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Reflective Scales Will you ever fix it?
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Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AsweetRoll wrote: »Great, another reflect thread. To clear things up
•Anything that flies through the air is a projectile. If it does not fly through the air, it is not a projectile.
•Also I believe only one of the tri attacks from crushing shock is reflected but I could be wrong, I know it used to be this way.
This is the DKs defense spell, every class has it and every class needs it.
DK= Reflect and Cinder
Templar= blazing shield, blinding flashes
NB= shadow image, sap essence
Sorc= Streak, negate
It's all about using the right spec and playing well. The people I see most whine about reflect are sorcs which only have one projectile ability and if they play smart they shouldn't have a problem with DK. Templar has 2 projectiles back can use theor single target reflect which will reflect it back at DK and NB has cripple and funnel health which they also have to use wisely. People whining about the skill on the thread need to l2P.
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
If you guessed negate is not like the others,
Then you're absolutely...right!
For parity, shorten negate to 4sec and convert it from an ultimate to a spell. Then l2p is becomes appropriate.
My apologies to Sesame Street for my poor singing voice.1 -
Ironfyre✭I never once claimed crystal frags should not be reflected, but rather everything else was under powered for sorcs and the ONE skill they had using a destro was being reflected though it is ONLY light and not a projectile. Some DK's need to learn it is ok for skills to be fixed :P
I mentioned Crystal Frags because it is a Sorcerers only somewhat spammable (altough noone in their right mind would do so, because of the cast time) and meaningful single target dps spell. Mages Fury obviously is an executioner and does little damage to targets above 20% HP - this is why Sorcs are bound to either play the who lasts longer game with streak, S/S and curse, or fall back to non class-specific skills such as Force Shock.Wreuntzylla wrote: »One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong, ...
I agree with this.
I was actually searching for the </sarcasm> when i saw the comparison between reflective scales + cinderstorm and a movement/stun skill with increasing cost spamming restriction + a high cost ultimate.EU|DC - Custodian, Sorcerer | A'shen Ironfyre, Dragonknight0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yea i didnt even bother to touch that post about negate as a defensive.....clearly the guy himself needs to L2P as using an ultimate for a defensive when comparing everything like he did is just ludicrous. With that being said, negate IS an awesome ultimate and it IS on my load out. If it was a spell, I would for sure still have it
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Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭"It's all about using the right spec and playing well. The people I see most whine about reflect are sorcs which only have one projectile ability and if they play smart they shouldn't have a problem with DK. Templar has 2 projectiles back can use theor single target reflect which will reflect it back at DK and NB has cripple and funnel health which they also have to use wisely. People whining about the skill on the thread need to l2P."
Also that part, sorcs are LACK LUSTER in ANY form of good dps aside from crystal shard and faulty pets, and panzy AoE spells. So to say what he said above, is rather ignorant of how GIMPED the sorc class is. Clearly he doesnt want what is broke to be fixed.0 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Does it reflect zombie vomit? It should, you know.Please stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!3 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭I never once claimed crystal frags should not be reflected, but rather everything else was under powered for sorcs and the ONE skill they had using a destro was being reflected though it is ONLY light and not a projectile. Some DK's need to learn it is ok for skills to be fixed :P
I mentioned Crystal Frags because it is a Sorcerers only somewhat spammable (altough noone in their right mind would do so, because of the cast time) and meaningful single target dps spell. Mages Fury obviously is an executioner and does little damage to targets above 20% HP - this is why Sorcs are bound to either play the who lasts longer game with streak, S/S and curse, or fall back to non class-specific skills such as Force Shock.Wreuntzylla wrote: »One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong, ...
I agree with this.
I was actually searching for the </sarcasm> when i saw the comparison between reflective scales + cinderstorm and a movement/stun skill with increasing cost spamming restriction + a high cost ultimate.
To be clear, I was not aiming that mentioning crystal frags comment at you. It was a over all statement With cyrodils light 5 piece, the cast time becomes your friend as it reduces incoming damage by 25% which is a HUGE chunk of damage. I have thought out my sorc build and gear, stats etc etc for a LONG time.
Nothing is viable when it comes to pvp. Unless you are literally ganking lowbies who suck or people who dont use cookie cutter. Or you use cookie cutter gear. No thinking outside the box. or you just wait for others to do all the damage then come in with an execute and hope it procs.
I only brought up RS because it is literally shutting down an entire class whos damage is all based around ONE play style currently. Anything aside from that one play style is just utter BS.
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Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭Depending on what you do with it, even a goat can be turned into a projectile :P
Anyways, i like the fact that DKs can reflect arrows, though i wish defensive posture could do the same.
But i totally get the OP's point, crushing shock doesn't look like a projectile at all, yet it is considered one. It's an instant beam of energy not a tennisball.
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yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is something to think about though:
While the definition of a projectile and what can and can't be reflected based on a skill's tooltip can be objectively discussed, the saying an 'entire class' is 'gimped' against DK because of RS is faulty logic.
The particular crushing shock build that you choose to use the sorc for may be ineffective against RS using DK's, but that doesn't mean that there is absolutely NO way for you to win against them.
The problem is you want to be unique and have a build that you want, which I get, but you want a staff/light armor sorc build that can easily beat a class that is specifically built to counter the build you want.
The developers obviously feel that crushing shock is a projectile, as the skill is reflected by RS. Just because a player feels that their definition of a projectile is 'wrong' doesn't make the skill 'broken'
You can easily swap to 1h&S and kill them, you can get into 2h and kill them, you can go DW and get laughed at by them, but there are VIABLE options for you, they just are not in the exact specification that you want.
If I could go back in time and smack the person who decided "Play as you want" was a good slogan I really would like to.
TL:DR You want a projectile based build to easily kill a projectile reflect based build and that doesn't make sense.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.2 -
Ironfyre✭TL:DR You want a projectile based build to easily kill a projectile reflect based build and that doesn't make sense.
I can see your arguments there, but I don't think thats what neither the OP nor the supporters of this thread (such as me) are aiming for.
I, for one, seek consistency. Assuming it is intended that Force Shock and its morphs are considered a projectile, what is that based on? It certainly can't be the animation, as the Resto staff's light/heavy attack is very similar, and is not considered a projectile.
So if animation is out of the way, what is it based upon? It neither fits to the real world definition of a projectile, as I previously stated.
Consistency is one of the reasons why reflective scales outshines every single other defensive (reflective) ability in the game - and, is that intended aswell?
Edited by Ironfyre on November 13, 2014 5:50PMEU|DC - Custodian, Sorcerer | A'shen Ironfyre, Dragonknight3 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is something to think about though:
While the definition of a projectile and what can and can't be reflected based on a skill's tooltip can be objectively discussed, the saying an 'entire class' is 'gimped' against DK because of RS is faulty logic.
The particular crushing shock build that you choose to use the sorc for may be ineffective against RS using DK's, but that doesn't mean that there is absolutely NO way for you to win against them.
The problem is you want to be unique and have a build that you want, which I get, but you want a staff/light armor sorc build that can easily beat a class that is specifically built to counter the build you want.
The developers obviously feel that crushing shock is a projectile, as the skill is reflected by RS. Just because a player feels that their definition of a projectile is 'wrong' doesn't make the skill 'broken'
You can easily swap to 1h&S and kill them, you can get into 2h and kill them, you can go DW and get laughed at by them, but there are VIABLE options for you, they just are not in the exact specification that you want.
If I could go back in time and smack the person who decided "Play as you want" was a good slogan I really would like to.
TL:DR You want a projectile based build to easily kill a projectile reflect based build and that doesn't make sense.
Wow another person who DID NOT read my comments....I don't want a projectile build....I DONT want to play melee....hell I don't want to be able to Insta kill the over used DK. I want things to make sense... I want Dot to not be such a pu55y concept lol that is my ideal build. I'm not so ignorant to beg for a projectile build to dominate a reflect build. I swear most of these players can't read lol. If they make Dot better and fix volatile familiar to where it deals damage again then I wouldn't need to use the basic sorc build to fight. Especially since crushing shock is being reflected which is why I started this thread. Why is this such a hard concept for most to understand?Edited by Gorthax on November 13, 2014 5:56PM0 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you don't want to be melee and you don't want a projectile build then what else is left?
You want them to make the build you want to use viable against a build that its not, that is the overrunning theme here.
The game should change because the choices you made do not facilitate beating a certain choice range of other people.
I am all for balance though and if there are 'unfair' abilities that have no counter and make a certain class overpowered, ACTUALLY overpowered, then they should be brought down.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.1 -
bosmern_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seriously, how does it still reflect non projectile spells? @ZOS_AJ @ZOS_PaulSage Will it ever work properly, or will it always shut down a good good chunk of spells/skills?
I'm guessing you're talking about how reflective scales reflect crushing shock? Well its because the fire and lightning attacks in crushing shock count as a projectile and those get reflected back.
~Thallen~0 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »"A projectile is any object that once projected or dropped continues in motion by its own inertia and is influenced only by the downward force of gravity. By definition, a projectile has a single force that acts upon it - the force of gravity."
Quote source is www.physicsclassroom.com.
Now the only debate is magical energy an "object" and is it affected by gravity?
L2P, games do not follow the rules of physics! *end sarcasm*
L2P? what has that to do with knowing how to play or not.
And I guess the rules are only ok if they work in your favor!
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AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭AsweetRoll wrote: »Great, another reflect thread. To clear things up
•Anything that flies through the air is a projectile. If it does not fly through the air, it is not a projectile.
This is not how projectiles are defined. One would have to define "fly" as something where the main force acting is, in our case, gravity, which in some cases applies, in most however, not. Im not even going to mention the fact that you said fly through the "air".
Take a bird for example, as long as its not flapping its wings, its acting as a projectile because its following a projectile motion. As soon as it does flap its wings, its no longer a projectile by definition. In both cases the bird is flying.
Now, you could argue that rockets are considered projectiles even though they are self propelled, and I would have to say that is only the case if they follow a projectile motion, and then we could probably argue about many other things.
Anyway I'm drifting off: beams of light, just like magic beams or rays as one would assume, do not follow a projectile motion(* ).
As there is no definition in the description of a skill wether and how its affected by gravity or not, or if it follows a projectile motion, so the only way we can assume wether a skill is a projectile or not is through its animation.
In our cases:
Crystal Fragment: magically formed crystals, which (most likely) are going to have a specific mass, thus affected by gravity -> projectile. Can be reflected? Yes, working as intended. Now you could argue that one morph follows a projectile motion while the other doesn't, but we'll let the DKs have that one, shall we?
Force Shock (and its morphs): magical beam of light or energy (the effects are fire, lightning and frost damage, which itself makes little sense in real world physics). The animation can show it bending in all directions, meaning it is not affected by gravity nor does it follow a projectile motion -> not a projectile. Should not be reflected.
(* ) Now mind you, in fact gravity, or better, gravitational mass, DOES affect light in a certain way, according to Einsteins special relativity. You can read up on detail about that, overly simplified though: gravity bending space, light still moves straight -> looks bent.
Now, I doubt this fact changes the definition of projectiles in our case though, because if we go that much into detail we could see that the definition of a projectile itself is flawed and not perfectly viable to define skills (especially if a undefined component such as magic comes into play).
TLDR: Force shock should not be reflected, because of science.
The laws of physics do not have to apply to magic - this is why the correct definition of wether something is a projectile or not, in the end, is up to the game designers - like everything else.
TLDR_TLDR: They gon' do whatevs they feel like works for them anways. Meanwhile, here's a picture of a goat. A goat is not a projectile.
Well, most of the time that is.
you are my new favorite person on these forums someone who finally gets I am not calling for a nerf, but a relook at their design philosophy for what is declared projectile.....
I never once claimed crystal frags should not be reflected, but rather everything else was under powered for sorcs and the ONE skill they had using a destro was being reflected though it is ONLY light and not a projectile. Some DK's need to learn it is ok for skills to be fixed :P
A goat could be used as a projectile or a missile, and if it were it should be reflect-able.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yea that's what I am getting here since no one seems to understand what I am saying lol I'm not trying to make it so I can be the all powerful whatever. I'm simply asking for clarification to if this is intended and if it isn't will it get fixed. I don't play melee and currently that ONE skill shuts down the entire sorc. Crushing shock and volatile familiar were the only things able to do damage. Crushing shock is being reflected and volatile familiar is doing ZERO damage. I Prefer DoT. Sadly DoT is so poorly implemented it is not viable. Why is this sooooo hard for people to understand that all I am asking for is clarification on all of this.
All I want to know is if it is intended for sorcs to only be support in pvp UNLESS you play sorc melee. The only reason I brought up RS is because it currently shuts down the only option to do damage to a floppy bird DK. So if anyone has any idea as to how sorcs combat this OTHER THAN THE OBVIOUS DRAWN OUT RESOURCE BATTLE, I am all ears. Until then, please Please stop trying to twist what I asking0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭Forgot curse, but that is easily stopped and the stamina wasted to stop it is easily regenerated via GDB.0 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No one is twisting what you are asking.
You want the ability to kill a Dragonknight that bases their build on Reflective Scales with a light armor wearing, magic using Sorc.
Everything else is fluff and conjecture, this is the root. And you have made multiple threads and comments on this subject for months
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/search?Page=p2&Search=reflective+scales+++crushing+shock
There are 10 pages of threads about crushing shock and reflective scales, not one of which has been commented on by any green circles. This obviously means working as intended and the build you choose to stick with will not be able to do what you want it to.
TLDR: If you see big flapping wings, you hit it with a stick not a rock.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.1 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭ROFL! I have not been talking about this for months there bud and I am NOT asking to kill flappy bird DK's......,I am asking WHY is it like this when it is NOT a projectile, and I am wondering if this is intended. Also, sure a green circle hasnt commented on most of this stuff. The only time they comment is when they need to close a thread, someone talks about their dog, or a post reaches over 1k comments and starts going hay wire and they have to remind people to be civil. So please, take that *** some where else.
AGAIN! I am NOT asking to kill DK's. Me mentioning everything else is in response to people saying it IS possible to get around and kill them. yet go ahead, tell me what it is I am saying and how it is all fluff. I greatly appreciate it.
*edit for yodased saying I have been talking about it for months*
I just recently brought my sorc into pvp in the last 2 weeks, and JUST noticed it is being reflected. So again, thanks for pulling *** out your a55 about me commenting and making post for months.
*done editing*
*edit number 2 for clarification*
The only reason I even brought up DK is because DK make up damn near ALL of the population in pvp, which has led me to the why is it being reflected topic.
*done editing*Edited by Gorthax on November 13, 2014 6:58PM0 -
SRIBES✭✭✭✭✭AsweetRoll wrote: »Great, another reflect thread. To clear things up
•Anything that flies through the air is a projectile. If it does not fly through the air, it is not a projectile.
Restoration staff heavy attack burrows it's way to the target under the ground, i guess?
Restoration heavy attacks are a channel?0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What? LMFAO! Defensive spells? You are joking right? The only "defensive" spell that nightblades get is Blur and it's morphs which are not even in the same league as anything DKs get. You L2P.AsweetRoll wrote: »This is the DKs defense spell, every class has it and every class needs it.
DK= Reflect and Cinder
Templar= blazing shield, blinding flashes
NB= shadow image, sap essence
Sorc= Streak, negate
*Edit
Shadow Cloak might also count as defensive, but it's a very unreliable spell, and again no where close to what Reflective Scale can do.Edited by eventide03b14a_ESO on November 13, 2014 7:02PM:trollin:0 -
Leeric✭✭✭✭He's not asking for herNo one is twisting what you are asking.
You want the ability to kill a Dragonknight that bases their build on Reflective Scales with a light armor wearing, magic using Sorc.
Everything else is fluff and conjecture, this is the root. And you have made multiple threads and comments on this subject for months
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/search?Page=p2&Search=reflective+scales+++crushing+shock
There are 10 pages of threads about crushing shock and reflective scales, not one of which has been commented on by any green circles. This obviously means working as intended and the build you choose to stick with will not be able to do what you want it to.
TLDR: If you see big flapping wings, you hit it with a stick not a rock.
No, he asking for abilities to make sense. Just how they are changing the stats to reflect the commonsense approach he wants the same for abilities. How long was mages wrath reflecting when it shouldn't have been? Did you toss out L2P on that one too? Everyone complained about bolt escape, that got nerfed, they complained about damage from stealth that got nerfed. So that was all those people needing to L2P right? Sounds like you guys just don't want DKs fixed is what it sounds like.0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭@yodased
this is for you buddy oh pal.
http://i.imgur.com/kKoCR8b.jpg
those are the topics I MYSELF have created since JUNE! But thanks anything else you want to add 0 -
SRIBES✭✭✭✭✭Zos defined on ESO weekly a projectile is something that flies through the air.
(funnel health, lethal arrow, frags, dark flare, vampires bane, stone fist, etc.) Someone help me understand why players do not have enough skill so they quote me and rant on a thread of how reflect needs to be nerfed to the ground instead of taking the time to practice and make a build strong enough to "beat" reflect. It is a great ability but if it gets nerfed i'm expecting a blazing shield and sap essence thread next.
Edited by SRIBES on November 13, 2014 7:04PM0 -
Leeric✭✭✭✭AsweetRoll wrote: »Zos defined on ESO weekly a projectile is something that flies through the air.
(funnel health, lethal arrow, frags, dark flare, vampires bane, stone fist, etc.) Someone help me understand why players do not have enough skill so they quote me and rant on a thread of how reflect needs to be nerfed to the ground instead of taking the time to practice and make a build strong enough to "beat" reflect. It is a great ability but if it gets nerfed i'm expecting a blazing shield and sap essence thread next.
lol ya, a DK main who even brags about it in their sig. Your opinion couldn't possibly be slanted.0 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is nothing to 'fix' and I truly don't care if crushing shock is reflected or not reflected. It literally makes 0 difference to me. The reason I even comment at all is because of the reasons given for the skill to be 'fixed'
So let's put it to the test, if green circle comes in this thread and says hey guys crushing shock IS a projectile hence why the skill reflects it, what then?
IF you get your 'clarification' on the semantics of this issue, you will accept it and move on or you will continue the 'cause' of getting Reflective scales changed?
This is the point, if all you want is 'clarification' then lack of answering direct questions multiple time is clarification in and of itself.
Lets just change the tooltip to 'ranged' attacks and move on. You expect me to believe that this entire issue is stemming from word choice? Come on, its obvious that the build being played is not able to kill the build they want to kill.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.1 -
Leeric✭✭✭✭It might to them be considered a projectile he's asking why is it considered a projectile and providing arguments based on that. Did you see them commenting on thread complaining about bolt escape and the damage from stealth? I didn't, until they decided to change it. SO their goes that popo argument of yours.Edited by Leeric on November 13, 2014 7:16PM0
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Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭if a green circle comes in and says it IS a projectile, I will HAPPILY accept that answer. HOWEVER! Mages wrath was reflecting over and over again and THAT was "flying through the air" but going from top to bottom. That wasnt working as intended. See where I am coming from? I dont want it to be nerfed.....I NEVER SAID NERF IT! I said FIX crushing shock. THATS what I want IF it is indeed NOT working as intended against RS.
It literally was THAT simple. Everything else I have stated was spun off of all the other comments. I would LOVE to see someone make a build that can stand toe to toe with a LA/DK/RS spammer. Do that and I will forever shut up about it. Like I just said if a GC comes in and says it is indeed suppose to be this way, I will also shut up about it. Until then, Sorcs are literally under powered and have little to no good dps output in pvp. That is an entirely different topic though and NOT what this thread was about.
Sadly it turned into that which also turned into a L2P thread. this community is just so F'ed it isnt even funny. DK hated the fact sorcs could escape and look what happened.0 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭The best part is, sorc isnt even my main lol it is a fire mage DK NON cookie cutter build. Why? Because I have ALWAYS played dark elf fire mages in every elder scrolls game.0
