This is why your daily system is garbage compared to tokens and a vendor

tordr86b16_ESO · November 2014

The system is fine. You do X amount of work and you're guaranteed to get x random item.

Daverios · November 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

The system is fine. You do X amount of work and you're guaranteed to get x random item.

Any system that operates with that ruleset is broken I assure you.

Imagine working for 2 weeks and getting a random paycheck. Or oh how about we just random 1-30 and pay that as a sub cost. Brilliant.

liquid_wolf · November 2014

Not in Play-based systems. This isn't work, and if it is you are doing it wrong.

Diablo games being the most notorious random reward provider in gaming history.

You don't deserve something for playing... you get something for playing. Otherwise lotteries would have more players if it was just a matter of time.

Daverios · November 2014

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Not in Play-based systems. This isn't work, and if it is you are doing it wrong.

Diablo games being the most notorious random reward provider in gaming history.

You don't deserve something for playing... you get something for playing. Otherwise lotteries would have more players if it was just a matter of time.

Two things.

1) diablo is free to play and was structured around a real money auction house...that later fell flat. Still they raked it in the beginning.
2) I am not playing diablo if I wanted a random loot grind I might.

Well third thing

If ZOS wants to make an official statement they intend for a random loot grind hell in thier sub based game I will gladly cancel right now and walk away and never return. But I bet a whole lot of people walk with me.

liquid_wolf · November 2014

Daverios wrote: »

Two things.

1) diablo is free to play
2) I am not playing diablo if I wanted a random loot grind I might.

Well third thing

If ZOS wants to make an official statement they intend for a random loot grind in thier sub based game I will gladly cancel right now and walk away. But I bet a whole lot of people walk with me.

This hasn't been out a week. You already know it won't stay like this forever, because players won't do it if it isn't rewarding enough.

This is a brand new system... leave some constructive feedback and give it a month. If they don't improve it, or change it to something you don't like then move on.

Right now, you are simply being abusive, and will only get abusive responses back.

AlnilamE · November 2014

The game already has a token system for sets. If you go to Cyrodiil and get enough AP, you will be able to buy sets from the elite gear vendors.

I would go give that a try and see what you think.

Daverios · November 2014

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Two things.

1) diablo is free to play
2) I am not playing diablo if I wanted a random loot grind I might.

Well third thing

If ZOS wants to make an official statement they intend for a random loot grind in thier sub based game I will gladly cancel right now and walk away. But I bet a whole lot of people walk with me.

This hasn't been out a week. You already know it won't stay like this forever, because players won't do it if it isn't rewarding enough.

This is a brand new system... leave some constructive feedback and give it a month. If they don't improve it, or change it to something you don't like then move on.

Right now, you are simply being abusive, and will only get abusive responses back.

In a month my sub will be dead and gone. And they will have missed an opportunity. You are more than welcome to not read my thread or reply or attempt to bait.

If you said your peice why are you still replying anyway? Perhaps you are being abusive yourself.

xaraan · November 2014

That undaunted weaver set actually wouldn't be horrible for a nightblade build I've run from time to time. I tend to ambush in, hit the mob with twin slashes to start a bleed effect then start to alternate light attack/surprise attack until they are in execute range. Best option for this is wearing light armor, at least a five piece with two medium, b/c that will boost your nightblade spell using powers like ambush, suprise attack and impale. So it would give a good boost to the light attack part of the rotation.

It's definitely not a piece of armor that would have wide spread use though.

But I'd rather have random traits than a set trait, at least you'll have a chance to find the armor and trait combo you want (in drop or in store since it's not BoP), whereas if it only came with exploration, then you are stuck with that.

Also, considering one of the undaunted passives is about combining armor types, perhaps that a theme with the undaunted - a bit of a mix and match going on.

jaebdub · November 2014

Daverios wrote: »

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Two things.

1) diablo is free to play
2) I am not playing diablo if I wanted a random loot grind I might.

Well third thing

If ZOS wants to make an official statement they intend for a random loot grind in thier sub based game I will gladly cancel right now and walk away. But I bet a whole lot of people walk with me.

This hasn't been out a week. You already know it won't stay like this forever, because players won't do it if it isn't rewarding enough.

This is a brand new system... leave some constructive feedback and give it a month. If they don't improve it, or change it to something you don't like then move on.

Right now, you are simply being abusive, and will only get abusive responses back.

In a month my sub will be dead and gone. And they will have missed an opportunity. You are more than welcome to not read my thread or reply or attempt to bait.

If you said your peice why are you still replying anyway? Perhaps you are being abusive yourself.

I will continue to do this everyday until I get lucky enough to get the Blood Spawn shoulders. I don't really care how long it takes because it keeps me engaged in the game. Armor has been so easy to come by up until now and this really changes the game up.

You do not need any of this armor. There are close to a hundred other sets you can get through crafting/trials/dungeons, etc. Work towards those if that's what you want. I will continue to grind like a true MMO raider for that lucky drop!

Ragefist · November 2014

Tokens? No thanks, F2P crap breaks my immersion!!!

SteveCampsOut · November 2014

If I log in today at all it'll be to check on my research statuses,

tordr86b16_ESO · November 2014

wtf? why am i getting vr3 items on a vr14 character?!

Daverios · November 2014

Ragefist wrote: »

Tokens? No thanks, F2P crap breaks my immersion!!!

Random keys opening random chests is exactly as you put it 'FTP crap' all that is missing is a button to 'Purchase more keys'. Give me a break how can you not see that? I suggest downloading any mobile game and seeing for yourself. Personally I do not think that button is far behind with what I am seeing since coming back.

Tokens and gated progression is subscription based.

whsprwind · November 2014

Although OP has a lot of negativity in the way the their posts are presented, I feel that there is value to them and ZOS should really take some of them into consideration.

Trials and trials gear were something like gated progression and there weren't many complaints that I know of till now. It was difficult content but at least at the end of completing a difficult encounter you can look forward to a 100% chance to a set piece, even if it might not be the one you wanted.

Currently you might spend 0-30soul gems, pots, and most importantly TIME, and guess how you will feel if you open a GOLD chest to receive ONE ornate purple item???

Faulgor · November 2014

Daverios wrote: »

Tokens and gated progression is subscription based.

Content gates are quintessential for F2P. They let you do something "for free" in a given timeframe, and if you want to do or get more, you'll have to pay.
Earn 100 Gummy-Tokens from your daily quest! ... or buy as many as you want from the exchange for Gummy-Coins!

Free and open excess without gates is the subscription model, which means there has to be RNG to control the item faucets into the game.

Daverios · November 2014

Faulgor wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Tokens and gated progression is subscription based.

Free and open excess without gates is the subscription model, which means there has to be RNG to control the item faucets into the game.

RNG has no place in gearing of an rpg. It goes against the very nature. It goes against risk vs. reward it goes against putting in effort to achieve a goal. All you are left with is a bastardized lotto system. Many many MMO have been very successful using currency / token systems and proves it works.

I hope you are ready to buy your gummy keys for your random chest because that is not far behind. The writing is on the wall if you know how to read it. Foos-Ro-Microtranction.

Still_Mind · November 2014

Stopped reading at "NO BOWS".

Also, no to WOWifying. As long as the random items are tradeable, I don't see much of an issue from in-game economy standpoint.

Faulgor · November 2014

Daverios wrote: »

RNG has no place in gearing of an rpg. It goes against the very nature.

Yeah you lost me with the first sentence already.

Daverios wrote: »

I hope you are ready to buy your gummy keys for your random chest because that is not far behind. The writing is on the wall if you know how to read it. Foos-Ro-Microtranction.

The point is that there is no F2P MMO without gated content, while that is not a necessity for the subscription model. If there is any indication that ESO is already implementing F2P mechanics, it's the fact there are daily quests, not that keys and boxes are involved in the reward structure.
But it won't go F2P, so that's irrelevant anyway.

Nihil · November 2014

Daverios wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Tokens and gated progression is subscription based.

Free and open excess without gates is the subscription model, which means there has to be RNG to control the item faucets into the game.

RNG has no place in gearing of an rpg. It goes against the very nature. It goes against risk vs. reward it goes against putting in effort to achieve a goal. All you are left with is a bastardized lotto system. Many many MMO have been very successful using currency / token systems and proves it works.

I hope you are ready to buy your gummy keys for your random chest because that is not far behind. The writing is on the wall if you know how to read it. Foos-Ro-Microtranction.

Just random information, RNG is actually the bases behind most RPG games. DnD uses rng all the time in loot tables and determining what vendors will sell. RPGs from back when I use to play more counsel games were very heavily dependent on RNG drops. Heck you could also call Destiny's weekly vendor RNG as players wont know week to week what he will carry. So I will have to disagree with your interpretation on what has place in an RPG.

But with that I also have nothing completely against the concept for a token system, but it would have to be done right. WIth the new scaling of the dungeon the concept of risk vs reward is very hard to determine. I could go in as a v14 with a v1 as a leader, my risk is really low, the V1 leader risk is fairly low... so how would you determine the correct value of points to give? I really shouldn't even earn a fraction of the points that I should get from running a V12 dungeon. And the V1 really shouldn't earn as much as if he ran with all V1's.

If you give to little amount of tokens then players will be frustrated as they need to play for "months" to get an item, if you give to much you risk the content expiring to soon too. (also all sets should not be obtained this way, having specific dungeon sets that only drop off that dungeon gives a reason to playing those dungeons specifically)

The item you also got could be very beneficial to some builds out there. There are builds that do use both resources effectively, while it might not work for the build you want to play there will be a lot of sets out there that will. A lot of which can be obtained without RNG.

Artis · November 2014

I agree with OP mostly. However, I just wanted to say that bow dps is not that bad as you would think. I saw people wielding other weapons and dealing less damage than some archers.
Not so long ago, I was helping someone to finish normal DSA as a tank. Joined them at Stage 7, I think. We had stamina dps. At the last boss he or she was using a bow not to be in melee range. Killed the boss. What else do you want?

Sure, if you talk about some really really hardcore things, where a group need a lot of dps, then the bow being sub par would be noticeable, but in most cases it's not that bad.

Just saying.

Koensol · November 2014

Every single dev company makes the same mistake when they first implement stuff like this. When will they ever learn that rng SUCKS!? Pretty damn hard as well. We do not want to see our efforts be in vain. We would like meaningfull rewards. I understand you do not want to overreward players, but then at least (like OP said) give us something similar to tokens, to make our own choice of rewards in the end. This will add a carrot on a stick for players to work towards, and will make sure people will do the dailies and dungeons a LOT more.

Please just look at how it went in SWTOR with their rng mess at launch. At least they got it in the end and gave people the freedom to choose their own rewards. Stop punishing players for playing your game ZOS. Itemization in this game is an utter mess and it needs to be looked at. It's not that bad to "steal" a mechanic from the wowclone games.

Ninnghizhidda · November 2014

Daverios wrote: »

If you ask me this is the kind of thing I would expect in a free to play game. Random of random of random goodies.

Anyone else agree?

Actually, this doesn't happen not even in a "F2P game". Not really. As an example, I will use Tera, which I have been playing since pre-launch too, and is a "Korean grinder", now F2P, and with a RNG element that "reigns supreme".

So, you do have all kinds of dailies, so you can complete them, and yes you can obtain tokens towards gear, mostly armour and weapons, but also jewelry. So, what you do receive?

You receive the specific piece you require, for your class and the purpose you prefer (say, either dps or tank / aggro piece, if there is the choice). This item then comes with random stats, but it is the one you require and can use for your class. Those random stats can be re-rolled, it might be a tedious process sometimes, but it can be done, and you can end up with an item with "perfect stats" or the ones you really prefer.

In effect, you work towards a goal, which is to acquire the item you need and be able to modify it the way you need. You certainly do NOT trash the item, because it just happened to be completely irrelevant to what you expected.

I should add, that you can not really obtain any "uber" items that way, so no one would be "upset" about people "[snip]" (pardon the expression) their way through dailies to acquire obscenely good gear. You can only obtain basic or, at best, "medium" quality gear.

I brought this example up, just to show how an "inferior" (some could say crappy) "money grabbing" game "where devs don't give a flying", functions. Except, this game actually functions pretty well, whether you like this type of games or not.

And all this compares to the awesomeness of ESO (or rather, what it SHOULD have been). Makes me sad to see a world class AAA game with huge resources, budget, and I dare even say talented people, behind it, actually screw up with stuff like this, stuff which should have been pretty simple to get right and make work. Is it really such a huge task? Sometimes I get the impression that they do these "screw ups" on purpose.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Inappropriate Content]

Nihil · November 2014

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

If you ask me this is the kind of thing I would expect in a free to play game. Random of random of random goodies.

Anyone else agree?

Actually, this doesn't happen not even in a "F2P game". Not really. As an example, I will use Tera, which I have been playing since pre-launch too, and is a "Korean grinder", now F2P, and with a RNG element that "reigns supreme".

So, you do have all kinds of dailies, so you can complete them, and yes you can obtain tokens towards gear, mostly armour and weapons, but also jewelry. So, what you do receive?

You receive the specific piece you require, for your class and the purpose you prefer (say, either dps or tank / aggro piece, if there is the choice). This item then comes with random stats, but it is the one you require and can use for your class. Those random stats can be re-rolled, it might be a tedious process sometimes, but it can be done, and you can end up with an item with "perfect stats" or the ones you really prefer.

In effect, you work towards a goal, which is to acquire the item you need and be able to modify it the way you need. You certainly do NOT trash the item, because it just happened to be completely irrelevant to what you expected.

I should add, that you can not really obtain any "uber" items that way, so no one would be "upset" about people "Chinese slaving" (pardon the expression) their way through dailies to acquire obscenely good gear. You can only obtain basic or, at best, "medium" quality gear.

I brought this example up, just to show how an "inferior" (some could say crappy) "money grabbing" game "where devs don't give a flying", functions. Except, this game actually functions pretty well, whether you like this type of games or not.

And all this compares to the awesomeness of ESO (or rather, what it SHOULD have been). Makes me sad to see a world class AAA game with huge resources, budget, and I dare even say talented people, behind it, actually screw up with stuff like this, stuff which should have been pretty simple to get right and make work. Is it really such a huge task? Sometimes I get the impression that they do these "screw ups" on purpose.

Like you said about tera tho, those dailies didn't give you the best gear. (I left Tera shortly after the three faction war thing came out) The best gear was highly RNG, where you had to obtain quills, and get drops, and RNG crafting gatherable, to craft (non tradeable crafting so required max crafting although easy once they introduced crafting quests). The rerolling of stats for ejewelry also came way after the launch in america (they took it out for the American port for some reason) and was only introduced later. The RNG also associated with leveling gear up to max level was rediculious (all of this was before it went F2P as well). Add in the masterwork scrolls and having those proc then...

In comparison ESO has a crafting system that gives you close to the best gear, and an upgrading system where you can completely negate RNG by getting multitudes of tempers... the rng from dungeons is really the only RNG in this game, and with crafting giving really good gear, it makes it something that people can still work for, but not needed to progress.

Reilech · November 2014

What happens, if you are able to get the best item for your build for sure within X days? How many different equipments will be used? If anybody is able to get anything without RNG within a reasonabe time: how do you want do establish a market or crafting system?

Do you want a "market" like in Counter Strike? I may be wrong, but this could change the player base.

Cherryblossom · November 2014

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

You're V3 and got a V3 piece of gear and complaining that its garbage? How about you go get to V14 instead of complaining on forums. Do you not understand what gear scaling to your level is?

Not only that, when champion system is out everything will be level 50, its not like it even matters.

I think the actual issue is it's light armour boosting Stamina, the level is not an issue.
I think the OP is pointing out that if all the stats of the armour are random the chances of getting something useable is very unlikely as there are too many variables

Armour type: Light, Medium or Heavy
Trait: Powered, charged, precise, infused, defending, training, sharpened, weighted, nirnhorned!!
Enchantment:Stamina, health and magica
Set Bonus: not sure how many different types

So with all these Variables what are the chances of getting something your like to use rather than the standard part crafted and know set bonus!

I would like to see some of this gear, but since the grouping tool is broken it's unlikely....

Xeres14 · November 2014

I haven't done the daily system yet. Random drops as loot from bosses I can see. The rewards from these quests do not necessarily need to be random. The currency system does have a drawback - each piece you want will take longer to get than getting lucky in the loot lotto.

But the OP's point is valid and should be implemented.

Pmarsico9 · November 2014

It's not just RNG, the sets themselves suck.

There's major price nonsense going on with rings and necks for VR12+ and there's an extreme dearth of sets like the Warlock that are actually very good.

A token system with class-specific sets would go miles. They can roll out sets on separate tokens for the small population of players that actually do run trials equivalent to the best gear in the game.

It helps mains and it helps alts.

zaria · November 2014

Three ways of doing this:
1: you buy an semi random item, this is worse situation than today.
Yes chances for getting something good is far higher but you have to work hard for the item.
2: You can buy unique sets you only get with this currency, this has the downside that people who don't run dungeons every day will not get the set before new sets are introduced, no need to buy before you can get all 5 pieces.
3 you can buy dropped sets like warlock, this make the currency very valuable so it has to be hard to buy anything.

Now have fun balancing this so everybody is happy

Pmarsico9 · November 2014

zaria wrote: »

2: You can buy unique sets you only get with this currency, this has the downside that people who don't run dungeons every day will not get the set before new sets are introduced, no need to buy before you can get all 5 pieces.

So sick of this argument in every MMO. "Oh wah, I miss out on 10-20% extra theoretical DPS because I'm a tier behind."

So what? The content has to be balanced around that? The content right now can't even be competitively done by DPS templars as it stands. They are miles behind the other classes DPS-wise. So the logic of some sorc or DK whining that they can't zerg-get sets is pointless.

That's exactly the right way to do this and I don't even log in every day. I won't care if I'm behind. It gives you something to work towards with at least a reliable way to attain it.

This issue only exists because people and developers cave and feed into it. If people enjoy the game they'll play it. But there should be a reliable reward system that people will want if they have to go through the logistics of forming a group and then coordinating group mechanics to get it. Not everybody is in some bleeding edge guild. Nor do they want to be.

kwisatz · November 2014

I dont even played WoW and I do hate the token systems.

I saw it in GW2 and it litteraly sucks. RNG give some emotion and realism, some "maybe today is the day I get the awesome stuff we all want to have" feeling that is so much funnier than just collect tokens.

If people think the reward no worth the time invested, simple, dont do dailies. Dailies are not a work, dailies are not an obligation, they are here for fun and challenge...