This is getting ridiculous

Rodario · November 2014

To whom it may concern

It is one thing for a major content patch to introduce some bugs of varying severity. That happens in every MMO. It is quite another for an incremental patch - whose sole purpose was to get rid of some of the recently introduced bugs - to not fix a single issue except a malfunctioning emote.

It seems like adding insult to injury to change the status of these issues to FIXED in the official "Update 5 known issues" thread.

Some of you might remember this, others are free to check my older comments to verify the following: I have been defending the state of ESO and ZOS for a long time. Mainly by reminding people that even the most successful MMO to date was in bad shape at the beginning.

But this has been a tough week.

XP gain in VR areas was nerfed to a point where it doesn't make sense to level VR characters until it has been fixed. This has been officially acknowledged to some extent and was supposed to have been fixed to a lesser extent in 1.5.3, but even that didn't happen. (I can't bring myself to level an alt through areas I've already completed with another character in such a story-centric game, so I've been playing something else after doing the writ dailies and collecting hireling mails.)

1.5.3 was accidentally released to EU clients while the server was still running 1.5.2, causing an invalid version error for all EU players that tried to log in after downloading the patch on Sunday. It took an entire day to revert clients to 1.5.2.

Now a bug-fix-patch that doesn't fix a single bug was released to NA and I will bet anyone dollars to donuts that the same do-nothing patch will be released to EU tomorrow.

If my subscription hadn't been renewed just a few days ago, I would probably cancel it right now and wait for at least the XP bug to get fixed.

I will leave you with the following words, originally commented in Sunday's invalid version error thread:

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS, I find your lack of competence disturbing.

MornaBaine · November 2014

Seriously? The Vet XP bug is NOT fixed?????

WraithAzraiel · November 2014

I think someone poisoned the well at ZOS headquarters. Either that or they've been replaced with pod-people.

JessieColt · November 2014

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/139445/

Rodario · November 2014

JessieColt wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/139445/

Again, adding insult to injury.

According to NA players on this forum, none of these issues were fixed (except /leanbackcoin). Yet here they go, claiming alchemy writs etc. were actually fixed.

Rodario · November 2014

I would suggest putting even incremental patches through the PTS first, if I thought it would help. Judging by how many bugs are reported on the PTS and still make it to live, it doesn't seem worth the extra effort though.

Rodario · November 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Seriously? The Vet XP bug is NOT fixed?????

Apparently not. They made an official statement, in which they kinda acknowledged the issue, but made it sound a lot more harmless than it is.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/138980/clarification-regarding-experience-gain-within-veteran-ranks

1.5.3 wasn't even supposed to fix quest XP, just lower-level-mob-kill XP, which did not work.

Potenza · November 2014

Just a thought, maybe they no longer have the experienced programmers they originally employed to create the game and are using less experienced people to "maintain" the game now. So these people in "training" are learning how to "fix" things by trial and error. That's what it feels like anyway.

MornaBaine · November 2014

Rodario wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Seriously? The Vet XP bug is NOT fixed?????

Apparently not. They made an official statement, in which they kinda acknowledged the issue, but made it sound a lot more harmless than it is.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/138980/clarification-regarding-experience-gain-within-veteran-ranks

1.5.3 wasn't even supposed to fix quest XP, just lower-level-mob-kill XP, which did not work.

I don't even have the will to log in now. I have plenty of lowbie alts I could be leveling but... /sigh

rophez_ESO · November 2014

Or, it's a very complicated piece of code and a little mistake caused some parts of the patch from applying. They've acknowledged it and are working on a fix. Meanwhile, many thousands of us are still enjoying the game and the vast majority of its properly working parts.

SgtPepperUK · November 2014

Rodario wrote: »

1.5.3 was accidentally released to EU clients while the server was still running 1.5.2, causing an invalid version error for all EU players that tried to log in after downloading the patch on Sunday. It took an entire day to revert clients to 1.5.2.

I'm still at a loss as to how a client-side update got pushed out on a Sunday morning of all times.

Potenza · November 2014

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Or, it's a very complicated piece of code and a little mistake cause some parts of the patch from applying. They've acknowledged it and are working on a fix. Meanwhile, many thousands of us are still enjoying the game and the vast majority of it's properly working parts.

The xp is a major deal. I have always defended the game too but this is too big to ignore because leveling and advancing or increasing your character is what its all about.

Slurg · November 2014

Let's look on the bright side. Everyone can gather in town with their friends and /leanbackcoin to celebrate the fact that it's fixed. Heck I didn't even know you could /leanbackcoin until it had to be fixed in a patch. Rejoice!

Oh and I think fishing is still working properly.

BBSooner · November 2014

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Or, it's a very complicated piece of code and a little mistake cause some parts of the patch from applying. They've acknowledged it and are working on a fix. Meanwhile, many thousands of us are still enjoying the game and the vast majority of it's properly working parts.

And yet, a feature involved with the core aspect of the game (being rewarded for exploring, character progression, leveling up - even if VR are only temporary at this point) is leaving players feeling like they are being jipped.

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Or, it's a very complicated piece of code and a little mistake cause some parts of the patch from applying. They've acknowledged it and are working on a fix. Meanwhile, many thousands of us are still enjoying the game and the vast majority of it's properly working parts.

The xp is a major deal. I have always defended the game too but this is too big to ignore because leveling and advancing or increasing your character is what its all about.

This.

ZOS'S fear of giving players the ability to quickly traverse a system that they are in the process phasing out (VR) is incredibly misplaced, and leaving players feeling like their efforts in doing the most basic of activities in an MMO (leveling/questing) is being wasted.

OrangeTheCat · November 2014

And why shouldn't people have the option to level quickly? The equivalent of 150 levels of questing is not palatable for everyone. Since the only way to earn XP is by questng/exploring/killing creatures, some people will grind high XP creatures to speed the process up. This is entirely reasonable considering there is no other way to level XP. If there were alternate ways to earn XP (e.g., from crafting) people might do that instead of grinding. But as it is, questing is basically it. It's almost as if ZOS thinks to themselves that they spent so much money on voice actors they want to force us to give them their money's worth and force us to quest to eternity.

McLukos · November 2014

I was hopein to pick up leveling my VR6 through questing tonight... but i guess its PVP again. Good thing the FC removal has created some epic battles.

DenverRalphy · November 2014

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Just a thought, maybe they no longer have the experienced programmers they originally employed to create the game and are using less experienced people to "maintain" the game now. So these people in "training" are learning how to "fix" things by trial and error. That's what it feels like anyway.

I have full confidence in their coders, art designers, etc... since they're a dime a dozen these days. I'm sure they're all of suitable caliber. However, as someone who works in the same field (just not with gaming projects), I can state with relative confidence that all the symptoms we've experienced thus far are typically indicative of a problem at the Project Management level. Everything from project prioritization (which includes design decisions, team coordination, bug selection, etc), to softwared eployment leaves a bit to be desired. Project Management is a major factor in those areas.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · November 2014

Dear ZOS, we understand (most of us) the leveling system will have to completely change for the champion system, but it really needs to stay the same until then: if you give the hardcore players "saved up past max VP" but nerf leveling for everyone else+ alts BEFORE the system is implemented... nobody will be understanding or care. if you going to do anything risky stop saving past level exp and replace the ammout of world boss/ delve/ quest exp with a ratio closer to what it was before.
Im comfortable saying a huge amount of the hardcore player base is making alts, do you really want to make it so dedicated people who are trying to find things to do until more content dont want to keep rolling toons? its crazy.
I understand the end result of champion system will result in it being MUCH easier to roll alts, but people are paying and care just as much about what is happening during their sub as what will keep them subbing; right now its harder to play alts.
having people want to quit because they dont want to level in preperation for a system to close the gap and make it easier to have alts and keep people playing multiple toons is quite ripe with irony.

Natjur · November 2014

I think the let too many testers go and this is what you get when you release too many staff..
They should of fired one of the top guys and kept 10 tester. But as we all know, they let the bottom people go and wonder why the clients (us) get pissed off at a poor product and bad support.

Palidon · November 2014

I have said it before and I will say it again now. ZOS needs to get their house in order. Whats been happening with all the issues and bugs shows total INCOMPETENCE on the part of ZOS. Its a virus that is just getting bigger and bigger.

bunnytrix · November 2014

DenverRalphy wrote: »

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Just a thought, maybe they no longer have the experienced programmers they originally employed to create the game and are using less experienced people to "maintain" the game now. So these people in "training" are learning how to "fix" things by trial and error. That's what it feels like anyway.

I have full confidence in their coders, art designers, etc... since they're a dime a dozen these days. I'm sure they're all of suitable caliber. However, as someone who works in the same field (just not with gaming projects), I can state with relative confidence that all the symptoms we've experienced thus far are typically indicative of a problem at the Project Management level. Everything from project prioritization (which includes design decisions, team coordination, bug selection, etc), to software deployment leaves a bit to be desired. Project Management is a major factor in those areas.

This.
This is what I have been saying all along.
All of the problems in this game come from inept management. Inept and arrogant.
I would say more, but every time I have posted/commented on the game's management in this forum, my comments have been removed and I've had a warning.

Ragefist · November 2014

Relax fellas. Look at the scale of this patch. Its bit different than tabards and armor dyes patch.

If you already panic now, you should not login after champion system patch, cuz that will be much more challenging

Rodario · November 2014

Ragefist wrote: »

Relax fellas. Look at the scale of this patch. Its bit different than tabards and armor dyes patch.

If you already panic now, you should not login after champion system patch, cuz that will be much more challenging

1.5.2 isn't really what this is about.

Rodario · November 2014

DenverRalphy wrote: »

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Just a thought, maybe they no longer have the experienced programmers they originally employed to create the game and are using less experienced people to "maintain" the game now. So these people in "training" are learning how to "fix" things by trial and error. That's what it feels like anyway.

I have full confidence in their coders, art designers, etc... since they're a dime a dozen these days. I'm sure they're all of suitable caliber. However, as someone who works in the same field (just not with gaming projects), I can state with relative confidence that all the symptoms we've experienced thus far are typically indicative of a problem at the Project Management level. Everything from project prioritization (which includes design decisions, team coordination, bug selection, etc), to softwared eployment leaves a bit to be desired. Project Management is a major factor in those areas.

@DenverRalphy‌ is a bugfix patch not fixing anything also a project management problem? I'm honestly asking, it just seems unlikely to a layman like me.

Rodario · November 2014

Rodario wrote: »

Now a bug-fix-patch that doesn't fix a single bug was released to NA and I will bet anyone dollars to donuts that the same do-nothing patch will be released to EU tomorrow.

I expected this, yet I'm still mildly surprised they actually did it.

Where's my donuts?

seanvwolf · November 2014

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

Just a thought, maybe they no longer have the experienced programmers they originally employed to create the game and are using less experienced people to "maintain" the game now. So these people in "training" are learning how to "fix" things by trial and error. That's what it feels like anyway.

I think this is pretty close to the actual case. The unfortunate thing is that many developers are always in a mode of training to fix code that other people write (even when they are on the same team). And most programmers I know don't comment their code, so it makes it doubly poor to try and fix their mistakes.

They need better QA testers. We need to spend more time on the PTS and the patches must be released to the PTS a month before it goes live, end of story. The PTS server should allow us to create characters at any point in the quest line, any achievements we want to test, any dungeons we want to retest... all with checkbox options. End of story. If they want us to be guinea pigs, atleast put laser beams on our heads.

Thudunblundur · November 2014

I posted something similar to the above in another thread - that the problems are in the management. Don't know that it's the case of course, but interesting that others more closely acquainted with the industry are saying the same.

babylon · November 2014

Thudunblundur wrote: »

I posted something similar to the above in another thread - that the problems are in the management. Don't know that it's the case of course, but interesting that others more closely acquainted with the industry are saying the same.

That's what the job review site said about this company as well.

drkeys143 · November 2014

The smaller things I could put up with and get on with it, but we seem to be stumbling from one mess up to another now, it is getting pathetic.

In addition to the VR XP nerf, I am now having a game crash roughly every ten minutes. This began after the "fix" to EU clients on Sunday, following the early release debacle - absolutely nothing has changed on my PC at all, only change has been this fix, and now I have constant crashes on top of everything else.

I have raised a ticket, but am not really surprised that I have heard nothing from CS in 2 days. I am not a ZOS a basher, indeed I love the game, warts and all, but I am getting to the point now where I have taken just about enough, and as has already been said, halting VR exp gain is effectively the core of the game for many. Something needs to be shaken up at ZOS before they do even more damage to a game I have enjoyed so much, and invested a lot of time and money in since beta

Winnower · November 2014

The current game situation is untenable. If the xp situation doesn't improve drastically - at least back to what it was the day before 1.5, people are going to leave.

This will not keep as a 6+ week stage in an ongoing process of switching to the champion system. If it takes that long or longer then there isn't going to be any reason to switch systems because the game will be deserted.

*Some* people will be willing to level toons to 50 for a while, but eventually they will leave as well.

Yesterday the limit on VP levels went from 1.5 million to 4 million xp. 1.5 million under the current XP gain is untenable. 4 million just makes sure everyone knows not to even try.

Adhal · November 2014

I agree with you OP, in the same position myself. I've thought about camcelling, unfortunately I just bought the game for 2 friends prior to 1.5 because they were interested and couldn't afford it ATM.

It bugs me that a patch that had so many amazing things in it was completely ruined by ZOS. Like you said, its a MMO, they have bugs. But to botch the fix for those bugs, and let's not forget release the fix early client side for those on EU (locking them out of the game).... Wow...

If I was running things at ZOS, they would all be running double shifts till they fixed this mess, and if they didn't like it I'd direct them to the door.

All this is unacceptable, and to make it worse they think being vr5 when you get to a VR10 zone questing is acceptable? OK I get it, champ system is coming out, vr is technically worthless, so make it easier to get to that worthless vr14 so we can actually participate in things. No one gives a *** about the amount of experience points we have, we just want the damn rank so we can participate and use the gear we need.