Please Make PvP Fun Again

Nala_ · November 2014

please do some sort of middle ground with FCs so theres actually people pvping again at all times

Columba · November 2014

Yeah, I think allowing fcs with a radius would prevent the blood porting nonsense.

Ifthir_ESO · November 2014

Are the "bomb groups" crying about FC removals just unfamiliar with soul gems and rezzing their comrades or do bomb groups only worry about AP?

Gooey · November 2014

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Are the "bomb groups" crying about FC removals just unfamiliar with soul gems and rezzing their comrades or do bomb groups only worry about AP?

The "bomb groups" aren't "crying" about FC removals (Again please look past this and look at the issues that are serious like bows and healing ward). The "bomb groups" are "crying" about the fact that lethal arrow heal debuffs are pretty much permanent on their healers and that AoE was heavily nerfed meaning that the biggest zerg wins. Honestly, without "bomb groups" the zerging issues everyone has would be a lot worse. You sir, are welcome.

Columba · November 2014

Agree that healing debuffs shouldnt stack. On the aoe, I saw impulse radius reduces and a bug fixed. I don't see a heavy aoe nerf.

The fc removal requires groups to plan attacks vs. hurl themselves at enemies spamming skills over and over. it's a better game for many of us as a result.

Pixysticks · November 2014

Nerfing oil and removing FC's shouldn't have gotten pushed onto live servers until they removed AoE caps. Now the game is in some weird state of being less fun and permanently lagging.

Gooey · November 2014

Pixysticks wrote: »

Nerfing oil and removing FC's shouldn't have gotten pushed onto live servers until they removed AoE caps. Now the game is in some weird state of being less fun and permanently lagging.

So true, it's the worst PvP I've ever played in my life.

Columba · November 2014

not even close to the worst pvp. Lol. It's the closest thing I've seen to Dark Age ever, and I think Dark Age had the best pvp ever.

Pixysticks · November 2014

Columba wrote: »

not even close to the worst pvp. Lol. It's the closest thing I've seen to Dark Age ever, and I think Dark Age had the best pvp ever.

Yeah, DAoC had really fun PvP, but MMOs back then were really hardcore. The hardcore community in MMOs are the minority nowadays, so if you cater to them you just upset the largest portion of the player base.

Removing FCs completely and nerfing oil without removing AoE caps just promotes zerging, and now there's so many people grouped together because they feel safe in groups and don't want to die, that the servers even laggier than it was before.

The first few days of no FCs were fun, but it's actually hurting the PvP player base. There's less people PvPing now and those people play for less time than they did before. Ninja capping keeps with no one in it is the easiest way to cap them since if you do it right people can't even get there in time to save it.

So right now the most effective options to capture keeps are to Zerg it and lag it out, or PvDoor it before people can get there to defend it. No way to defend a keep vs a ton of people with just a few good players anymore.

They just need to make camps have the option to be Guild or Group specific, as well as making the radius to spawn at a camp it's actual range on the map when you place it, then make camps be 50k AP or rare from PvP bags, and limit the amount that can be placed at a time to 5 or so, instead of 10.

Columba · November 2014

I honestly wish they'd make things other than towers and keeps valuable. That would promote and reward more open field fights. roads, hills, forests, etc. I also think that aoe caps should be removed. Lastly, there should be a happy medium on fcs.

Teargrants · November 2014

We need to earn points for defending the Well Bonus. My guild has trained long and arduously for this. Together, we ensure that Dee Tick always receives prayers at his holy Wells.

Tintinabula · November 2014

Trees and rocks! This will bring back the old game "King of the hill" Make Hills give Aye Pee!

Xsorus · November 2014

Everytime some [snip] muffin in a impulse group claims he's not zerging when he's running with a crap ton of people I can't help but laugh.

I'll give people the benefit of the doubt in this game, and say you can run 12 and it not be a zerg...Simply because the trials are 12 mans...If you're running past that though, you're bloody zerging and you claiming your not because your organized is hilariously stupid. If you ran 16 man organized group in DAOC, you were bloody zerging....

Organization has nothing to do with Zerging. You can be a 100 Man Organized group, and guess what.. you're bloody zerging.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Language]

Mauz · November 2014

Pixysticks wrote: »

Yeah, DAoC had really fun PvP, but MMOs back then were really hardcore. The hardcore community in MMOs are the minority nowadays, so if you cater to them you just upset the largest portion of the player base.

saying this...

Pixysticks wrote: »

They just need to make camps have the option to be Guild or Group specific, as well as making the radius to spawn at a camp it's actual range on the map when you place it, then make camps be 50k AP or rare from PvP bags, and limit the amount that can be placed at a time to 5 or so, instead of 10.

and then posting this...

This would be the final death blow. Yeah, make it Guild or Group specific which targets hardcore players directly. Already like it is now its just as newbe unfriendly as possible. Campaign for new players is completely empty, rediculous upscaling for non vet chars, I've twice dmg and twice hp + 3x more skill points on my vet. they have no chance and die instant are not in group and noone rezzes.

I logged today with my lvl 10 twink into thornblade, was shown as locked->instant invite(?!?) I did the tutorial q to get my skill pt, and was with 750 ap on place 1070. Before 1.5 I was with the full tutorial and 2200 ap on a place somewhere around 4000.

I personally wont log into cyro again. If I want to pvp I log to war thunder which is able to support casual players like me AND hardcore players at the same time.

Varicite · November 2014

Gooey wrote: »

Yeah, DAoC had really fun PvP, but MMOs back then were really hardcore. The hardcore community in MMOs are the minority nowadays, so if you cater to them you just upset the largest portion of the player base.

Maybe this is the issue. I'm an old school player, so I don't mind things taking a little longer and being more rewarding (to me) in the end.

But you're absolutely right that players like me are the minority.

However, I'm not sure that a MMO that provides a throwback to days when AvA was slightly more unforgiving is an automatic failure. It's a niche, for sure, but it certainly has its supporters.

I'm one of them.

The strange thing about players like me, who have been playing MMOs long enough to remember when they were more meaningful, is that we are generally old enough to have good careers now.

And our pockets, they are deep. Not so much w/ the CoD crowd, generally.

VileIntent · November 2014

i am having a ton of fun! love it!

Lava_Croft · November 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Everytime some [snip] muffin in a impulse group claims he's not zerging when he's running with a crap ton of people I can't help but laugh.

I'll give people the benefit of the doubt in this game, and say you can run 12 and it not be a zerg...Simply because the trials are 12 mans...If you're running past that though, you're bloody zerging and you claiming your not because your organized is hilariously stupid. If you ran 16 man organized group in DAOC, you were bloody zerging....

Organization has nothing to do with Zerging. You can be a 100 Man Organized group, and guess what.. you're bloody zerging.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Language]

Sounds like you never played StarCraft and therefore have absolutely no clue what exactly is the Zerg and what the term 'zerging' stands for.

The Zerg excel in throwing massive amounts of low quality, expendable units at the enemy. If you run in an organized group of 100 high quality players, you are not running in a zerg. Just because a group is large does not automagically make them a zerg.

What does make a zerg is having a superior number of *** players and overpowering the enemy with that. Quantity, not quality. Or maybe better said, quality through quantity!

Ifthir_ESO · November 2014

Lava_Croft wrote: »

massive amounts of low quality, expendable units at the enemy

Key point there was massive amounts + expendable, not quality.

With FC changes you can't do this as much, throwing massive amounts (via FC rezzes) of expendable (dying tons) at the enemy.

Columba · November 2014

yes, forward camps were a crutch for players. I like that a little more thought and effort is required to get into fast action. maybe arena play is your style if you want fcs back. Or TF2.

Pixysticks · November 2014

Mauz wrote: »

This would be the final death blow. Yeah, make it Guild or Group specific which targets hardcore players directly. Already like it is now its just as newbe unfriendly as possible. Campaign for new players is completely empty, rediculous upscaling for non vet chars, I've twice dmg and twice hp + 3x more skill points on my vet. they have no chance and die instant are not in group and noone rezzes.

I logged today with my lvl 10 twink into thornblade, was shown as locked->instant invite(?!?) I did the tutorial q to get my skill pt, and was with 750 ap on place 1070. Before 1.5 I was with the full tutorial and 2200 ap on a place somewhere around 4000.

I personally wont log into cyro again. If I want to pvp I log to war thunder which is able to support casual players like me AND hardcore players at the same time.

The option to make it guild or group specific, not ONLY guild or group specific.

Xsorus · November 2014

Lava_Croft wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Everytime some [snip] muffin in a impulse group claims he's not zerging when he's running with a crap ton of people I can't help but laugh.

I'll give people the benefit of the doubt in this game, and say you can run 12 and it not be a zerg...Simply because the trials are 12 mans...If you're running past that though, you're bloody zerging and you claiming your not because your organized is hilariously stupid. If you ran 16 man organized group in DAOC, you were bloody zerging....

Organization has nothing to do with Zerging. You can be a 100 Man Organized group, and guess what.. you're bloody zerging.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Language]

Sounds like you never played StarCraft and therefore have absolutely no clue what exactly is the Zerg and what the term 'zerging' stands for.

The Zerg excel in throwing massive amounts of low quality, expendable units at the enemy. If you run in an organized group of 100 high quality players, you are not running in a zerg. Just because a group is large does not automagically make them a zerg.

What does make a zerg is having a superior number of *** players and overpowering the enemy with that. Quantity, not quality. Or maybe better said, quality through quantity!

A. I've played Starcraft
B. If you don't know what Zerging actually means as an MMO term, don't post about it and make yourself look foolish.

Zerging was co-opted long ago in MMO's to describe one thing, A Massive Enemy force. It has nothing to do with Low quality expendable players in MMOs.

So this has been your lesson of today in MMO terminology.

TheBull · November 2014

3 locks and 31 in queue for DC on a Sunday night.

Semfim · November 2014

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Your not exactly convincing that PvP is better without forward camps, Your saying DC took towers and keeps undefended.

Excellent!

What I'm saying is that we lost dc home keeps due to strategy. It shows that in this system even small groups can make a difference. I know it didnt involve epic fights and it didn't bring a lot of AP for the ones taking the keeps. It wasnt a show of good builds or group organization but it sure as hell paved the way for every DC trying to get out of the scroll gates.

Now, is that of a pvp system for everyone that just wants epic fights? Probably not. Is the "horse simulator" death penalty contrary to a game where you are always "on" (fighting)? Yes it is.

Nevertheless, in this new approach there is a consequence for your success or failure. And if you think horse simulator is a hefty death penalty you should have tried the old MMO's like Asheron's Call where you lost the most valuable items on your inventory and were ported half way across the map where you would arrive naked and bare handed... Even so there was a fully fledged all out pvp server and it was very popular. Go figure!

Mind you, I'm not saying all is good. I understand your gripes with the healing debuffs, but from what I gather its a bug where it stacks up to 100%. In this game it happens, just like sun shield overcharging did, like bolt escape makes you be free from crowd control effects and a number of other stuff...

All in all it will eventually get more balanced, I just hope not more gratuitous.

Columba · November 2014

tonight has highest DC queue I've seen on thorne for months

dcincali · November 2014

It's not just the oil nerfs, or just the FC's being removed that is making PVP not fun, it's the entire direction of the PVP game and lack if insight on what PVP in this game is supposed to be. When you have devs and game designers shaping the game by taking advice from certain guilds, the game will fail. The lack of pvp love from ZOS will kill this game as well. It is already sliding down that slope. We are just here for the ride cause CU isnt out yet.

Lava_Croft · November 2014

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

massive amounts of low quality, expendable units at the enemy

Key point there was massive amounts + expendable, not quality.

With FC changes you can't do this as much, throwing massive amounts (via FC rezzes) of expendable (dying tons) at the enemy.

The quality of the units in comparison to the enemy is also very important, because if they are high quality units, they would not nearly be as expendable and therefore way too expensive to keep throwing at the enemy.

Lava_Croft · November 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Everytime some [snip] muffin in a impulse group claims he's not zerging when he's running with a crap ton of people I can't help but laugh.

I'll give people the benefit of the doubt in this game, and say you can run 12 and it not be a zerg...Simply because the trials are 12 mans...If you're running past that though, you're bloody zerging and you claiming your not because your organized is hilariously stupid. If you ran 16 man organized group in DAOC, you were bloody zerging....

Organization has nothing to do with Zerging. You can be a 100 Man Organized group, and guess what.. you're bloody zerging.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Language]

Sounds like you never played StarCraft and therefore have absolutely no clue what exactly is the Zerg and what the term 'zerging' stands for.

The Zerg excel in throwing massive amounts of low quality, expendable units at the enemy. If you run in an organized group of 100 high quality players, you are not running in a zerg. Just because a group is large does not automagically make them a zerg.

What does make a zerg is having a superior number of *** players and overpowering the enemy with that. Quantity, not quality. Or maybe better said, quality through quantity!

A. I've played Starcraft
B. If you don't know what Zerging actually means as an MMO term, don't post about it and make yourself look foolish.

Zerging was co-opted long ago in MMO's to describe one thing, A Massive Enemy force. It has nothing to do with Low quality expendable players in MMOs.

So this has been your lesson of today in MMO terminology.

To help you out, I'll link you to the top 3 Google results for the query "mmo terminology zerg":

Urban Dictionary:

Nowadays term zerg is used in mmo games to describe force consisted of large group of lower level players (often with only basic equipment) who use numbers rather then strategy to defeat the enemy, therefore requiring no skill. This tactics is commonly known as zerging

Techopedia

Zerg is a slang term for a group of low-level gamers who depend on overwhelming numbers to achieve victory, rather than relying on technique or strategy. The term is most often used in the context of online role-playing and strategy games, but it also applies to multiplayer first-person shooters.

internetslang.com

Defeat enemy by outnumbering rather than strategy or skill

Boom?

Aoe_Barbecue · November 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Everytime some [snip] muffin in a impulse group claims he's not zerging when he's running with a crap ton of people I can't help but laugh.

I'll give people the benefit of the doubt in this game, and say you can run 12 and it not be a zerg...Simply because the trials are 12 mans...If you're running past that though, you're bloody zerging and you claiming your not because your organized is hilariously stupid. If you ran 16 man organized group in DAOC, you were bloody zerging....

Organization has nothing to do with Zerging. You can be a 100 Man Organized group, and guess what.. you're bloody zerging.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Language]

Wtf does this post have anything to do with this thread?

TheBull · November 2014

2 hours later, still 3 locks on a Sunday night.

Insurrektion · November 2014

Alright straight up, here's the deal.

This is Cyrodiil. This map is supposed to be war. That means large groups. I immensely dislike "zerg groups" as a means of combat. In my opinion there should be all types and forms of combat being used, from the archer to the mage to the front line soldier to the healer. Zergballs are nothing more than roving balls of destruction.

That being said, to each his own. The zerg ball should exist if people want to play that way. It should lose out to diversity, in my opinion, but it should exist if people want to do it.

Gank groups should exist. Cutting off supply lines is a facet of war. Without FCs, gank groups are no longer doing the enemy a favor, which is awesome. The operative word here is war. Gank groups should not be out looking for other gank groups. They should be a tool of a much larger vision. The only thing gunning for a gank group should be a bunch of people who got ganked and are forming up to smash through the enemy group on their way to the party.

Soul Gems sold for AP are needed, ASAP. The removal of FCs has definitely made battles more conclusive in a shorter amount of time. The first couple days after the removal, a lot of people were tentative on how to react and I saw very little action to take keeps from any side during the couple hours I played that first day. Now it appears the meta is learning to adapt and zergs are back, to try to let these more decisive battles end in their favor.

My ultimate point is that "zergs" need to stay. It is the essence of what Cyrodiil's style of pvp is meant to be. Large groups vs Large groups. This is not an arena. This is not whack-a-mole (if you're the type that sits on a road for 20 minutes waiting for someone to ride along on their horse). This is not a "battleground" of 20v20.

This is a war.

If what you're looking for is arena action, petition ZOS to implement it. If you want capture the flag or zone control, petition ZOS to implement it.

Let Cyrodiil be what it was meant to be. Don't try to make it something it isn't just for the benefit of a few who want a different type of pvp. Let ZOS deliver on their promises of large scale combat. If large scale combat is what you want, but you don't want it to lag and blame the zergs, I can't help you, because zerg == large scale combat. The real issue at hand is the lag. Zergs aren't the cause.

Personally I don't know what causes the lag. Is it the way the skills are programmed so they take up too much memory on the servers? Does ZOS have an inferior ISP? Are the servers themselves inferior? We haven't really gotten a clear cut answer as to why. Sometimes the large scale battles cause me to lag and sometimes they don't. There has to be something to it, but don't blame factions for playing pvp the way it was designed to be played.