Since I am not allowed to play my way.... build help

Inordinate · November 2014

OK, the character deletion limit (new since I've come back) is seriously damaging my ability to play the game, I'm going to need help. Often.

So get used to these threads

Normally, I would create characters, play them for 5 levels or so to see if I liked it, then delete and try something else until I get it just right, but that's not possible.

This week's project is nightblade; I've found what I think is a decent synergy between breton, nightblade, and bow, that I would like to turn into a rear echelon dps/healer.

Current setup:

Light armor
Bow
Venom Arrow I
Impale I
Volley IV
Funnel Health I
Shadow Cloak IV (just for getting experience in the skill line, although I am having a problem with this)

Questions:

What secondary weapon (when I get that far)?
Is funnel health enough to heal a group?
If not, are there any other group heals in nightblade?

Prokonto · November 2014

first of all best bow combo to me will be bow+wood elf+Nb as Welf got all racials oriented around stamina bow & stealth. next thing is that u should get some med armor on u for weap crit & stam max/regen & stealth ofc. get used to shadow cloak(Shadowy Disguise) combo with heavies+venom arrow/snipe weaving as it give u 100% crit + allow u get some more range from u target. standard sec weap combo with bow is dw as it use & accumulate critrate even more but u could go for healing staff for survivalibity or if u wanna go for full heal is must as Nb dont have many class heal options which are really usefull esp compared to templar heal tree.

ps: bow to me is single target spike weap. if u wanna do serious aoe go for destro staff as its not possible to spam aoe & block/dodge roll when need utilising only one resource pool... it will be simply too short for that all. try run solo some Vr public dungeon that way

Inordinate · November 2014

OK, in other words I have been fooled by what is said versus how the game actually works once again.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Classes

This lists healer as a possible nb role, but they only get one heal? So they are no more a healing class than a dk using a resto staff.

I went breton for light armor, so I would be magicka heavy for heals and dps, only use stamina for spell interrupts and AoE, and stay in the back of a group plinking away with the bow, but that obviously isn't going to work.

Back to the drawing board, and waiting on a character deletion to recharge....

guybrushtb16_ESO · November 2014

First of all, forget about the experience gain passives each race gets, they are practically useless, the other racials are what differentiates the races. That being said, breton is a good choice for a nightblade, provided you want to be a caster, which means light armor and magicka skills. In general, magicka and stamina don't mix, you either want light armor + magicka skills or medium armor + stamina skills for the bulk of your abilities.

This is mainly because of two things: 1. the damage you do with each ability scales with the total pool of the resource it uses and 2. cost reduction and regeneration of your resources are very important, and you can't get them for both.The default choice for weapons for magicka builds is desto/restostaff right now.

As a nightblade, you can be a decent healer for most of the content in the game actually, but you will always be kind of an offensive hybrid. Your biggest advantage as a healer is not your actual healing skills, but the almost unlimited magicka from siphoning attacks. With this, you can heal by spamming funnel health, sap essence and resto staff skills, and you also get one of the best ultimates in the game with veil of blades, which both deals great aoe damage and protects your party.

Inordinate · November 2014

OK, that sounds like it will save this character for something, but that's still not what I am looking for (i.e. thanks for the help! But I need some more

)

What I want to be able to do is sit behind the main combatants in a group healing enough to keep them alive but also dealing some kind of noticeable dps with the same weapon in hand, and from what I can see, Templar is the only option for that.

Is destro templar viable? If so, what race, secondary weapon, etc?

Valymer · November 2014

Inordinate wrote: »

OK, that sounds like it will save this character for something, but that's still not what I am looking for (i.e. thanks for the help! But I need some more )

What I want to be able to do is sit behind the main combatants in a group healing enough to keep them alive but also dealing some kind of noticeable dps with the same weapon in hand, and from what I can see, Templar is the only option for that.

Is destro templar viable? If so, what race, secondary weapon, etc?

Spamming resto staff heavy attack is noticeable single-target DPS, and it gives you back magicka as well. You wouldn't have to switch weapons and you could theoretically do that with any class

Inordinate · November 2014

OK, destro templar is the single weakest character that I have ever tried to play, and that's saying something. It took me 5 tries to beat the child of bones to get out of coldharbour, because my DPS was so abysmal, and with everything running off magicka, when it runs out, I'm hosed.

Rosveen · November 2014

If you're judging a build's potential by its performance in the tutorial, you're doing it horribly wrong.

I don't know a lot about templars, I've only just created one. But I have a destro/resto nightblade and it's doing wonderfully. I have not tried running with resto staff on both bars, but I'm sure it would work as a hybrid build. In fact, both of our class heals are actually heal/damage: Funnel Health and Sap Essence. They generate a ton of ultimate so you can spam Veil of Blades. You also have great resource management in Siphoning Attacks, but because of the damage reduction you need to be careful when you use it.

And no, using only class skills as the main healer isn't necessarily a good idea and this goes for any class: even as a templar you want the cheap HoT from resto staff, not to mention its nice passives. But if you're doing easier content or want to off-heal, then I guess templar's burst heals are sufficient. Still, Combat Prayer from resto is a good DPS boost for the whole group.

Inordinate wrote: »

OK, in other words I have been fooled by what is said versus how the game actually works once again.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Classes

This table sucks.

Inordinate · November 2014

Rosveen wrote: »

And no, using only class skills as the main healer isn't necessarily a good idea and this goes for any class:

In other words, what I want to do is not viable at all.

Well, thanks

Rosveen · November 2014

Inordinate wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

And no, using only class skills as the main healer isn't necessarily a good idea and this goes for any class:

In other words, what I want to do is not viable at all.

Well, thanks

Why not? Is it because you don't want to use a resto staff? A templar can do it, it just isn't the optimal choice for every situation. Since you want to stay ranged, you'd have to use a bow - it's the only stamina option and you need to conserve magicka for heals.

Why are you so averse to weapon swap anyway?

Inordinate · November 2014

Rosveen wrote: »

Why are you so averse to weapon swap anyway?

Because it takes 30+ seconds, and that's not acceptable in the middle of a fight.

Inordinate · November 2014

Rosveen wrote: »

Why not? Is it because you don't want to use a resto staff? A templar can do it, it just isn't the optimal choice for every situation. Since you want to stay ranged, you'd have to use a bow - it's the only stamina option and you need to conserve magicka for heals.

The problem with resto staff is the lackof AoE dps. The problem with Templar is the lack of dps, period, although I'm not having much better luck in that arena with a destro staff sorc $:\$

I'll play around with a bosmer bowplar and see what I can do, but it just seems like you are forced to pick one thing and stick to it.

guybrushtb16_ESO · November 2014

Inordinate wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Why are you so averse to weapon swap anyway?

Because it takes 30+ seconds, and that's not acceptable in the middle of a fight.

You do realize that you unlock the ability to instantly swap between 2 weapons with their own skillbar at level 15, right?

Inordinate · November 2014

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Inordinate wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Why are you so averse to weapon swap anyway?

Because it takes 30+ seconds, and that's not acceptable in the middle of a fight.

You do realize that you unlock the ability to instantly swap between 2 weapons with their own skillbar at level 15, right?

Instantly?! What game are you playing?

Rosveen · November 2014

Inordinate wrote: »

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Inordinate wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Why are you so averse to weapon swap anyway?

Because it takes 30+ seconds, and that's not acceptable in the middle of a fight.

You do realize that you unlock the ability to instantly swap between 2 weapons with their own skillbar at level 15, right?

Instantly?! What game are you playing?

A better question would be: what kind of abysmal internet connection do you have?

Workerdroid7 · November 2014

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

Inordinate wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Why are you so averse to weapon swap anyway?

Because it takes 30+ seconds, and that's not acceptable in the middle of a fight.

You do realize that you unlock the ability to instantly swap between 2 weapons with their own skillbar at level 15, right?

I was completely puzzled by the 30 second comment... swopping weapons (and bars) is pretty instant once you get to level 15.

curlyqloub14_ESO · November 2014

Inordinate wrote: »

The problem with resto staff is the lackof AoE dps. The problem with Templar is the lack of dps, period, although I'm not having much better luck in that arena with a destro staff sorc $:\$

Between this comment and the fact that you were clearly unaware that weapon/skill swapping is unlocked at level 15, I'd say what you need to do is put a bit more time into characters before trashing them for something new. If you are only playing to level 5, you are really not seeing much of any class or weapon capabilities.

Sorc + Destro staff is quite possibly the some of the best dps in the game. So if you aren't "having much luck" with that class/wep combo for DPS, you are definitely missing something.

I'd recommend you take some more time to understand the class skills and mechanics of the game before giving up on stuff. You mentioned that you have recently "come back" ... welcome back. I wonder, when was the last time you played? If it was early on during beta or when the game first came out, much has changed since then. You might want to check out the Patch Notes, or some other websites besides the one with that table that you linked - that particular site is ok, but much of it is outdated.

As for weapon swapping - it is still a bit laggy sometimes (an ongoing complaint many have, especially in PvP), but yeah, you can swap an entirely different set of weapon and skills at level 15 - and it definitely doesn't take 30 seconds. So your goal of wanting to heal and dps is totally doable. If your current setup is bow, your secondary weapon would be resto staff for heals. Funnel health alone will not be enough to group heal - that's where the resto staff would come in.

Regardless of what you pick, I'll reiterate - take more time to understand the skills you choose and their morphs, as well as the passives. If you only play to level 5, you are just barely scratching the surface of any skill...you'll never see the real potential of a class or weapon that way.

Edit: If you are using bow as your primary DPS, I'd also recommend you use at least a couple pieces of medium armor mixed in with your light. Bow is all stamina, and med armor is best for that. Even if you decide in the long run to go all light, it's nice to have the other armors leveled up a bit (just in case you want to switch in the future), and it's way easier to level them up early on.

Vyle_Byte · November 2014

I would definitely have to agree with above posters.

You cant judge any sort of skill/class abilities at level 3, including DPS, which is where you are when you come out of the 'tutorial coldharbor', thats just silly.

Play a character a while, you have to give it a chance. Nothing is going to be awesome in extremely low levels, you cant even swap weapons until level 15 and though sometimes theres a little lag, its definitely not 30 seconds.

Shinra · November 2014

Rosveen wrote: »

Inordinate wrote: »

OK, in other words I have been fooled by what is said versus how the game actually works once again.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Classes

This table sucks.

Let's fix the table first then, right?

Nightblade: DD
Dragonknight: Tank or DD
Sorcerer: Tank or DD
Templar: Tank or Healer

^^those are the things that are pretty easy to play with. Additionally, Sorcerers and Nightblades are useful as off-heals in AA and Hel Ra.

Healing in difficult 4-player dungeons isn't impossible for a Nightblade or Sorcerer (or even Dragonknight, probably) But the amount of skill and knowledge about the dungeon and boss mechanics needed by both the group and the healer himself isn't really suited for casual players who only play a few hours per week.

Next, about hybrid builds, like the DPS-heal you want to do. That's not gonna work, or at least it won't be useful. Why? Because the main healer in veteran dungeons (the new, thougher versions since tuesday) needs every bit of mana to keep the health of the group up. Waste even a drop of mana for DPS, and you will risk whiping your whole group. Even as a templar healer who are the best healers in the game.

Next about DPS doing healing at the same time. Wasting slot space for healing, when it could increase either single target or AoE damage, is not only a waste, but if it would mean that adds which deal quite a lot of damage or a tough boss will survive longer, it could, as well, mean the end of your group.

Let the tank focus on tanking, it's a tough job and not something to do half-hearted.
Let the healer focus on healing, it's a tough job and not something to do half-hearted.
And let the DD focus on his DPS (and his own survival) because that is a tough job as well and isn't something to to half-hearted either.

Hybrid builds are viable for Solo playing, but not for groups. Only when you feel save with what you are doing, you should think about other options for special situations.

Well, a group with something like that would may still work:

Dragonknight, full tank
Sorcerer, full DPS
Nightblade hybrid, DPS and HoTs (Heal over time)
Templar hybrid, DPS and instant heal (Breath of Life)

But you won't be able to find a group of randoms to play like that, and when you are with a guild or a group of friends you would still need some skill and good teamplay to be able to pull it off.

Thudunblundur · November 2014

Sap Essence is the only real NB Heal rather than HoT, I think (it's not in my build atm, so not entirely certain I'm remembering correctly). But with it and Funnel Health you can be quite effective. However, you need to be closer to the action than it sounds as though you want to be.

Shinra · November 2014

Thudunblundur wrote: »

Sap Essence is the only real NB Heal rather than HoT, I think (it's not in my build atm, so not entirely certain I'm remembering correctly). But with it and Funnel Health you can be quite effective. However, you need to be closer to the action than it sounds as though you want to be.

quite effective

That's true. He can be quite effective. The problem is that there will be many really tough dungeons wating for you, where "quite effective" won't be enough.

Additionally dungeons have gotten tougher with 1.5, and every dungeon has the ability to kick your ass now if you aren't concentrated enough.

xaraan · November 2014

There are a lot more variations in builds than people think, so don't let cookie cutter recommendations fool you.

Bow wise - just remember if you have a character built on stamina/weapon damage that your actual nightblade skills that do damage will not do as much as they would if they were magicka based. Even impale - with the 300% bonus damage at low health, can give a lower dps than just continuing bow attacks if your weapon damage is high enough. Usually on my stamina bow nb build I often only run funnel health to keep that HoT going and siphon strikes, the rest are bow abilities.

Which brings me to siphon strikes - this is what sets the NB apart from other classes IMO. Not saying it has to be used, but it can be used to great effect in a variety of ways. (It's why I prefer my NB tank over my DK)

But it's also one of the reasons NB is considered a good healer - always having mana to heal can make you pretty valuable. Sure you get magicka back from heavy attacks with resto, but you don't always have time so being able to light attack and get it back as well helps a lot and adds to it, or just get even more back with heavy attacks.

Now, Sap is an ok heal, but not really the same for a healer. If the group healer is spending their magicka on sap to heal instead of using a resto power it's going to hurt the group b/c it won't heal as much as just using resto abilities. One of the morphs of funnel health allows you to put a HoT on a couple of party members. Also Veil of Blades has damage mitigation (I like it more than the heal version actually) and Soul Tether offers a heal synergy to an ally.

So with that being said, when I run heals on my NBs I'd stick with resto staff. Mainly making use of Siphon Strikes to keep mana up. Combat Prayer and Healing Springs can make a good combo (though def not the only ones from resto) for keeping constant heals and having a big heal handy. If you are going to play a healer I'd also recommend leveling Alliance War and making use of Purge and Barrier (especially Barrier). I don't think any other healer class can compete with templar healer in some situations, but in the end, a healer that always has mana handy to heal with can be pretty valuable.

Hypertionb14_ESO · November 2014

NB is idea for DPS and can be a decent dodge based tank.

As Stam build like you are commenting on in the start, just focus on your bow and with gear and later unlocked skills you can be one of the better DPS in the game. i do suggest you level Dual Wield too, as the AOE Steel Tornado is currently the most wonderful AOE for content in the game.

Shunravi · November 2014

Shinra wrote: »

Thudunblundur wrote: »

Sap Essence is the only real NB Heal rather than HoT, I think (it's not in my build atm, so not entirely certain I'm remembering correctly). But with it and Funnel Health you can be quite effective. However, you need to be closer to the action than it sounds as though you want to be.

quite effective

That's true. He can be quite effective. The problem is that there will be many really tough dungeons wating for you, where "quite effective" won't be enough.

Additionally dungeons have gotten tougher with 1.5, and every dungeon has the ability to kick your ass now if you aren't concentrated enough.

I agree. However, I ran WS last night (scaled to v12) with a v4 Dk tank, and a v5 sorc healer. The other v14 dps who was with us had serious connection problems and would dc frequently for long periods. (We didn't replace him, because that's just not how we do things.)

I can honestly say that sap essence and funnel health played a big part in the group staying alive and beating the instance. That and the veils I was dropping every few seconds because of sap and funnel.

But to the op; you should really spend more time before scrapping a character. Some builds do not come into their own until much later, especially after lvl 15. You never know what you might end up liking.

Cuyler · November 2014

Shinra wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Inordinate wrote: »

OK, in other words I have been fooled by what is said versus how the game actually works once again.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Classes

This table sucks.

Let's fix the table first then, right?

Nightblade: DD
Dragonknight: Tank or DD
Sorcerer: Tank or DD
Templar: Tank or Healer

^^those are the things that are pretty easy to play with. Additionally, Sorcerers and Nightblades are useful as off-heals in AA and Hel Ra.

Healing in difficult 4-player dungeons isn't impossible for a Nightblade or Sorcerer (or even Dragonknight, probably) But the amount of skill and knowledge about the dungeon and boss mechanics needed by both the group and the healer himself isn't really suited for casual players who only play a few hours per week.

Next, about hybrid builds, like the DPS-heal you want to do. That's not gonna work, or at least it won't be useful. Why? Because the main healer in veteran dungeons (the new, thougher versions since tuesday) needs every bit of mana to keep the health of the group up. Waste even a drop of mana for DPS, and you will risk whiping your whole group. Even as a templar healer who are the best healers in the game.

Next about DPS doing healing at the same time. Wasting slot space for healing, when it could increase either single target or AoE damage, is not only a waste, but if it would mean that adds which deal quite a lot of damage or a tough boss will survive longer, it could, as well, mean the end of your group.

Let the tank focus on tanking, it's a tough job and not something to do half-hearted.
Let the healer focus on healing, it's a tough job and not something to do half-hearted.
And let the DD focus on his DPS (and his own survival) because that is a tough job as well and isn't something to to half-hearted either.

Hybrid builds are viable for Solo playing, but not for groups. Only when you feel save with what you are doing, you should think about other options for special situations.

Well, a group with something like that would may still work:

Dragonknight, full tank
Sorcerer, full DPS
Nightblade hybrid, DPS and HoTs (Heal over time)
Templar hybrid, DPS and instant heal (Breath of Life)

But you won't be able to find a group of randoms to play like that, and when you are with a guild or a group of friends you would still need some skill and good teamplay to be able to pull it off.

We have a winner! Everything @Shinra points out here is what you can expect to see in endgame.

All I would add is that if you want to be a healer and not bash your head against a wall to get a group at v14 you will want to be Templar. The Resto staff doesn't offer any "smart heals" only AOE heals. This brings me to my other point.

In vet dungeons there are only a few situations when a group can stack nicely and let you place a Grand Healing AOE on them. More often than not the group is roll dodging or running away from some boss mechanic, the healer included. "sits in the back" simply won't work and when everyone is spread out you will want the Templars "smart" heals to reach everyone.

EDIT: You may never be happy with the Templars mana regen or its dps, but they are still the best healers.

jkirchner71ub17_ESO2 · November 2014

With how quick you can level I'd say consider going a few more levels than just five. Heck the meat and potatoes of any class really doesn't start until 30+ imho but that is just my opinion on this. Had I stopped at five on some of my toons, many of my "less orthodox" choices never would have come to fruition and some of these have developed into very strong characters.