Yesterday I farmed Veteran Dungeons after 1 hour of pvp.

I 100% agree with Abraxus.
During that 1 hour of pvp I did I died at 6 keepflags vs aoe groups. Before the patch I might have been able to defend longer so some ppl might have been able to defend.
Overall it is just plain boring now in pvp. Zeni should just implement a campaign without camps and one without. Then ppl could choose for themselves and maybe it would be even train-free on the campless campaign.Everyone would be happy.

Domander wrote: »

I've noticed a lot of smaller fights, people attacking/defending resources, fighting in between keeps. It's fun.

This.

But the sejanus/alessia thing is getting real old fast.

stylepolice wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I don't think everyone is understanding the cascading effect this is having on the game.

The scrubs, newbies and just overall bad players were using up the majority of the camps. Since all they do is die constantly and will have to keep running back (and usually ganked on the way) they'll tire of Cyrodiil first and quit.

Then the "Farm" groups who are used to farming those bads will get tired of cyrodiil because the easy action of slaughtering the plebs of Cyrodiil will get tired and quit Cyrodiil.

Last will be the gankers....less people...more time between each gank and Cyrodiil becomes a ghost town.

You left one aspect out: as soon as death means you are out of the fight (because in the time it would take you to get back the fight is over), then most people will roll ranged chars. And many players are fine with plinking out some quick-shot arrows from farthest range, hoping their targets might die some day.
I always thought Zeni Devs had learned at least that much from DAoC and the tower-/brige-/keep-camping archer-groups who picked fights against solos but hid away from any real fight.

Even DAoC was faster paced then Cyrodiil is now, because of 2k rezz-range, insta-rezz, targeted heals and perma-speed 7.

FCs have been one of the basic mechanics of AvA and taking it away needs to be compensated in some way. In the meantime I (melee-full-tank) have moved in at Alessia Keep, stocked up on Siege Engines and when the keep falls - I go read a book hoping Zeni will change something to make AvA fun again before my sub runs out.

I dont think people will reroll I think they will just give up and quit like me and countless others.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Well, exactly as I said, basically its bombers complaining about not being able to brainless solo bomb into anything, even if its 50 people, without repercussions.

You`re not some kind of special snowflake, Abraxus, you just ran into everything that moved while spamming blazing shield. Same as pretty much any DK.

Totally brainless, because camps allowed you to do that without having any downtime inbetween your "hey lets jump into 20 people and see how many die until I can respawn instantly and to the same again... and again..." adventures.

I dont think thats a "playstyle", that was an perverted abomination which let people carry their battleground lazy attitude over to RvR.

You're missing something very basic. There are melee classes and melee builds in this game. They HAVE to run into things. That's their setup, that's their purpose and they will die alot more than ranged classes with escapes as a result. It's logical

So let's see, there's a problem with trains running in spamming Impulse, there's a problem with DKs charging in and spamming Talons & Inhale, there's a problem with Templar's running in and spamming Blazing Shield. I'm seeing a pattern...

So basically there's a problem with anybody getting in the face of anybody, right? So we should all just sit back and pewpew? I don't think that's a "playstyle" that's a perverted abomination for people who got too used to playing COD.

And don't tell me that's not what what happens, cause that is exactly what happens now. People standing off cause no-one wants to die. Hurray, how fun!

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Totally brainless, because camps allowed you to do that without having any downtime inbetween your "hey lets jump into 20 people and see how many die until I can respawn instantly and to the same again... and again..." adventures.

Those same camps let the players get back and try to wipe some of those bomb grps the next time - I don't get how you can totally fail to see this aspect of FCs through all the tears from getting bombed (while clustering together instead of spreading out, moving and peeling away on the bomb-grp).

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Well, exactly as I said, basically its bombers complaining about not being able to brainless solo bomb into anything, even if its 50 people, without repercussions.

You`re not some kind of special snowflake, Abraxus, you just ran into everything that moved while spamming blazing shield. Same as pretty much any DK.

Totally brainless, because camps allowed you to do that without having any downtime inbetween your "hey lets jump into 20 people and see how many die until I can respawn instantly and to the same again... and again..." adventures.

I dont think thats a "playstyle", that was an perverted abomination which let people carry their battleground lazy attitude over to RvR.

I don't understand this argument, why is using an FC "brainless" etc. It just sounds like a lazy and derogatory argument to me.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You`re not some kind of special snowflake, Abraxus, you just ran into everything that moved while spamming blazing shield. Same as pretty much any DK.

Totally brainless, because camps allowed you to do that without having any downtime inbetween your "hey lets jump into 20 people and see how many die until I can respawn instantly and to the same again... and again..." adventures.

I dont think thats a "playstyle", that was an perverted abomination which let people carry their battleground lazy attitude over to RvR.

In the defence of the snowflake, AoE-tank is suppose to be a playstyle. Being a Blazing Shield popping, mele templar should also be a playstyle in PvP. That's not so viable any more, you blow up from 10 Snipes just looking at the enemy (where's my Reflective Scales?).

Removal of camps is making everyone use max range spec's in PvP. As mele right now, you only get seconds of fighting and minutes of riding. Dying means something, sounds good. But it also promotes a very lazy playstyle, possible the most *** one so far in mmorpg history: huntard stand back pew-pew.

Maybe you find it dynamic and skill-based? Loads of ranged playing it safe, farming the meles in the middle? I think it's about as brainless as Abraxus @King's again

Thechemicals wrote: »

I am enjoying the changes. I hope they never bring back camps. It wasnt even just about trolls camps or that every keep had a camp up for constant hardswitches, but the fact that 24-48 people would suicide i.e. bloodport to get where they want to go. That is fail and if you support that, you are weaksauce. I had to leave a very good guild because the guild leader had a bloodporting addiction that happened every 15-20 minutes. It was stupid and this is what people were doing for months.

Forward camps would never work because they promoted *constant suicide, and while you might have gotten used to killing yourself for fast travel, it was never actually a fun thing, just something you did because you had to.

Your post ignores the 32,827 threads created on the subject

Almost every person that who staunchly supports the existence of FCs, acknowledged that suicide travel was ridiculous. The very first thing everyone said was that you shouldn't be able to spawn at the FC if outside its circle.

If your arms hurts you go to the doc to mend it, you don't chop it off. ZOS did. It was a lazy, low-cost approach to a problem with multiple better solutions.

I have done nothing but PvP for 7 months and I totally agree with the OP and others. PvP over the last few days has become stale and boring.
I thought at first this would be a great change to stop the blobs and to a degree it has but its also stopped most of the other action aswell. I logged off early last night for the first time in a while and haven't logged in today and I think I don't want to.
Its fortunate for ZoS that my monthly sub renewed 3 days ago so they have had my money for this month but I for one can categorically say if this doesnt change they wont get the next monthly sub.
Instead of Getting rid of camps to solve your performance problems sort your abilities, bring in the promised AoE cap fix and get the zergbuster ability in NOW and put camps back or figure something out with camps because this will kill and is killing PvP.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Erlex wrote: »

Im curious of these people that say "Omg there are no keep sieges" - How many of you have gathered up a raid of people and went to attack one? I mean, if you run from your farthest friendly keep to the closest enemy keep that can't take more than 2 minutes. If you are able to start a keep siege every 2 minutes from the time you die...how is it that there are no keep sieges? Seems to me that people are just expecting ZoS to start sieges for them that they can show up at and flail their body into and hope some alliance points stick.

It's not that simple Erlexx. The incentive to sieging has been greatly diminished.

If you ride up to a front-line keep and try to put down siege, the defenders can repeatedly sally out and zerg you before the wall drops below 50%. They can keep respawning and throwing numbers at you while if you die you have to take a 2 min ride (solo now) to get there and pray you don't get ganked on the way. The fact you cant put a camp down at least on a resource gives the defenders a huge initial advantage.

If you decide to push any keeps behind the front-line there are different dynamics to consider. You will 8/10 times take the keep via PvWalling very quickly. The "reward" for the boring ride and PvWall was usually a prolonged defence and the promise of a large defence tick which was only possible thanks to FCs.

In short, the riding has increased while the rewards have decreased. And that's guild mentality, I'm not even gonna touch on small groups or solo players of which ESO had (still has) hundreds but they now find they can't really do much besides ganking or bridgefights.

So people prefer to set up and fight at alessia bridge. Call it lazy or whatever you want. Fact is, that's what happens.

How is it that these defenders get into the keep to kill you? And how are they rezzing once you attack the keep?

Try splitting up and taking all the resources at once - then attacking the keep. They can't port or rez into the keep at this point while you beat on the door/wall. Once it gets to 50% (May be wrong on that %) it stays under siege whether they get a resource back or not.

Not getting enough kills because people aren't porting in to kill? Try killing all of the people riding their horse to the keep. Those people will still want in that keep to defend and get RPs, so punish them for it. Don't let them inside.

The issue you are describing has nothing to do with "not enough fighting" or anything like that. People are annoyed they aren't making as many alliance points as before. 2 Ways to fix this that have absolutely nothing to do with forward camps - raise the point gain for kills/defense/attack or just deal with lower gains that don't really mean much of anything anyway.

I have always said that alliance points for kills is extremely *** and should be adjusted - just now its actually noticeable because you don't farm 1000 kills in 20 minutes sitting at a keep half afk.

k2blader wrote: »

Also, the lag and min-max groups are still happening so not sure what could be considered better about that. The main difference now is the flow of the game is much more slow than before and about 1/3 or more of the time is spent not in action, i.e. riding/sneaking/waiting for others in the group to get to an objective. That's just a lot of time taken away from what's actually fun, for many people.

Yes many people find the constant and immediate action that FCs allowed, very fun. I understand that. The problem is that it also took away enjoyment from PvP for lots of other folks, like me. I hated the fact that the actual map was not being used. People would just port to the nearest camp outside of a besieged keep. And when they die they just respawn there, along with everyone else. I hated the endless zerg fights requiring no skill and where my abilities didn't work and where I died to stuff I didn't see myself get hit by.

On thornblade EU, primetime you could ride around the map twice and not encounter one single enemy or roaming/traveling group. That is because all action was focussed on the small battlegrounds: Keeps, FCs and their direct surroundings. I'm not lying, I tried it more than once. Usually ended up logging out in frustration.

Myself, I love to ride around Cyrodiil (in group or solo) and find some random encounters for a change. Just some small scale grp vs grp or 1v1 PvP. Sure, there were dueling guilds but it simply isn't the same. Its a totally different setting. I love being able to do stuff with a small group/solo outside of the big sieges that makes an impact on the battle. Now that is possible. Right now there's way more styles of PvP that occur naturally and offer more different ways of having fun. The big sieges are still there. They just require a more thorough strategy to sustain. Something else than just spawning endless FCs. Overall it is just a more complete battlefield at the moment.

Tintinabula wrote: »

If Brian Wheeler is seriously stoked about this change then he is not playing his own game.

Sieges have dropped to one per hour if that.

Yep. All you have to do is look at the map. It's far less dynamic. FCs, for all their flaws gave mobility. Mobility creates action and strategic choice. Mobility was a key difference between WWI (trench warfare) and WWII (rapid maneuver tank battles).

I don't know about you, but trench warfare + horse simulator is not as interesting to me.

purgation wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

If Brian Wheeler is seriously stoked about this change then he is not playing his own game.

Sieges have dropped to one per hour if that.

Yep. All you have to do is look at the map. It's far less dynamic. FCs, for all their flaws gave mobility. Mobility creates action and strategic choice. Mobility was a key difference between WWI (trench warfare) and WWII (rapid maneuver tank battles).

I don't know about you, but trench warfare + horse simulator is not as interesting to me.

Trench warfare = walking on foot.
Rapid maneuver tank battles = Rapid maneuver horse traveling. Wait.. what? That's in the game!

Nowhere in WWII were there people teleporting all over the place. Not really a good example.

Koensol wrote: »

Trench warfare = walking on foot.
Rapid maneuver tank battles = Rapid maneuver horse traveling. Wait.. what? That's in the game!

Nowhere in WWII were there people teleporting all over the place. Not really a good example.

Attack of captain literal.

Mobility creates dynamic strategies. Forward camps created mobility. Less mobility = less dynamic.

My question to you is why you hate FCs so much. (and believe me, I agree it's a flawed mechanic). As far as I could ever tell, there are three types who really think this is an improvement:

1. People who mainly like to gank
2. People who want to be able to pull-off sneak attack PvDoor battles every time
3. People who have some philosophical problems with no penalty for death (even if it encourages aggression and makes the game more fun)

I sympathize with 3, but really don't think that removing FCs improved the game (particularly since there were no compensating changes in other areas)

purgation wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Trench warfare = walking on foot.
Rapid maneuver tank battles = Rapid maneuver horse traveling. Wait.. what? That's in the game!

Nowhere in WWII were there people teleporting all over the place. Not really a good example.

Attack of captain literal.

Mobility creates dynamic strategies. Forward camps created mobility. Less mobility = less dynamic.

My question to you is why you hate FCs so much. (and believe me, I agree it's a flawed mechanic). As far as I could ever tell, there are three types who really think this is an improvement:

1. People who mainly like to gank
2. People who want to be able to pull-off sneak attack PvDoor battles every time
3. People who have some philosophical problems with no penalty for death (even if it encourages aggression and makes the game more fun)

I sympathize with 3, but really don't think that removing FCs improved the game (particularly since there were no compensating changes in other areas)

The main things I hate about FCs is that they make the whole of Cyrodiil mostly a ghost town. Fights only tend to happen at the keeps, where everyone endlessly respawns. Which leads me to reason nr 2. I hate that FCs create a never ending zergball lagfest inside a keep. Nothing you do works... weapons swap, abilities.. nothing. And I HATE dying to the invisible batswarms.