase the XP gains in Cyrodiil? You know, so you can level at an equal rate to grinding or questing while doing something you actually consider fun. Just a thought.

I would be estatic if they raised XP gains in Cyrodiil so i could just PVP and get XP instead of questing. I wonder what the chances of them doing that are though?

Problem with PvP xp is that you could also get grinding.
At least then forward camps become common you could rank up hundreds of assisted kills in minutes then two armies clashed together.

Aeratus · November 2014

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

During Beta people said they wanted to do everything on 1 character and wanted to make an Alt because they wanted to not because they where forced to since they didn't want to do 1-50 then PVP until Craglorn was out. That's why Vet Ranks and Caldwells Silver and Gold exist. It was a quick and easy way to give people what they want.

I know people say ZOS doesn't listen but honestly they listen too much sometimes. With the implementation of the Champion System since everyone is going back to level 50 at some point then it should make both Silver and Gold be at level 50 also meaning hopefully it should make it optional but not forced.

Misses the point. OP is not against having the OPTION of vet quest grind. He is against being FORCED to quest grind.

BBSooner · November 2014

Im fine going through Cadwell's s/g, I just want to get at least a VR level a zone. Hopefully with Monday's experience adjustment that will happen, but from the numbers @onlinegamer1‌ has been posting I don't think that's going to happen.

like1tiger · November 2014

woodsro wrote: »

I know Spell Scar is a grind spot right now, but I don't expect that to last more then two weeks at most before they patch it out to make that not possible.

Ok so i have already went through Caldwell's Silver/Gold on my main character. I have completed EVERY SINGLE QUEST IN EVERY SINGLE ZONE OF CALDWELLS. (Bolded and capitalized for posterity)

I do not want to do it again. , However i just started an Alt the other day when they brought these XP changes on. Zenimax is essentially doing everything they can to force us into playing through this. I do not want to play through that grind again, This character is being made for PVP mostly, I don't care about Caldwells on this toon, I don't care about the achivements, I don't care about the skill points, I don't want to do it.

All i want is to get that character to Vet14 so i can pvp on equal footing with everyone else. I should not be forced and pigeonholed into doing a long quest line I have already done...I don't get enjoyment out of repeating the same dialogue, quests, etc over and over again...no sane person would.

We should be able to grind Bittermaw, or whatever else we can find for reasonable EXP. the reasons grinding is better then doing Caldwell's again is:

1. I don't have to listen to the same quest dialogs i have heard already.
2. I don't have to worry about a quest being bugged and not able to be completed.

The mass exodus that happened with this game at the first month was largely on the shoulders of the Caldwell's Line. Most people do not want to do this. Sure the option should be there to do those quests whenever someone feels like it, but grinding in Craglorn for the XP amounts we used to get should be just as viable now was it was a few weeks ago.

Look at that Caldwell Vet zones, they are empty, you will be lucky to see 1 or 2 other people on a good night...folks do not want to do that grind, its obvious...so why are you wanting to force this on us? This may be a time sink, but its a time sink that will drive people away.

the Champion System is probably a few months off yet, and no one knows for 100% sure how this system is going to work...its doubtful a level 50 will be on the the same level and constellation points as a Vet14, else the community would be in an uproar, so getting to Vet14 is still important now as it was 2 months ago. in PVP anyone below Vet14 is just cannon fodder unless you enjoy just spamming healing springs or operating siege.

I thought the recipe for a successful business is giving your paying customers what they want. Its obvious very few of your paying customers are interested in Caldwell's Silver or Gold, if they were, those zones wouldn't be ghost towns like they have been for months. Very few are interested. This makes as much sense as a restaurant keeping an item on the menu that they only sell 2-3 or per year...it makes no sense at all.

The fact the Vet zones are ghost towns for the most part just gives a deafening scream from the majority of this player base that they don't want to do it, if people wanted to do those zones, it would be populated like Glenumbra is at the beginning of a new character.

However, since XP is nerfed for the most part (i'll keep my fingers crossed Spellscar is an option when i hit 50 on my Alt, but i doubt it will be)....im gonna be shoehorned into doing that incessant Caldwell grind I can't stand.... if I am, then i guess i will become an alcoholic every weekend, because Im not sure even that will get me through those again, thats how much i loathe them.

I love the rest of this game, but I can not stand the Caldwell Zones I literally threw a celebration when i got through them the 1st time. I don't want to do it again, ever.

Grinding should be a viable alternative, I thought this game was "play as you want" take the Bittermaw grind for example, that wasn't hurting anyone...you had these few folks telling everyone its an exploit because we didn't want to go through that bore me to tears Caldwell quest grinding nonsense, instead we wanted to kill a monster, and get our levels that way.

why does it matter how we get our levels Zenimax?, what should matter is making sure folks stick around and keep paying...as long as im paying you, it shouldn't matter if i grind or quest for my levels.

If your so incessent on preventing grinding Zenimax, then please give me an option to just pay money to be Vet14...I'll glady chunk out 35-50 dollars just to avoid that Caldwell's nonsense...im being dead serious...I don't want to do it again...I would rather poke myself in the eyes with chopsticks then go through that again....

You need to offer an option for those of us who don't want to do this quest grind(since those vet zones are ghost towns, i'd say that's quite a lot of us), give us the option to bypass that nonsense, I will glady pay for it, or give us a viable grind, just something. This isn't pay to win, if a person buys Vet14 he is no better off then the person who got it the standard way, infact the person who got it the long way will have more skill points and still have an advantage over the guy/gal that paid for it.

I know this is a long post, but i have to say my piece...the thought of having to play Caldwell's again, listen to that same dialog again, it just makes me shudder....it makes me cringe...thats not enjoyable at all, its obviously not appealing to very many other people either considering Caldwell Vet zones are nearly devoid of life...you can post in Zone Chat and wait 45 minutes to kill a world boss or do a dolmen and not see a peep or a soul around...im glad im in a very good guild else i never would have completed those zones the 1st time around....

At the very least Zenimax, im begging you...leave Spell Scar grind alone...thats all i ask.

it was a long read but totally worth it. I feel the same way! you speak the truth for myself and people like you!!!!

spryler · November 2014

Who is forcing you to do Caldwell's Gold and Silver?

Or actually the better question is, What would you rather do to level besides Caldwell's Gold and Silver?

You can already grind. You can already do dungeons. You can hang out in Cyrodiil and do some PVE and PVP (not the best xp true). You can explore the Caldwell Silver zones, doing delves, dungeons and just killing mobs (no quests).

Or you could do the entire quest lines of the other two factions (and remember this is a very solo focused game, so the large majority think that's preferable). Now you don't have to do this, but it's another option.

What is left out? What do you want?

rzupparo · November 2014

Doing the silver/gold zones wouldn't be so bad if they were different quests not the same exact quest as the non vet zones

Gedalya · November 2014

No one is forcing you to do Cadwell's Silver and Gold. In fact, after level 10, you are free to do little more than troll PvP.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

spryler wrote: »

Who is forcing you to do Caldwell's Gold and Silver?

Or actually the better question is, What would you rather do to level besides Caldwell's Gold and Silver?

Exactly.

I recently took a character back to an area I had finished, there were quests I had never noticed, some of them revealed lore, like how Bosmer and Orcs don't get on, and why.

Cadwells Silver and Gold could have done with a few new quests though, something for altaholics (really should be Altmanics, but hey) like myself to find.

Altmanic = Alt + Manic (from Mania Ancient Greek for Madness (including obsession))

ers101284b14_ESO · November 2014

Aeratus wrote: »

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

During Beta people said they wanted to do everything on 1 character and wanted to make an Alt because they wanted to not because they where forced to since they didn't want to do 1-50 then PVP until Craglorn was out. That's why Vet Ranks and Caldwells Silver and Gold exist. It was a quick and easy way to give people what they want.

I know people say ZOS doesn't listen but honestly they listen too much sometimes. With the implementation of the Champion System since everyone is going back to level 50 at some point then it should make both Silver and Gold be at level 50 also meaning hopefully it should make it optional but not forced.

Misses the point. OP is not against having the OPTION of vet quest grind. He is against being FORCED to quest grind.

He is not forced to quest grind. When you hit VR1 you can do Silver and Gold, you can PVP, you can go straight to Craglorn and grind out (Although its not as easy anymore), you can take undaunted pledges and do dungeons up to VR14. But ZOS wants it to take a certain amount of time to get each rank (it used to be 20 hours I don't even know what it is now) which means that on average no matter which way you choose to level it should take you around the same amount of time, some may go quicker than others but it should all be around the same.

Aeratus · November 2014

Or actually the better question is, What would you rather do to level besides Caldwell's Gold and Silver?

The old craglorn grind, of course. That is what I would rather do to level.

Also, I have already "experienced" Cadwell's Gold and Silver, and have concluded that there is nothing really interesting about it. I've actually gotten quest completion on all vet zones and even did so before the vet zones were nerfed into faceroll. But having done everything in Gold and Silver, it is clear to me that the quest grind is boring, and I would never do it again on another char.

RinaldoGandolphi · November 2014

spryler wrote: »

Who is forcing you to do Caldwell's Gold and Silver?

Zenimax with their XP nerfs

spryler wrote: »

Or actually the better question is, What would you rather do to level besides Caldwell's Gold and Silver?

Umm go back to grinding Bittermaw or some other grind, or maybe even give viable XP in Cyrodiil so i could actually rank up sometime in the next year?

spryler wrote: »

You can already grind. You can already do dungeons. You can hang out in Cyrodiil and do some PVE and PVP (not the best xp true). You can explore the Caldwell Silver zones, doing delves, dungeons and just killing mobs (no quests).

Yes with the nerfed XP gains, it will take a freaking eternity...you used to get a ton of XP the 1st time you completed a Dolmen or a World Boss, now you get hardly anything....

spryler wrote: »

Or you could do the entire quest lines of the other two factions (and remember this is a very solo focused game, so the large majority think that's preferable). Now you don't have to do this, but it's another option.

Yes forced to go through a a boring quest lines(Caldwells) I have already done. That will take me 2 months to do because i actually have to work two full time jobs and have responsibilities...all i want to do is PVP on my alt on competitive footing(Vet14) and Zenimax has done nothing but put restrictive barriers in my(and other peoples ways) at every turn.

spryler wrote: »

What is left out? What do you want?

I want Dolmens and World bosses to be worth the XP they were, I want grinding to be a viable alternative, I don't want to be forced into doing a boring quest line because Zeni nerfs every other way of getting XP.

Right now, Spell Scar is viable...but i doubt it lasts because it appears Zenimax has an Axe to grind against anyone who doesn't want to participate in such nonsense(Caldwell's) by nerfing every other viable way of getting XP its absurd....these decisions will drive a portion of their player base away.Folks don't want this.

Look im all about having the quest lines and stuff their, all flavor for all likes, but nerfing every other way of getting XP and pigeonholing me down a path of their choosing is not what i paid for when i bought this game...if i want to grind mobs, I should be allowed to, and my XP gains should not be nerfed because of it...Caldwells was ok the 1st time around, but i don't want to do it again, i have already done it...why would i want to? Let me grind, for all that is holy...

AlnilamE · November 2014

Do you have any evidence that 1 hour of questing Caldwell's Gold/Silver will yield more XP than an hour of running around killing things of an appropriate level?

I mean, if all you want to do is PvP, nothing stops you from going to Cyrodiil with your toon the minute you hit level 10. It's just in your mind that you feel you have to be V14 to do it.

I'm fine with people who want to grind grinding and people who want to quest questing, but I think ZOS' approach is that neither method should be considerably faster than the other.

RinaldoGandolphi · November 2014

AlnilamE wrote: »

I'm fine with people who want to grind grinding and people who want to quest questing, but I think ZOS' approach is that neither method should be considerably faster than the other.

The only reason Caldwells is slower is because of reading quest dialog and running around...you actually have to kill more monsters grinding then you do doing Caldwells to get the same gains, grinding im not forced to listen or click through stuff i have already heard, or ride around all over God creation to fetch a ring for some poor woman....

This XP nerf also effects Caldwell Quests as well, as they give significantly less XP now then they did before, meaning you will be hard pressed to gain 1 VR per zone doing the quests which makes it an even tougher sell. Give me the previous Caldwell quest XP gains and World Boss/Dolmen gains and i may teeter on the side of saying"Ok i guess i can do it 1 more time" because i would actually make progress, but now? those quests don't give anywhere near the XP they did, and World bosses and Dolmens are useless...this equals a time sink boring grind im not remotely interested in.

I guess one way or another, I will just have to find a way to grind that is viable.

nalimoleb14_ESO · November 2014

woodsro wrote: »

I know Spell Scar is a grind spot right now, but I don't expect that to last more then two weeks at most before they patch it out to make that not possible.

Ok so i have already went through Caldwell's Silver/Gold on my main character. I have completed EVERY SINGLE QUEST IN EVERY SINGLE ZONE OF CALDWELLS. (Bolded and capitalized for posterity)

I do not want to do it again. , However i just started an Alt the other day when they brought these XP changes on. Zenimax is essentially doing everything they can to force us into playing through this. I do not want to play through that grind again, This character is being made for PVP mostly, I don't care about Caldwells on this toon, I don't care about the achivements, I don't care about the skill points, I don't want to do it.

All i want is to get that character to Vet14 so i can pvp on equal footing with everyone else. I should not be forced and pigeonholed into doing a long quest line I have already done...I don't get enjoyment out of repeating the same dialogue, quests, etc over and over again...no sane person would.

We should be able to grind Bittermaw, or whatever else we can find for reasonable EXP. the reasons grinding is better then doing Caldwell's again is:

1. I don't have to listen to the same quest dialogs i have heard already.
2. I don't have to worry about a quest being bugged and not able to be completed.

The mass exodus that happened with this game at the first month was largely on the shoulders of the Caldwell's Line. Most people do not want to do this. Sure the option should be there to do those quests whenever someone feels like it, but grinding in Craglorn for the XP amounts we used to get should be just as viable now was it was a few weeks ago.

Look at that Caldwell Vet zones, they are empty, you will be lucky to see 1 or 2 other people on a good night...folks do not want to do that grind, its obvious...so why are you wanting to force this on us? This may be a time sink, but its a time sink that will drive people away.

the Champion System is probably a few months off yet, and no one knows for 100% sure how this system is going to work...its doubtful a level 50 will be on the the same level and constellation points as a Vet14, else the community would be in an uproar, so getting to Vet14 is still important now as it was 2 months ago. in PVP anyone below Vet14 is just cannon fodder unless you enjoy just spamming healing springs or operating siege.

I thought the recipe for a successful business is giving your paying customers what they want. Its obvious very few of your paying customers are interested in Caldwell's Silver or Gold, if they were, those zones wouldn't be ghost towns like they have been for months. Very few are interested. This makes as much sense as a restaurant keeping an item on the menu that they only sell 2-3 or per year...it makes no sense at all.

The fact the Vet zones are ghost towns for the most part just gives a deafening scream from the majority of this player base that they don't want to do it, if people wanted to do those zones, it would be populated like Glenumbra is at the beginning of a new character.

However, since XP is nerfed for the most part (i'll keep my fingers crossed Spellscar is an option when i hit 50 on my Alt, but i doubt it will be)....im gonna be shoehorned into doing that incessant Caldwell grind I can't stand.... if I am, then i guess i will become an alcoholic every weekend, because Im not sure even that will get me through those again, thats how much i loathe them.

I love the rest of this game, but I can not stand the Caldwell Zones I literally threw a celebration when i got through them the 1st time. I don't want to do it again, ever.

Grinding should be a viable alternative, I thought this game was "play as you want" take the Bittermaw grind for example, that wasn't hurting anyone...you had these few folks telling everyone its an exploit because we didn't want to go through that bore me to tears Caldwell quest grinding nonsense, instead we wanted to kill a monster, and get our levels that way.

why does it matter how we get our levels Zenimax?, what should matter is making sure folks stick around and keep paying...as long as im paying you, it shouldn't matter if i grind or quest for my levels.

If your so incessent on preventing grinding Zenimax, then please give me an option to just pay money to be Vet14...I'll glady chunk out 35-50 dollars just to avoid that Caldwell's nonsense...im being dead serious...I don't want to do it again...I would rather poke myself in the eyes with chopsticks then go through that again....

You need to offer an option for those of us who don't want to do this quest grind(since those vet zones are ghost towns, i'd say that's quite a lot of us), give us the option to bypass that nonsense, I will glady pay for it, or give us a viable grind, just something. This isn't pay to win, if a person buys Vet14 he is no better off then the person who got it the standard way, infact the person who got it the long way will have more skill points and still have an advantage over the guy/gal that paid for it.

I know this is a long post, but i have to say my piece...the thought of having to play Caldwell's again, listen to that same dialog again, it just makes me shudder....it makes me cringe...thats not enjoyable at all, its obviously not appealing to very many other people either considering Caldwell Vet zones are nearly devoid of life...you can post in Zone Chat and wait 45 minutes to kill a world boss or do a dolmen and not see a peep or a soul around...im glad im in a very good guild else i never would have completed those zones the 1st time around....

At the very least Zenimax, im begging you...leave Spell Scar grind alone...thats all i ask.

This is a very interesting point. I'm satisfied with the way the game is set up at the moment because I'm one of those people who strictly focuses on one character and haaaates alts, but I've always wondered how agonizing it must be for people who like to level up multiple toons (especially for people who were SOMEHOW able to level up more than one toon to VR14 before this amazing VP to EXP conversation...God bless them) because as interesting and engaging as the quests in ESO are, doing them all two, three, four times over in order to get to VR14 just sounds like the worst kind of hell.

ZOS should definitely consider implementing more ways to cater to different players' styles, like the people who play strictly for PvP, the people who play strictly for PvE, the people who love grinding more than ice cream, etc. We shouldn't all be forced to play the same way. As it is, there's really no point in creating an alt if I've already leveled through and experienced the zones from all three factions.

It might be a shot in the dark, but this is why I was saying that from the start, all three factions' players should have been on the one megaserver, and all zones should have been open to everyone, instead of being very theme-parky. No VR zones being separate from level 1-50 zones. Everyone would have this vast expanse of land to travel to, grind wherever they want to grind, quest wherever they want to quest, PVP wherever they want to PVP, and just experience the game however they want.

Dagoth_Rac · November 2014

I think the core problem is:

With upcoming Champion System, there is no end. Players will constantly be getting better. If they kept the grind, people who grind will just be getting better and better, at a faster rate, than people who quest or PvP or run dungeons or whatever. This would be bad. Some people could never catch up. You have 30 Champion Points from PvP, but someone who grinds has 300. So you go grind to 300, but those people who had 300 are now at 600.

So ZOS want to make it where XP is normalized. An hour of questing will get you about the same XP as an hour of PvP or an hour of grinding or an hour of whatever. This will prevent any one group of players from zooming ahead of others.

But they need to get this normalized before the Champion System goes live. They don't want to release Champion System on a Monday morning, log in on Monday evening, and find out that one style of play has gained 587 Champion Points while all other styles of play have gained 8 Champion Points. If you work on normalizing XP at that point, and get it where all play styles are earning about 8 Champion Points in that time span, you have a bunch of people who will forever be 579 Champion Points ahead of everyone else.

So they need to normalize XP now. And have a month or so of monitoring it and making sure it is working, before they can think about dropping the Champion System.

That is what they are trying to do right now. It is not easy. I don't envy them.

OrangeTheCat · November 2014

I agree OP 100% It so infuriates me that we are forced to do Cadwell's now. I hate it. First they nerf the drops from grinding bosses (reasonable) and now the XP. I wonder if it is because ZOS spent all that money on voice actors and they want to get their money's worth.

AlnilamE · November 2014

woodsro wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

I'm fine with people who want to grind grinding and people who want to quest questing, but I think ZOS' approach is that neither method should be considerably faster than the other.

The only reason Caldwells is slower is because of reading quest dialog and running around...you actually have to kill more monsters grinding then you do doing Caldwells to get the same gains, grinding im not forced to listen or click through stuff i have already heard, or ride around all over God creation to fetch a ring for some poor woman....

Yeah, but my question is, is the XP gain for each method (and PvP as well, of course) comparable per hour of gaming? If it is, then I think that's as intended, and you are free to level in whichever way you want.

I feel that what people are complaining about is that mob grinding is no longer considerably faster than leveling via questing. Or am I wrong about that?

Grunim · November 2014

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think the core problem is:

With upcoming Champion System, there is no end. Players will constantly be getting better. If they kept the grind, people who grind will just be getting better and better, at a faster rate, than people who quest or PvP or run dungeons or whatever. This would be bad. Some people could never catch up. You have 30 Champion Points from PvP, but someone who grinds has 300. So you go grind to 300, but those people who had 300 are now at 600.

So ZOS want to make it where XP is normalized. An hour of questing will get you about the same XP as an hour of PvP or an hour of grinding or an hour of whatever. This will prevent any one group of players from zooming ahead of others.

But they need to get this normalized before the Champion System goes live. They don't want to release Champion System on a Monday morning, log in on Monday evening, and find out that one style of play has gained 587 Champion Points while all other styles of play have gained 8 Champion Points. If you work on normalizing XP at that point, and get it where all play styles are earning about 8 Champion Points in that time span, you have a bunch of people who will forever be 579 Champion Points ahead of everyone else.

So they need to normalize XP now. And have a month or so of monitoring it and making sure it is working, before they can think about dropping the Champion System.

That is what they are trying to do right now. It is not easy. I don't envy them.

What a fascinating analysis and it makes a great deal of sense.

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

I hate grinding but if other people want to do it that's fine as long as I still have alternatives. I don't think that people should be rewarded for shortcuts, which in typical MMOs is what grinding amounts to.

Beesting · November 2014

AlnilamE wrote: »

I mean, if all you want to do is PvP, nothing stops you from going to Cyrodiil with your toon the minute you hit level 10. It's just in your mind that you feel you have to be V14 to do it.

.

I tried that on a lvl 10 sorc and could use 3 abilities before my magica ran out, compared to being able to spam impulse 18 times. It was fun but required a bit more thinking and harder choices.

Heishi · November 2014

I agree with this in part. since I just made a comment on another thread something to this effect I'm just going to quote it to save myself writing time.

My recommendation would be that they quit adding new mechanics and features and focus on content and bug fixes. Every new mechanic/feature, no matter how well tested is going to bring new bugs which just compound on top of the bugs they already have. New lighting, justice system, champion system, faceFX, and all this are great but ultimately useless if players just get bored and have to fight as many bugs as they do mobs.

Cadwell's silver and gold should have never been a thing. It extends gameplay of a single character by a lot, but adds nothing to the story. You spend 2/3 or more (considering the time it takes to go through VR vs 1-50) of the game, having nothing to do with the alliance you actually wanted to play in.

I don't know about others, but I would rather have rolled 3 characters 1-50 and went through each of the stories and waited 3-6 months for them to add a new area to each alliance that was bigger than the previous and maybe spanned a VR1-3 or something. Looking over a map, the only areas that seem to be fully explored in ESO are Valenwood and High Rock

OrangeTheCat · November 2014

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I hate grinding but if other people want to do it that's fine as long as I still have alternatives. I don't think that people should be rewarded for shortcuts, which in typical MMOs is what grinding amounts to.

A "short cut" is exactly what is needed because the equivalent of 150 levels worth of questing is a wee bit extreme.

MornaBaine · November 2014

Question: Why does Zenimax seem intent on forcing us into Caldwell's Silver/Gold?

Answer: Because Zenimax is too cheap to do a real zone with real quests for YOUR faction for this.

Elsonso · November 2014

Most responses have focused on XP gains for grinding monsters. I am happy to leave y'all to that line of thought except for one comment. In April, a lot of people were very upset about people, bots actually, farming mobs for experience and loot.

What I wanted to mention was the entitlement statement that the OP made. It is good business to give the player what they want, but that may not necessarily be what they ask for. The job that Zenimax has is to decide how to give the player what they want, which may be different than what they ask for.

A VR14 is something that should be earned by in-game play and it should be neither easy nor trivial to get. It should take time and effort in proportion to the value of the accomplishment. The accomplishment should have meaning that exceeds the value of the journey.

If someone is willing to fork over real-world currency, the accomplishment probably does not have much value. A sum of $50, to me, is much less than the value of a VR14 and is definitely less than the effort I would apply to get one.

Leveling a new character in World of Warcraft is pointless now. The Level 90 boost can be purchased for $60, making it far more expensive for me, in labor plus subscription, to level the old fashioned way. Now, it is true that Level 90 is obsolete after yesterday, but a level 100 is now only worth $60 + 10 levels.

Blizzard has catered to the "what the customer wants" by giving them exactly what they asked for. In the process, I think they have ruined the part of the game that makes an end-game character an accomplishment.

If grinding is what it takes to make a VR14, or equivalent, an actual achievement, then at least there is an achievement. Pulling out the credit card does not make an achievement. It is my sincere hope that Zenimax accountants never convince the developers to sell max level ESO characters in the store.

RinaldoGandolphi · November 2014

nalimoleb14_ESO wrote: »

I've always wondered how agonizing it must be for people who like to level up multiple toons (especially for people who were SOMEHOW able to level up more than one toon to VR14 before this amazing VP to EXP conversation...God bless them) because as interesting and engaging as the quests in ESO are, doing them all two, three, four times over in order to get to VR14 just sounds like the worst kind of hell.

It most certainly is, probably will be for the 1 Alt I have. I am only leveling this Alt because I am forced to, not because I want to.

Zenimax has done nothing but continually swing their nerf bat at the Sorceror Class like they have an Axe to grind. I wrote a very detailed post about it in the Alliance War forum you can check out, but there are former Emperors on that thread that agreed.

I have kept my mouth shut for months while Zeni has continued to beat my class over the head repeatedly with the nerf bat with no end in sight.

Sorcs are continually hit with a nerf bat every patch. We now do pathetic damage, and all we have going for us is a nerfed Bolt Escape.

The next patch they are changing Destro Staff to scale off Spell Damage rather then Weapon Damge, another direct nerf to the Sorc. Nope Surge will not benefit Destro Staffs or Resto Staffs...Sorc won't be viable in Trails...or PVP for that matter

those who say Zenimax will change Surge to effect Spell Damage...I wouldn't count on it, Spell Damage has such a lower soft cap, that Surge will be useless anyways even if they do change it(doubtful they will, Weapon Damage softcap is a good bit higher) This means Sorcs will not be viable healers or damage dealers, and will flat out suck in PVP worse then they do now(Sorcs in PVP only kill players they have a significant skill advantage over) and will be horrid in trials.

So i am now forced to level a class that is viable. Sorcs were viable a few months ago, through all the previous nerfs they were viable. However, now? nope...and it will get worse in the next patch.

Former Emp Ezareth:

"Once again Destruction abilities with Sharpened get more than full penetration, it is only the class magicka abilities themselves which are now extremely weak. Compare the damage output of a sorc using sorc abilities to any physical damage class right now and it will be no contest and I'm not talking about armor disparities."

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/138930/give-me-a-good-reason-to-stick-to-my-sorc/p2

So they nerfed Sharpened Trait for Class Abilities that rely on Spell Damage, but weapon based abilities still get more then full penetration...when they change this next update, our already pathetic damage will just get even worse.

As i see no change in sight to the current trend, continuing playing my Sorc on a regular basis is no longer viable moving forward...im tired of being at an inherent disadvantage in PVP (Still able to go 62-2-49KB the other night) that requires a ton of effort and mistake free play on my part. There is zero margin for error with my class, all the other classes can make mistakes and still win, I can't.

However the "Geniuses" at Zenimax think its perfectly balanced and brilliant to buff Snipe so it:

1. has a shorter cast time
2. longest range ability in game
3. poisons you
4. ranged healing debuff that stacks preventing you from healing

All with the push of 1 button

1 skill mind you..... that requires 7 pieces of Impenetrable Armor, Radiant Magelight, and either Cleanse/Templar Purify to counter...a significant investment of 2 skill slots and 7 crafted armor just to counter 1 skill.

Sorc have had Bolt Escape, and various other skills nerfed into the ground, but its ok for:

-Dragonknights to reflect every projectile in the game

-Dragonknights to have a cheap Talons Root that is spamable, does damage, has a synergy, and has no CC immunity whatsoever, and is dirt cheap.(Compare that to Sorc Encase which costs way more then Talons and does less)

-Dragonknight Talons to regularly stun lock you so you can't get out of it even with a full stamina bar while they flame whip you in the face.

-Templar Blazing Shield in the right hands is way OP

-Annulment nerfed into the ground

- its perfectly ok for Immovable to give you an insane boost to armor, spell resistance and make you immune to stun, root, or any other CC effect in the game...thats perfectly balanced, but god forbid Annulment block a little bit of weapon damage....or give a damage reduction, that just so OP....but Immovable isn't...right....

All of this is ok, but god forbid a Sorc can escape with Bolt Escape, can't have that, so they nerf the skill away.

I mean i could go on, but my point is...As it stands right now, Zenimax does balance like a kid with ADHD does homework...its never consistent, its never logical, it never makes sense.

Whenever they nerf something, they throw the baby out with the bathwater, whenever they buff something, that make it so insanely OP that it literally becomes an "I win button"

when 7 out of 10 players in PVP are running bows now, you just know that screams of balance right?

Right now, i have a zero vote of confidence in Zenimax concerning class balance, they have left the DK OP since launch and have shown no intentions whatsoever of balancing them, all the while they have done nothing but continually nerf the Sorc almost out of existence....and now they are buffing Nightblades, DK, and such even more with their focus on buffing "stamina abilities" all abilities most Sorc don't use, because they abut they nerfed Spell Damage so its a waste to even continue.

So im forced to level an Alt now, I feel sorry for those who will stick to their Sorc and wonder why come next patch they got a massive damage drop. Changing Surge to Spell Damage will not help as Spell Damage soft cap is too low, and they nerfed Spell Damage with the Shapened trait nerf so any abilities that scale off magicka and spell damage have been nerfed hard....yet Destro Staff still gets full pentration...i wonder why? oh..because right now it uses weapon damage, next patch it won't.... the class with no instant direct damage class skills just gets continually nerfed, while DK can just be OP forever.

understand, I don't want an OP build, thats no fun, I do want viable though, and its looking like the Sorc won't be viable for much longer, he is barely viable now.

reften · November 2014

Valencer wrote: »

Grinding is an alternative if you really don't want to do quests. What's the problem?

If the Spell Scar mobs somehow get altered so you can't gain XP way faster there than is intended, you can still grind. It just won't be as fast (nor should it be).

Instead, if you like to PvP, why not ask them to increase the XP gains in Cyrodiil? You know, so you can level at an equal rate to grinding or questing while doing something you actually consider fun. Just a thought.

yeah this one I don't get either. Allow players who love to PvP the ability to quickly level from 10 to VR14 through PvP only.

Let us play how we want

Level by grind, PvP, questing solo or group, etc.