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So, About That Dungeon Scaling
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Karnus✭✭✭✭Just want some VR10-14 solo content, I still have NONE of the original Craglorn quests done, nevermind the Upper Craglorn stuff and the Undaunted stuff is also group only so ...yay crafting?Formerly Karnus, the Marauder in Warhammer.3 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.
Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.
As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.
EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.
Honestly, scaling should probably work off flat stat modifiers, rather than a % modifier... at least, the impression I've gotten is that everything's getting it's stats modified by a %.
Yeh, but that is complicated. Just adding an easier mode with flat across the line lowered difficulty is easier and should be doable quickly.
No... do it right or just take out the scaling entirely. This half measure, "let's just slap the whole thing with a multiplier" is how we got into this mess in the first place.
Yes, we should take scaling out and go back to when nobody was doing dungeons because they were pointless and basically dead content.
This is the issue with players with your mentality. They are completely unwilling to compromise. You can come up with a solution that may make things work better for them, but nope. If they don't like it or it is to hard for them, it has to go or be nerfed across the board.timidobserver wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.
Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.
As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.
EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.
Honestly, scaling should probably work off flat stat modifiers, rather than a % modifier... at least, the impression I've gotten is that everything's getting it's stats modified by a %.
Yeh, but that is complicated. Just adding an easier mode with flat across the line lowered difficulty is easier and should be doable quickly.
Yes, however this makes trash stronger, its easy to notice that the trash is far more dangerous than before. Bosses who spawn lots of trash is an serious problem. Scaling looks like work well with the bosses themselves.
I don't really care if trash is strong. I'd just like to add some easy modes and maybe even a solo mode just so that those players will stop complaining. They have coded in dungeon scaling, so what they need is there. All they have to do is create more modes and adjust the scaling for those modes.
A mode with Reduced Loot + Flat Reduced Difficulty = Quick easy solution that could be done on a incremental patch rather than taking up space on a major release.
Edited by timidobserver on November 10, 2014 9:36AMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)2 -
SteveCampsOut✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have been doing dungeons since Beta and haven't stopped doing them til now. This current Scaling is Broken. I never asked for them to be nerfed the first time because they didn't need it.@ֆȶɛʋɛƈǟʍքֆօʊȶ⍟
Sanguine & Psijic Group Beta Tester.
NA Server:Steforax Soulstrong CH782 Sorcerer ADEU Server:
Grumpy Kahjiti CH782 Dragonknight AD
Rheticia Le Drakisius CH782 Nightblade DC
Razmuzan Thrasmas CH782 Templar EP
Sheenara Soulstrong CH782 Dragonknight DC
Erik Ramzey CH782 Nightblade AD
Growling Kahjiti CH782 Nightblade EP
One of Many Faces CH782 Sorcerer DC
Grumpasaurus Rex CH782 Warden DCGuildmaster of Pacrooti's Hirelings AD Based LGBT Friendly Guild.
Stefrex Souliss CH701 Sorcerer AD
Grumpy Kahjiti CH701 Dragonknight DC
Slithisi Ksissi CH701 Nightblade EP
Pokes-With-Fire CH701 Dragonknight AD
Josie-The-Pussi-Cat CH701 Templar AD
Stug-Grog M'God CH701 Templar DC
One With Many Faces CH701 Nightblade DC
Trixie Truskan CH701 Sorcerer EP
Grumpetasaurus Rex CH701 Warden EP3 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I ran the pledges for a few days now, did all hardmodes and...okay, wow. It's definitely not facerolling anymore.
I'd like to think I'm above average. I'm not pulling the highest dps ever because I prefer sustainability to spamming equilibrium, but I rarely die stupid, can (off) heal really well etc. I've completed every single vet dungeon achievement prior to 1.5 except one of the slayer ones. I also have some really great people to run with, but I still cannot decide if I like this or not.
Additional challenge is good. A lot of those dungeons were ridiculously easy at vet 14 with good team. Plus, we get scaled loot now, yay. However, this just might be overdoing it. Most vet dungeons remind me of COH now - doable, possibly even easily, but with very good, very well coordinated group where everyone's concentrated on fights 100% from start to finish. If they aren't, it's a wipefest even with good group.
And I don't mind some wiping to get a challenging victory. Though with challenge like that, more reward than 0.000001% chance for something decent would be nice. But a LOT of people do mind. I'd say majority of the people can't enjoy the dungeons now - not everyone is hardcore players. This need an off switch. Turn off 1.5 dungeon buff to make them go back to pre 1.5 level if that's what people want. Diminish the reward for doing it that way, but leave it still possible. Make everyone happy - leave the hardcore player their challenge, give casual players a choice.
Also, adjust the scaling. It's been done the same way all across the board, as a result, say, Elden, Fungal and Wayrest are still pretty easy, but Imril in BC and Praxin in Spindle are a nightmare because of a ton of health and speed of cycling through phases. Grobul in DC is also no joke now - and he used to be like easiest boss of the dungeon. Plus, I'd say they all just have too much HP. For example, COH is a perfectly challenging dungeon where I've wiped many times, but I never felt like "omg just when are you gonna die already, how many times do we have to repeat that". It's only challenging in a fun way like first half of the fight with health pools like that, the second half you start getting tired of it - which also means the attention is that much more likely to slip and you'll make a deadly mistake(and have to start all over against those 200k health again).
Overall...mixed feelings here. Sometimes I like it, sometimes it makes me want to throw the laptop out of the window. I do really hope they don't just nerf it back to where it was though but add some kind of a switch instead.5 -
Divinius✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Glad to see there's some hard-core players out there that actually "get it"... Excellent post.But a LOT of people do mind. I'd say majority of the people can't enjoy the dungeons now - not everyone is hardcore players. This need an off switch. Turn off 1.5 dungeon buff to make them go back to pre 1.5 level if that's what people want. Diminish the reward for doing it that way, but leave it still possible. Make everyone happy - leave the hardcore player their challenge, give casual players a choice.
I do really hope they don't just nerf it back to where it was though but add some kind of a switch instead.
4 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Don't saying if the content is too easy or hard, just that the scaling is uneven, might be relevant to make bosses harder to compensate.timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.
Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.
As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.
EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.
Honestly, scaling should probably work off flat stat modifiers, rather than a % modifier... at least, the impression I've gotten is that everything's getting it's stats modified by a %.
Yeh, but that is complicated. Just adding an easier mode with flat across the line lowered difficulty is easier and should be doable quickly.
Yes, however this makes trash stronger, its easy to notice that the trash is far more dangerous than before. Bosses who spawn lots of trash is an serious problem. Scaling looks like work well with the bosses themselves.
I don't really care if trash is strong. I'd just like to add some easy modes and maybe even a solo mode just so that those players will stop complaining. They have coded in dungeon scaling, so what they need is there. All they have to do is create more modes and adjust the scaling for those modes.
A mode with Reduced Loot + Flat Reduced Difficulty = Quick easy solution that could be done on a incremental patch rather than taking up space on a major release.
Yes it could be worse, they could have scaled so bosses did +3k unavoidable damage at VR12
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
cracker81✭✭✭I ran the pledges for a few days now, did all hardmodes and...okay, wow. It's definitely not facerolling anymore.
I'd like to think I'm above average. I'm not pulling the highest dps ever because I prefer sustainability to spamming equilibrium, but I rarely die stupid, can (off) heal really well etc. I've completed every single vet dungeon achievement prior to 1.5 except one of the slayer ones. I also have some really great people to run with, but I still cannot decide if I like this or not.
Additional challenge is good. A lot of those dungeons were ridiculously easy at vet 14 with good team. Plus, we get scaled loot now, yay. However, this just might be overdoing it. Most vet dungeons remind me of COH now - doable, possibly even easily, but with very good, very well coordinated group where everyone's concentrated on fights 100% from start to finish. If they aren't, it's a wipefest even with good group.
And I don't mind some wiping to get a challenging victory. Though with challenge like that, more reward than 0.000001% chance for something decent would be nice. But a LOT of people do mind. I'd say majority of the people can't enjoy the dungeons now - not everyone is hardcore players. This need an off switch. Turn off 1.5 dungeon buff to make them go back to pre 1.5 level if that's what people want. Diminish the reward for doing it that way, but leave it still possible. Make everyone happy - leave the hardcore player their challenge, give casual players a choice.
Also, adjust the scaling. It's been done the same way all across the board, as a result, say, Elden, Fungal and Wayrest are still pretty easy, but Imril in BC and Praxin in Spindle are a nightmare because of a ton of health and speed of cycling through phases. Grobul in DC is also no joke now - and he used to be like easiest boss of the dungeon. Plus, I'd say they all just have too much HP. For example, COH is a perfectly challenging dungeon where I've wiped many times, but I never felt like "omg just when are you gonna die already, how many times do we have to repeat that". It's only challenging in a fun way like first half of the fight with health pools like that, the second half you start getting tired of it - which also means the attention is that much more likely to slip and you'll make a deadly mistake(and have to start all over against those 200k health again).
Overall...mixed feelings here. Sometimes I like it, sometimes it makes me want to throw the laptop out of the window. I do really hope they don't just nerf it back to where it was though but add some kind of a switch instead.
Why don't you just make group leader a lower Vet lvl? So, then the bosses are easier and you just created worthless gear.2 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
First, I didn't say *I* needed a switch. I'd still like my challenge and fancy loot...most of the time at least. Second, yes, it's possible, but do you really think it's an acceptable way around? So if 4 casual vet 14 friends want to run a relatively easy dungeon, they have to find a low level vet friend/alt, make him glead, then upon entering the dungeon have him pass glead to someone else, kick him and invite the vet 14 friend #4?I ran the pledges for a few days now, did all hardmodes and...okay, wow. It's definitely not facerolling anymore.
I'd like to think I'm above average. I'm not pulling the highest dps ever because I prefer sustainability to spamming equilibrium, but I rarely die stupid, can (off) heal really well etc. I've completed every single vet dungeon achievement prior to 1.5 except one of the slayer ones. I also have some really great people to run with, but I still cannot decide if I like this or not.
Additional challenge is good. A lot of those dungeons were ridiculously easy at vet 14 with good team. Plus, we get scaled loot now, yay. However, this just might be overdoing it. Most vet dungeons remind me of COH now - doable, possibly even easily, but with very good, very well coordinated group where everyone's concentrated on fights 100% from start to finish. If they aren't, it's a wipefest even with good group.
And I don't mind some wiping to get a challenging victory. Though with challenge like that, more reward than 0.000001% chance for something decent would be nice. But a LOT of people do mind. I'd say majority of the people can't enjoy the dungeons now - not everyone is hardcore players. This need an off switch. Turn off 1.5 dungeon buff to make them go back to pre 1.5 level if that's what people want. Diminish the reward for doing it that way, but leave it still possible. Make everyone happy - leave the hardcore player their challenge, give casual players a choice.
Also, adjust the scaling. It's been done the same way all across the board, as a result, say, Elden, Fungal and Wayrest are still pretty easy, but Imril in BC and Praxin in Spindle are a nightmare because of a ton of health and speed of cycling through phases. Grobul in DC is also no joke now - and he used to be like easiest boss of the dungeon. Plus, I'd say they all just have too much HP. For example, COH is a perfectly challenging dungeon where I've wiped many times, but I never felt like "omg just when are you gonna die already, how many times do we have to repeat that". It's only challenging in a fun way like first half of the fight with health pools like that, the second half you start getting tired of it - which also means the attention is that much more likely to slip and you'll make a deadly mistake(and have to start all over against those 200k health again).
Overall...mixed feelings here. Sometimes I like it, sometimes it makes me want to throw the laptop out of the window. I do really hope they don't just nerf it back to where it was though but add some kind of a switch instead.
Why don't you just make group leader a lower Vet lvl? So, then the bosses are easier and you just created worthless gear.
I don't really see what there is AGAINST having an off switch. For those that don't want it, they absolutely don't have to use it. For those that want it, they'll have a choice. Providing wider choices to cater to a wider range of customers is always a good thing.
Besides, I'm not entirely sure because I haven't run any non-vet 14-scaled dungeons since 1.5 but people say it's not the scaling but overall buff. That vet 5 versions of old vet 5 dungeons are still much harder than they used to be. That cannot be reversed by a vet 1 groupleader, and while a lot of people were complaining dungeons were facerolling, there're casual players who found them perfectly challenging and fun the way they were.3 -
ghengis_dhan✭✭✭Let's be realistic. ESO needs to cater to all kinds of gamers in order to thrive. I'd like to see three difficulty setting with rewards that are appropriate to the challenge.
Bronze - easy, kiddie setting for the casual
Silver - normal setting with normal loot
Gold - difficult setting with rare legendary drops; only top 0.1% will find this funEdited by ghengis_dhan on November 10, 2014 4:10PM"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Teddy Roosevelt, Paris, 19104 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭MasterSpatula wrote: »deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »Not going to bother reading the whole thing. All I read was "to hard" lol.
Perhaps, and stop me if I'm being crazy here, you might want to find out what people said before you insult them for it.
Wow......you're pretty soft skinned. You consider that an insult? You must of lived a pretty cushy life. By the way, I did read the whole thing. Opinion hasn't changed. Sorry the game is to hard for you. L2P and stop pugging. Grab team speak and research dungeon guides. Plenty of times I ended up pugging and we were wiping until I finally slowed everyone down and was like "hey, we need to step back and plan better". Everything went fine after that.Edited by deepseamk20b14_ESO on November 10, 2014 4:15PMHey everyone! Look! It's a signature!4 -
cracker81✭✭✭
First, I didn't say *I* needed a switch. I'd still like my challenge and fancy loot...most of the time at least. Second, yes, it's possible, but do you really think it's an acceptable way around? So if 4 casual vet 14 friends want to run a relatively easy dungeon, they have to find a low level vet friend/alt, make him glead, then upon entering the dungeon have him pass glead to someone else, kick him and invite the vet 14 friend #4?I ran the pledges for a few days now, did all hardmodes and...okay, wow. It's definitely not facerolling anymore.
I'd like to think I'm above average. I'm not pulling the highest dps ever because I prefer sustainability to spamming equilibrium, but I rarely die stupid, can (off) heal really well etc. I've completed every single vet dungeon achievement prior to 1.5 except one of the slayer ones. I also have some really great people to run with, but I still cannot decide if I like this or not.
Additional challenge is good. A lot of those dungeons were ridiculously easy at vet 14 with good team. Plus, we get scaled loot now, yay. However, this just might be overdoing it. Most vet dungeons remind me of COH now - doable, possibly even easily, but with very good, very well coordinated group where everyone's concentrated on fights 100% from start to finish. If they aren't, it's a wipefest even with good group.
And I don't mind some wiping to get a challenging victory. Though with challenge like that, more reward than 0.000001% chance for something decent would be nice. But a LOT of people do mind. I'd say majority of the people can't enjoy the dungeons now - not everyone is hardcore players. This need an off switch. Turn off 1.5 dungeon buff to make them go back to pre 1.5 level if that's what people want. Diminish the reward for doing it that way, but leave it still possible. Make everyone happy - leave the hardcore player their challenge, give casual players a choice.
Also, adjust the scaling. It's been done the same way all across the board, as a result, say, Elden, Fungal and Wayrest are still pretty easy, but Imril in BC and Praxin in Spindle are a nightmare because of a ton of health and speed of cycling through phases. Grobul in DC is also no joke now - and he used to be like easiest boss of the dungeon. Plus, I'd say they all just have too much HP. For example, COH is a perfectly challenging dungeon where I've wiped many times, but I never felt like "omg just when are you gonna die already, how many times do we have to repeat that". It's only challenging in a fun way like first half of the fight with health pools like that, the second half you start getting tired of it - which also means the attention is that much more likely to slip and you'll make a deadly mistake(and have to start all over against those 200k health again).
Overall...mixed feelings here. Sometimes I like it, sometimes it makes me want to throw the laptop out of the window. I do really hope they don't just nerf it back to where it was though but add some kind of a switch instead.
Why don't you just make group leader a lower Vet lvl? So, then the bosses are easier and you just created worthless gear.
I don't really see what there is AGAINST having an off switch. For those that don't want it, they absolutely don't have to use it. For those that want it, they'll have a choice. Providing wider choices to cater to a wider range of customers is always a good thing.
Besides, I'm not entirely sure because I haven't run any non-vet 14-scaled dungeons since 1.5 but people say it's not the scaling but overall buff. That vet 5 versions of old vet 5 dungeons are still much harder than they used to be. That cannot be reversed by a vet 1 groupleader, and while a lot of people were complaining dungeons were facerolling, there're casual players who found them perfectly challenging and fun the way they were.
I really don't understand you? You say if 4 x VR14 want to do a dungeon together and make it is easy. I would say had to Crag for the 4man dungeons(Easy) or try to do a normal dungeon. ESO has provided all modes of difficulty. As stated below.
1. Very very easy make group leader lvl 12 first dungeons in the zones and you get your quest/your key with no gear that drops.
2. Very easy make group leader VR1 normal with 3 x VR14 get gear but almost worthless plus silver key.
3. Easy Craglorn 4man dungeons for anyone VR10+
4. Normal VR10+ normal dungeon and you get ok gear.
5. Hard VR 1-9 Vet dungeon and you get ok gear plus gold key.
6. Harder VR10+ Vet dungeon and you better gear plus gold key.0 -
took us like 2 1/2 hrs to clear vet Darkshade Caverns.We wiped a lot in the netch(here I have to say,I was the tank and there was sometyhing very weird,I was spamming my taunts like crazy and the freaking netch just ignored me,that happens like 5 times)Then we wiped a lot in last boss trying to do hardmode.
With that say and a bit out of topic,does anyone knows if there is something wrong with taunts not working?What happened to me with the netch was very annoying.Got his attention,then suddenly it goes after a player and i use all my resources spamming both taunts and he just ignored me.If anyone knows if there is an issue with taunts,let me know please.1 -
cracker81✭✭✭vladimilianoub17_ESO1 wrote: »took us like 2 1/2 hrs to clear vet Darkshade Caverns.We wiped a lot in the netch(here I have to say,I was the tank and there was sometyhing very weird,I was spamming my taunts like crazy and the freaking netch just ignored me,that happens like 5 times)Then we wiped a lot in last boss trying to do hardmode.
With that say and a bit out of topic,does anyone knows if there is something wrong with taunts not working?What happened to me with the netch was very annoying.Got his attention,then suddenly it goes after a player and i use all my resources spamming both taunts and he just ignored me.If anyone knows if there is an issue with taunts,let me know please.
Taunt is not working properly. What I do is keep hitting taunt now or when boss starts to go for other person, run over hit boss with taunt two times. Also, if the boss has no adds equip dps ability as well. I notice taunt falls off if you get a knock back done to you as well by the boss.2 -
cracker81✭✭✭ghengis_dhan wrote: »Let's be realistic. ESO needs to cater to all kinds of gamers in order to thrive. I'd like to see three difficulty setting with rewards that are appropriate to the challenge.
Bronze - easy, kiddie setting for the casual
Silver - normal setting with normal loot
Gold - difficult setting with rare legendary drops; only top 0.1% will find this fun
1. Very very easy make group leader lvl 12 first dungeons in the zones and you get your quest/your key with no gear that drops from boss or adds.
2. Very easy make group leader VR1 normal with 3 x VR14 get gear but almost worthless gear that drops plus silver key.
3. Easy Craglorn 4man dungeons for anyone VR10+ and with no key.
4. Normal VR10+ normal dungeon and you get ok gear.
5. Hard VR 1-9 Vet dungeon and you get ok gear plus gold key.
6. Harder VR10+ Vet dungeon and you better gear plus gold key.0 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
First, I didn't say *I* needed a switch. I'd still like my challenge and fancy loot...most of the time at least. Second, yes, it's possible, but do you really think it's an acceptable way around? So if 4 casual vet 14 friends want to run a relatively easy dungeon, they have to find a low level vet friend/alt, make him glead, then upon entering the dungeon have him pass glead to someone else, kick him and invite the vet 14 friend #4?I ran the pledges for a few days now, did all hardmodes and...okay, wow. It's definitely not facerolling anymore.
I'd like to think I'm above average. I'm not pulling the highest dps ever because I prefer sustainability to spamming equilibrium, but I rarely die stupid, can (off) heal really well etc. I've completed every single vet dungeon achievement prior to 1.5 except one of the slayer ones. I also have some really great people to run with, but I still cannot decide if I like this or not.
Additional challenge is good. A lot of those dungeons were ridiculously easy at vet 14 with good team. Plus, we get scaled loot now, yay. However, this just might be overdoing it. Most vet dungeons remind me of COH now - doable, possibly even easily, but with very good, very well coordinated group where everyone's concentrated on fights 100% from start to finish. If they aren't, it's a wipefest even with good group.
And I don't mind some wiping to get a challenging victory. Though with challenge like that, more reward than 0.000001% chance for something decent would be nice. But a LOT of people do mind. I'd say majority of the people can't enjoy the dungeons now - not everyone is hardcore players. This need an off switch. Turn off 1.5 dungeon buff to make them go back to pre 1.5 level if that's what people want. Diminish the reward for doing it that way, but leave it still possible. Make everyone happy - leave the hardcore player their challenge, give casual players a choice.
Also, adjust the scaling. It's been done the same way all across the board, as a result, say, Elden, Fungal and Wayrest are still pretty easy, but Imril in BC and Praxin in Spindle are a nightmare because of a ton of health and speed of cycling through phases. Grobul in DC is also no joke now - and he used to be like easiest boss of the dungeon. Plus, I'd say they all just have too much HP. For example, COH is a perfectly challenging dungeon where I've wiped many times, but I never felt like "omg just when are you gonna die already, how many times do we have to repeat that". It's only challenging in a fun way like first half of the fight with health pools like that, the second half you start getting tired of it - which also means the attention is that much more likely to slip and you'll make a deadly mistake(and have to start all over against those 200k health again).
Overall...mixed feelings here. Sometimes I like it, sometimes it makes me want to throw the laptop out of the window. I do really hope they don't just nerf it back to where it was though but add some kind of a switch instead.
Why don't you just make group leader a lower Vet lvl? So, then the bosses are easier and you just created worthless gear.
I don't really see what there is AGAINST having an off switch. For those that don't want it, they absolutely don't have to use it. For those that want it, they'll have a choice. Providing wider choices to cater to a wider range of customers is always a good thing.
Besides, I'm not entirely sure because I haven't run any non-vet 14-scaled dungeons since 1.5 but people say it's not the scaling but overall buff. That vet 5 versions of old vet 5 dungeons are still much harder than they used to be. That cannot be reversed by a vet 1 groupleader, and while a lot of people were complaining dungeons were facerolling, there're casual players who found them perfectly challenging and fun the way they were.
Precisely. Nobody who had concerns about dungeon scaling before or after the patch was out said "don't do it". Everybody said "give us the option to scale or not when the instance starts".
The scaling does seem to be off. Banished Cells at V2 felt way harder than it was before. I ran a V1 instance of Spindleclutch (which I'd never run) with a V1, V8 and 2 V14 and we couldn't get past the boss with the nightmare army. This was after being in there for a couple of hours.
Same group had no problems in V1 Volenfell, and V1 Blessed Crucible was fun but fairly easy too.
The day before I tried running Blackheart with a group of friends (I don't remember the level, I think it was V4) and it took us forever to get past the Roost Mother and we never made it past the last boss.
On the first day I ran V2 Direfrost Keep with V2-V8-V12-V12 and it was challenging but fine. But still. This should be challenging with a group of V2s, not a team where more than half is overlevelled.
So I think there's definitely some fine tuning to be done and I'll wait and see what ZOS does.
To those people who say there should be a learning curve, there was one before.
You got to V1 and you could go through the Tier 1 vet dungeons and start figuring out the more complex boss mechanics, then move to tier 2, and so on. Also throw in some Craglorn dungeons/quests (which are fun, btw) and work your way up to Trials/Arena/Whatever the end-game dungeon is.
Now it just feels like you hit a wall. Burning through half you stock of soul gems in a dungeon run is really not fun.
Again, for people who are amazing players and who like a challenge, nobody is saying the dungeons shouldn't scale. Just that there should be an option to turn it off. Some days, challenge is good. Some days you want an easier time, or try to practice the dance on an easier version of a boss.
Choice is good. Let's have more of it, not less.The Moot Councillor4 -
SteveCampsOut✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Additional challenge is good. A lot of those dungeons were ridiculously easy at vet 14 with good team.
See, the problem here is these dungeons weren't MADE for VR 14's! Of course they were going to be face roll easy for VR 14's! What the heck do you expect when the Vet Alliance zones topped out at VR12?!?! This is why Craglorn exists! So you guys have your challenge. Thanks to the whines of a few, not even Normal Mode is normal anymore.
@ֆȶɛʋɛƈǟʍքֆօʊȶ⍟
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Trixie Truskan CH701 Sorcerer EP
Grumpetasaurus Rex CH701 Warden EP4 -
Aeratus✭✭✭✭✭
"Scaling" is basically a misnomer, and is a misleading description. The dungeons' difficulty was increased regardless of the scaled level, and the mechanics were made harder. Any vet dungeon scaled to v1 is much harder than what it used to be before patch 1.5.The scaling does seem to be off. Banished Cells at V2 felt way harder than it was before. I ran a V1 instance of Spindleclutch (which I'd never run) with a V1, V8 and 2 V14 and we couldn't get past the boss with the nightmare army. This was after being in there for a couple of hours.6 -
Sneak_Thief✭✭✭✭ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »We want to thank everyone for the feedback regarding the changes to the dungeon scaling we implemented in Update 5. We've read your concerns and are taking a very close look at how these changes have impacted difficulty for both groups and solo players. Thank you all for your patience—we’ll keep you updated.
Yes please look into this.
In the PTS myself and 3 others made vet 12 templets. These vet 12 templets were in my opinion overpowered compaired to what I would have access to in the live server. They were maxed on all skills and had all gold armor and weapons (and all the other goodies zos throws into the templetes).
We took on an undaunted dungeon, the four of us being experience thought this would be an easier run... Well the dungeon we faced was on par with what a group of 12 veterans would face. Our 4 vet 12's were slaughtered back to back, and this was just from standard groups of mobs.
After 2 hours, about 20 deaths each (thank god for those repair kits) we barely were even past the first boss. We just gave up. This example told me somthing is very very wrong and there was no way this would be practical or even do-able on the live server. This would have cost us 10-20k just on repair kits/potions/gems, all to just fail miserably.
It may be some dungeons more than others, but what you have is broken, and barely playable.Edited by Sneak_Thief on November 10, 2014 4:48PM2 -
cote-bmsb16_ESO✭✭✭I'm going to change my stance from - "Its too hard!" to, "certain dungeons need a second look over". My guild pulled me in on a the dungeon with Imirill, and that turned me off from the 1.5 update and undaunted dungeons. Since then, I've been running undaunted dungeons all week, and getting the golden keys. We're v14. We have a dedicated healer and tank, and two dps. The two dps can also flip their bars and start tanking or healing, if one of the main healer/tank went down. It is tough, and it takes much longer to complete a dungeon now. I like to do other things, so hopefully they can adjust bosses total hp so it doesn't take all night to run a dungeon. We burn through soul gems, repair kits, food, and potions all weekend. Some dungeons like Tempest Island, City of Ash, Selenes Web, Fungal are spot on with the difficulty, but others are just stupid like Imirill's fight.2
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cracker81✭✭✭
"Scaling" is basically a misnomer, and is a misleading description. The dungeons' difficulty was increased regardless of the scaled level, and the mechanics were made harder. Any vet dungeon scaled to v1 is much harder than what it used to be before patch 1.5.The scaling does seem to be off. Banished Cells at V2 felt way harder than it was before. I ran a V1 instance of Spindleclutch (which I'd never run) with a V1, V8 and 2 V14 and we couldn't get past the boss with the nightmare army. This was after being in there for a couple of hours.
Now, we are talking. The right issue that plagues scaled dungeons. I do agree with you on the V1 is much harder than it should be. I do believe ESO needs to look in on the actual scaling. Then it would give players a real choice on what VR dungeon they will do. I have noticed that even though it is a VR1 dungeon the VR14 still get gear and the VR1 gets no gear(BUG). I believe it shows as the party leaders lvl but may still scale in Vet rank dungeons regardless of group leader. Now it is working properly for lower lvls due to I have ran a lvl 12 through a dungeon with scaling. Some issues need worked out for the scaled system to work.
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cote-bmsb16_ESO wrote: »I'm going to change my stance from - "Its too hard!" to, "certain dungeons need a second look over". My guild pulled me in on a the dungeon with Imirill, and that turned me off from the 1.5 update and undaunted dungeons. Since then, I've been running undaunted dungeons all week, and getting the golden keys. We're v14. We have a dedicated healer and tank, and two dps. The two dps can also flip their bars and start tanking or healing, if one of the main healer/tank went down. It is tough, and it takes much longer to complete a dungeon now. I like to do other things, so hopefully they can adjust bosses total hp so it doesn't take all night to run a dungeon. We burn through soul gems, repair kits, food, and potions all weekend. Some dungeons like Tempest Island, City of Ash, Selenes Web, Fungal are spot on with the difficulty, but others are just stupid like Imirill's fight.
Good point in saying they take longer now.Me too want to do others things in the game but this runs are taking to long.Also I want to farm specific dungeons so i can get the new helmets,but at this pace it just sux.
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Khivas_Carrick✭✭✭✭✭Ok, I skipped over a bunch of what people said because it's all of the same two things:
1) Dungeon Scaling is amazing, don't lower it because hardcore elitists love it
and
2) Dungeon is too difficult, you should do away with it entirely.
No.
If I could control my font size that "No" would be freaking massive for all of you to see, and here's my reasoning, in a list, because lists are easy to understand. Usually.
1) Dungeon Scaling is the best thing to happen for awhile, it was just slightly poorly executed. What I mean by this is that Scaling was needed, badly, however it would appear that ZoS simply took the monsters, bosses and all, and simply did a superimposed increase on their everything and didn't really test it themselves, which they should have done because as we, the playerbase, have shown time and again, we really, really suck at testing things on the PTS when we have to and end up "testing" it when it all goes live. Of course this is also due in part to the PTS Character Copy being total garbage.
2) To say that people suck and should learn to play better covers a minority at best. If you honestly think that every player out there is bad when they complain about content being a tad too difficult, then you're an *** that needs to remove his head from his own ass, because that's just plain wrong and you're part of the problem. As many have said, they are not the hardcore elite, they're players that know what they're doing, they simply don't have as much time as you do to play, and thus aren't as "Skillfully Mastered" as you because they have to work for their paychecks and living conditions. Please, when you think of a comment to say, remember that there are literally uncountable walks of life and they all play this game. Think for the group, not just yourself.
3) As a way to hark back on point numero uno, Dungeon Scaling needs a closer, more in-depth look at it to find where and what needs tweaks. Keep in mind these were mostly meant to be cleared with a certain type of strategy but they also need to be cleared by all players, or at least close to it. I walk around with a 2H and a Bow for this very reason because I expect to be met with multiple situations where a differing strat will be required. I do not expect however that each encounter can be beaten by the same simple build, which is to say the amazingly powerful Light Armor and Stick combo, where you get both Powerful AoE and Single Target all on the same bar, whereas Stamina Builds gotta play around at best, suffer at worst, but sadly this is an issue for another thread topic.
4) Be kind to each other guys, you want to get taken seriously, act like an adult and not some snot nosed high schooler or *** college kid that wants to act tough and say his piece in a manner best suited for a *** with no grace. Don't simply say "Well this sucks and so do you!" to anything. Include a reasoning, give an understanding, think about your opposing side in the argument, and for *** sake, remember that they're human too. Hell, that last sentence is why I'm expecting to be met with backlash for saying/giving this list because I know a few of you will be insulted, and a few trolls will just walk away laughing and a few more still will rally behind me. Why? You're human, good for you.
5) For the love of God, tweak the numbers a bit @ZoS, that's literally all that needs done. Look at Imiril. Her HP? Just fine. Her Adds HP? wee bit too high.Edited by Khivas_Carrick on November 10, 2014 5:40PMBobbity Boop, this game might become poop, but I'll still play because I'm just a pile of goop!2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »I don't have an issue with the difficulty, but here is a solution.
Add a Casual mode in, so we will have Casual Normal, Regular Normal, Casual Veteran, and Regular Veteran. In casual mode reduce the difficulty by about 30-40%. This means bosses and mobs do 40% less damage and have 40% less health.
As far as itemization goes, no new set items would drop in casual, but completing it will reward a bronze undaunted key.
EDIT: When causal is toggled, it might work to just give the group buffs to stats similar to the Cyrodil buff just for entering.
Honestly, scaling should probably work off flat stat modifiers, rather than a % modifier... at least, the impression I've gotten is that everything's getting it's stats modified by a %.
Yeh, but that is complicated. Just adding an easier mode with flat across the line lowered difficulty is easier and should be doable quickly.
No... do it right or just take out the scaling entirely. This half measure, "let's just slap the whole thing with a multiplier" is how we got into this mess in the first place.
Yes, we should take scaling out and go back to when nobody was doing dungeons because they were pointless and basically dead content.
This is the issue with players with your mentality. They are completely unwilling to compromise. You can come up with a solution that may make things work better for them, but nope. If they don't like it or it is to hard for them, it has to go or be nerfed across the board.
Your psychic powers astound me... well, not really, because that's not what I said at all. Maybe you should read the post instead of using those powers to predict what you think I'll say, because, well, you're not exactly batting 1000 right now.
What I was actually saying, which you might have read, is that, "if you're going to fix something, maybe you shouldn't break it horrifically in the process, and then say, "eh, good enough, let's push it live.'"
But, yeah, you're right, that is entirely unreasonable of me, I should know better from seeing the development process in the game, and should compromise and accept that systems well get bjorked badly as a result.3 -
cracker81✭✭✭I take it back on what I said about scaling. Few bugs
1. When you make a VR 1 vet it should scale not stay the same as VR12. I am not saying the fight but the stats.
2. VR12 vets on some dungeons as in BC last boss is harder than trials. I like the challenge but come on now. If you are going to make it hard where is the reward? He hits me at 25% regardless of my spell resist. So, why doesn't spell reflect work? You may need to look into that fight. I off heal some and tank.
3. Engine guardian in one of the vet dungeons almost you have to have 2 to 3 healers to down him. Meaning tank off heal/dps, dps/off heal, and healer would heal. Love the challenge but I need some rewards for these amazing fights.
I like the idea but I don't think many casual players will down the VR12 vets. Due to everyone will have to utilize both of their specs.1 -
Aeratus✭✭✭✭✭
This isn't a problem, because bringing in your own heals is how the game is designed, and is part of the factor of adapting to the situation. Any magicka dps and a templar of any role will be capable of offhealing, so you can generally get everything covered.3. Engine guardian in one of the vet dungeons almost you have to have 2 to 3 healers to down him. Meaning tank off heal/dps, dps/off heal, and healer would heal.1 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I noticed today that Imiril and the final boss of banished cells can attack through all blocks. Blocking is completely useless in those fights, and reflect was useless on the final boss as well. Something is seriously broken in banished cells.
I beat it, but I'm pretty sure block is suppose to work in those fights, and reflect too. I bug reported it but I don't get any responses from ZOS anymore on any type of thing I submit so maybe someone else should report it.Edited by Armitas on November 12, 2014 11:41AMRetired.
Nord mDK2 -
oy2001✭✭Dungeon scaling like this is really a terrible idea for all the non-hardcore players, and there are a lot of us out there. How am I supposed to come back and try again after I've failed, and then taken the time to level up and learn new tricks, when the dungeon will only get HARDER each time? The added pressure for so-called "normal" group dungeons is frankly depressing as hell. I CAN HAZ FREE RESPEC FOR UNDAUNTED SKILL POINTS?3
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Llewyn✭✭So I'm really enjoying the new system, its challenging and keeps me focused but as some have said, you all need to take a look at tweaking some of the bosses in the vet dungeons. Specifically, freaking Grobull in vet Darkshade. Just tried to run it with 2 VR14's (one tank, one heals) A VR5 DPS, and then myself on my second, freshly VR1 DK DPS( Dungeon was scaled, or supposed to be scaled to VR1) We cleared the first two bosses so issues, one death. We get to Grobull and BAM! Huge mob of adds doing DPS damn near equal to Grobull's AOE. Please, dont take it away just tweak those bosses that took their increased powers and are trying to take over Tamriel now0
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Veteran dungeons was hard, I did BC then I pretty much gave up dungeons after having epic wipes.Dungeon scaling like this is really a terrible idea for all the non-hardcore players, and there are a lot of us out there. How am I supposed to come back and try again after I've failed, and then taken the time to level up and learn new tricks, when the dungeon will only get HARDER each time? The added pressure for so-called "normal" group dungeons is frankly depressing as hell. I CAN HAZ FREE RESPEC FOR UNDAUNTED SKILL POINTS?
Started again around VR10 and it was doable and became easy.
Now they are hard, as hard as they was in the beginning.
Yes its bugs and balance issues, but the veteran dungeons are supposed to be hard.
Now I rate wayrest sewer as the easiest, BC is far harder,
On the other hand the normal dungeons are fun now.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1
