Zenimax does not have a game that supports having no camps

Malveria · November 2014

1) Keeps are being taken too quickly. The walls drop too fast, port is cut too quickly without us knowing what's going on. Zerging or ninjaing is now the go-to for keep strats.

2) Defending keeps is nigh unto impossible if you're not already at it. A frontline force can't relocate to defend home keeps. Brindle, Dragonclaw and Drakelowe are as good as gone as soon as they flag.

3) Combat ressing makes people completely vulnerable. Even with the passives, the channel time is so long. Someone is completely defenseless when they res, and someone else defending them is take out of the fight.

4) People will be reticent to move from keeps if they own it/are defending Emperor etc.

5) The distance to run between keeps (Res to seige) is huge, always has been. Horse simulator 2014.

Remove the camps, sure, but give us the means to work around that. Don't just take something that your game was designed around. Make keeps harder to take. Make resources a steady respawn point at keeps. Create locations that can be captured and held by a small force for people to res at. Make the NPCs harder. Make walls stronger. Make keeps flag sooner, but cut off spawn later. Please. Something.

This game is not designed around not having an immediate res point. This is bugged camps all over again guys, and we all knew how happy we were with that.

jkirchner71ub17_ESO2 · November 2014

Yes the way Zeni removed FCs, albeit warranted with the plague of issues around them, was RECKLESS. They simply pushed the ez-mode on this one instead of considering the various issues players have been pointing out for months, even those in support of the removal of FCs. Many EXPERIENCED PvP players had given a plethora of great ideas for how to compensate for the removal of FCs. Many wanted keeps to be beefed up along with the NPCs. Transit to remain open longer to allow a defense to be mounted. Soul gems to be added to more of the "rewards for the worthy" mails as we know battlefield rezzing will be more important. Flagging of keeps to happen sooner but not compromise transit. Not to mention a ton of ideas of ways to continue to employ FCs in different ways. I don't mind the removal of FCs but not the way Zeni did this.

So now we will have MONTHS of threads on keep health, needing transit open longer to allow even a meager defense to be mounted and so forth. Way to go Zenimax

you just gave zerg balls more than enough with this update to dominate the maps of Cyrodiil. Change is always hard but nothing like jamming it down the throats of your paying customers with little to no warning to allow for the gag reflex

driosketch · November 2014

Malveria wrote: »

This game is not designed around not having an immediate res point. This is bugged camps all over again guys, and we all knew how happy we were with that.

I feel like you are using happy ironically here. Many who advocated for the camp removal do however speak fondly of that time. I would also have preferred a less extreme solution, but what's done is done. Now to see how things work out. And I'm at 9% download... I'm probably not going to make it in tonight.

Malveria wrote: »

Remove the camps, sure, but give us the means to work around that. Don't just take something that your game was designed around. Make keeps harder to take. Make resources a steady respawn point at keeps. Create locations that can be captured and held by a small force for people to res at. Make the NPCs harder. Make walls stronger. Make keeps flag sooner, but cut off spawn later. Please. Something.

Because they are the same in the Non Vet Campaign, making NPCs harder isn't going to work for me. Resource respawn, if limited to a given radius, could work. Maybe something with the tower where destroying it would also end the respawn point on that resource. Or what about having to aggro the mages on the transit shrine in the inner keep to break the link, if you haven't captured all the resources first. That way the first resource flip or the flaming keep icon would alert defenders of their window to get to the keep while the transit link is still up, instead of the alert and the link being broken happening at the same time.

Malveria · November 2014

Not to mention you shouldn't be able to two-shot anyone in this game anymore. Especially not if you can just disappear afterwards.

rtc07 · November 2014

I'm not sure how much you played after the patch today and what your experience was, but I'll give mine. I played for two hours this evening (it was a bit later, 8:30-11:00 Mountain so after prime time, and populations were low due to the patch) on Thornblade (NA) and not a single keep flipped (the outposts flipped a few times). So not sure where your opinion on "defense is too hard" comes from. Not trying to be condescending, generally curious - was a different in prime time? Are you basing this off what you think will happen, or what you've actually seen?

Taking a keep was impossible unless you got it to 50% before anyone realizes. And even if you do accomplish that, it PvDoor.

Think of how many fights you've been in where you take a resource to siege from but can't siege the keep down to 50% so the defenders just keep pouring out with free rez's, no FC required. Think how tough that is, even with a FC. Now without them, it is impossible.

Malveria · November 2014

Both defense and offense are difficult. I'm sitting in the map and seeing next to nothing move.

Except until the population dropped.

Funny that.

deleted221205-002626 · November 2014

Im thinking making keeps able to spawn at untill the wall is completely down would help alot at a minimum with giving more time to respond. And you can spawn again once its at least partially up

Rylana · November 2014

Our squad of 12 took four keeps, an outpost, and 12 or so resources in one hour tonight on the DC buff server without using a single camp and farmed the hell out of the blues while they kept spamming up with camps

What is your excuse?

deleted221205-002626 · November 2014

Rylana wrote: »

Our squad of 12 took four keeps, an outpost, and 12 or so resources in one hour tonight on the DC buff server without using a single camp and farmed the hell out of the blues while they kept spamming up with camps

What is your excuse?

And if u had 20 you coulda taken 8 or more.. Were you ungodly skilled or maybe they had noone on? Or perhaps just couldnt respond in time?

Rylana · November 2014

michaelpatterson wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Our squad of 12 took four keeps, an outpost, and 12 or so resources in one hour tonight on the DC buff server without using a single camp and farmed the hell out of the blues while they kept spamming up with camps

What is your excuse?

And if u had 20 you coulda taken 8 or more.. Were you ungodly skilled or maybe they had noone on? Or perhaps just couldnt respond in time?

My group has never relied on forward camps, we are used to cross rezzing and watching each others backs. Camps were a luxury, not a requirement, for competitive PvP

When the rest of you figure out how to play, let me know, Vice is always looking for skilled players.

It kind of helps if you dont die every 10 seconds, too.

VileIntent · November 2014

driosketch wrote: »

Malveria wrote: »

This game is not designed around not having an immediate res point. This is bugged camps all over again guys, and we all knew how happy we were with that.

I feel like you are using happy ironically here. Many who advocated for the camp removal do however speak fondly of that time. I would also have preferred a less extreme solution, but what's done is done. Now to see how things work out. And I'm at 9% download... I'm probably not going to make it in tonight.

Malveria wrote: »

Remove the camps, sure, but give us the means to work around that. Don't just take something that your game was designed around. Make keeps harder to take. Make resources a steady respawn point at keeps. Create locations that can be captured and held by a small force for people to res at. Make the NPCs harder. Make walls stronger. Make keeps flag sooner, but cut off spawn later. Please. Something.

Because they are the same in the Non Vet Campaign, making NPCs harder isn't going to work for me. Resource respawn, if limited to a given radius, could work. Maybe something with the tower where destroying it would also end the respawn point on that resource. Or what about having to aggro the mages on the transit shrine in the inner keep to break the link, if you haven't captured all the resources first. That way the first resource flip or the flaming keep icon would alert defenders of their window to get to the keep while the transit link is still up, instead of the alert and the link being broken happening at the same time.

I absolutely agree, a simple fix to allow porting to the keep if ALL 3 resources are not taken and the keep is above 25% health if they are taken. I would also like to suggest a keep lord added. like the DAoC days. This could also give defenders more time to show up as a degree of pve must be over come prior to flip.

FluffiestOne · November 2014

VileIntent wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Malveria wrote: »

This game is not designed around not having an immediate res point. This is bugged camps all over again guys, and we all knew how happy we were with that.

I feel like you are using happy ironically here. Many who advocated for the camp removal do however speak fondly of that time. I would also have preferred a less extreme solution, but what's done is done. Now to see how things work out. And I'm at 9% download... I'm probably not going to make it in tonight.

Malveria wrote: »

Remove the camps, sure, but give us the means to work around that. Don't just take something that your game was designed around. Make keeps harder to take. Make resources a steady respawn point at keeps. Create locations that can be captured and held by a small force for people to res at. Make the NPCs harder. Make walls stronger. Make keeps flag sooner, but cut off spawn later. Please. Something.

Because they are the same in the Non Vet Campaign, making NPCs harder isn't going to work for me. Resource respawn, if limited to a given radius, could work. Maybe something with the tower where destroying it would also end the respawn point on that resource. Or what about having to aggro the mages on the transit shrine in the inner keep to break the link, if you haven't captured all the resources first. That way the first resource flip or the flaming keep icon would alert defenders of their window to get to the keep while the transit link is still up, instead of the alert and the link being broken happening at the same time.

I absolutely agree, a simple fix to allow porting to the keep if ALL 3 resources are not taken and the keep is above 25% health if they are taken. I would also like to suggest a keep lord added. like the DAoC days. This could also give defenders more time to show up as a degree of pve must be over come prior to flip.

And his name shalt be known as, " Fixate ".

rtc07 · November 2014

Rylana wrote: »

michaelpatterson wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Our squad of 12 took four keeps, an outpost, and 12 or so resources in one hour tonight on the DC buff server without using a single camp and farmed the hell out of the blues while they kept spamming up with camps

What is your excuse?

And if u had 20 you coulda taken 8 or more.. Were you ungodly skilled or maybe they had noone on? Or perhaps just couldnt respond in time?

My group has never relied on forward camps, we are used to cross rezzing and watching each others backs. Camps were a luxury, not a requirement, for competitive PvP

When the rest of you figure out how to play, let me know, Vice is always looking for skilled players.

It kind of helps if you dont die every 10 seconds, too.

Appreciate where you're coming from but for the purpose of this discussion Chilldrend doesn't really apply. I played Chill up until about a month and a half ago and it was nothing but DC (I'm DC). You're not going to encounter a situation on Chill where you take a resource, start sieging (or even just start sieging for the element of surprise) and all of a sudden 40 people role out of the keep, just because the server doesn't have the population. It's a different ball game.

Don't get me wrong I was in favour of the FC elimination until I saw it first hand... now not so certain.

Rylana · November 2014

rtc07 wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

michaelpatterson wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Our squad of 12 took four keeps, an outpost, and 12 or so resources in one hour tonight on the DC buff server without using a single camp and farmed the hell out of the blues while they kept spamming up with camps

What is your excuse?

And if u had 20 you coulda taken 8 or more.. Were you ungodly skilled or maybe they had noone on? Or perhaps just couldnt respond in time?

My group has never relied on forward camps, we are used to cross rezzing and watching each others backs. Camps were a luxury, not a requirement, for competitive PvP

When the rest of you figure out how to play, let me know, Vice is always looking for skilled players.

It kind of helps if you dont die every 10 seconds, too.

Appreciate where you're coming from but for the purpose of this discussion Chilldrend doesn't really apply. I played Chill up until about a month and a half ago and it was nothing but DC (I'm DC). You're not going to encounter a situation on Chill where you take a resource, start sieging (or even just start sieging for the element of surprise) and all of a sudden 40 people role out of the keep, just because the server doesn't have the population. It's a different ball game.

Don't get me wrong I was in favour of the FC elimination until I saw it first hand... now not so certain.

We actually play more than just Chillrend. Thats our little vacation spot, but most of us play primarily Thorn.

EIGHTS · November 2014

If the population is low, you don't have any chance to defend or win. The DC in Thornblade [NA] lost everything now. Because we don't have enough people to defend. ZoS doesn't solve zerg problem but make it worst.

Rylana · November 2014

EIGHTS wrote: »

If the population is low, you don't have any chance to defend or win. The DC in Thornblade [NA] lost everything now. Because we don't have enough people to defend. ZoS doesn't solve zerg problem but make it worst.

No, I think DC's problem on thornblade is they relied too much on camps to accomplish everything.

BrandonZerg confirmed for neutered.

EIGHTS · November 2014

You should take a look now. DC has no people to defend a keep and no camp can use, no chance to defend.

Otherwise, DC don't use zerg too. Does Zos want everyone to use zerg? I think this is a serious problem, if your alliance has no population.

Nidwin · November 2014

EIGHTS wrote: »

If the population is low, you don't have any chance to defend or win. The DC in Thornblade [NA] lost everything now. Because we don't have enough people to defend. ZoS doesn't solve zerg problem but make it worst.

DC's going to completely collapse coming weeks. Not much that can be done about it because of it's player base. It's just who we all are.
Some of you will just move on and the remaining will reroll AD.

Pact will still be around for a while. Lot of us Pact players are used to be the underdog, reason why WH Destro opted for Pact and Order went more AD.

Anyway

Sleep · November 2014

It makes it more difficult to attack keeps. And removing Forward Camps is a good news for zergballs as they always lag the server and don't die.

Rune_Relic · November 2014

Like above...I would say all 3 resources need to be taken (keep walls sustain 0% new damage otherwise) and you need to eliminate the 4 mages at the transit gate to stop respawn in a keep. This is the transport link control after all.

This gives low pop factions time to mobilise when they see resources dropping and they can maintain some numbers on the walls if they are outgunned for a long time.
1. other groups can grab resources fairly easy but the keep is much harder to take requiring "large numbers".
2. larger pop groups can send out bodies to take back the resources...smaller low pop groups can just remain sieged within the keep for some time.
3. Damn it sieges always took forever in RL and the resources vulnerable...why change that ?
4. Its possible to prevent losing keeps by just keeping 1 resource. This moves the battlefield outside the keep if numbers allow.

This game is about rezzing in the field now. You need to focus all damage on the lowest health players 1st and thin out the number of rezzers ASAP. All the heals goto the lowest health player...so you must take them down reducing numbers that damage and/or heal.

[edit: change keep damage from 100% to frozen at x%]

CapuchinSeven · November 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Like above...I would say all 3 resources need to be taken (keep walls sustain 0% new damage otherwise) and you need to eliminate the 4 mages at the transit gate to stop respawn in a keep. This is the transport link control after all.

This gives low pop factions time to mobilise when they see resources dropping and they can maintain some numbers on the walls if they are outgunned for a long time.
1. other groups can grab resources fairly easy but the keep is much harder to take requiring "large numbers".
2. larger pop groups can send out bodies to take back the resources...smaller low pop groups can just remain sieged within the keep for some time.
3. Damn it sieges always took forever in RL and the resources vulnerable...why change that ?
4. Its possible to prevent losing keeps by just keeping 1 resource. This moves the battlefield outside the keep if numbers allow.

This game is about rezzing in the field now. You need to focus all damage on the lowest health players 1st and thin out the number of rezzers ASAP. All the heals goto the lowest health player...so you must take them down reducing numbers that damage and/or heal.

[edit: change keep damage from 100% to frozen at x%]

Actually I like these ideas and to be fair, it probably wouldn't have been a bad idea to make these changes before they took away the camps.

Malveria · November 2014

Zenimax needed to support the removal of camps before they removed camps. People who have a stockpile of camps will have the advantage, and people are not willing to run to get somewhere, die as soon as they get there, and then have to do the run again. The distance between potential res places is now too large.

Take the camps fine. But do something to compensate for that removal first.

Now it's a ring-a-rosie if zerg/ninja keep, cap it, leave. Have it zerged/ninja'd behind you. They leave. Repeat.

No more epic, long fights. No more moving from fight to fight continuously. No more 'Ow my fingers hurt!' from amazing lengthy battles.

Now it's zerg it or lose it.

WRX · November 2014

Malveria wrote: »

Zenimax needed to support the removal of camps before they removed camps. People who have a stockpile of camps will have the advantage, and people are not willing to run to get somewhere, die as soon as they get there, and then have to do the run again. The distance between potential res places is now too large.

Take the camps fine. But do something to compensate for that removal first.

Now it's a ring-a-rosie if zerg/ninja keep, cap it, leave. Have it zerged/ninja'd behind you. They leave. Repeat.

No more epic, long fights. No more moving from fight to fight continuously. No more 'Ow my fingers hurt!' from amazing lengthy battles.

Now it's zerg it or lose it.

Tintinabula · November 2014

Everyone dies at a siege or defense (unless you're some guild/cult leader and you surround yourself with healers/templars..even then you have surrounded yourself with ppl to rezz you.)

I play with a friend and he cant always rezz me..I cant always rezz him...so..sometimes the zergball rolls over me..the impulse train sends me packing...and now i wait 9 mins to see if someone rezzes me..they don't usually and frankly I cant be bothered to run all the way back to "support" players who cant support their team mates by using a soulgem..I stand and wait longer for either the transit to open or a fight to start elsewhere.

Rylana · November 2014

AD just cant seem to figure it out. Every time we got into trouble tonight someone started using up what camps they had left. Crutching as per usual.

When are we going to learn to defend? Those camps arent going to last.

Tintinabula · November 2014

They allow people to get used to a mechanic and then jerk it from under us.
Not losing gear..a crutch.
No repair bill..a crutch.
Not having to go back and reclaim your body...a crutch.
Not losing XP and levels..a crutch.
You still have transitus..a crutch.
You still have rezz stones..a crutch.

Calling something a crutch cause you no longer have it to trick your mind into accepting a &*^&%$ up game situation or to try to make others feel bad because they scream ouch only brings to light what current crutches we STILL use.

Rylana · November 2014

Tintinabula wrote: »

They allow people to get used to a mechanic and then jerk it from under us.
Not losing gear..a crutch.
No repair bill..a crutch.
Not having to go back and reclaim your body...a crutch.
Not losing XP and levels..a crutch.
You still have transitus..a crutch.
You still have rezz stones..a crutch.

Calling something a crutch cause you no longer have it to trick your mind into accepting a &*^&%$ up game situation or to try to make others feel bad because they scream ouch only brings to light what current crutches we STILL use.

Except for there was this magical time where camps didnt work and we did get by just fine for months.

We got so used to camps as our strength we forgot all the skills we learned before summer.

Tintinabula · November 2014

yes I remember those times and you know what else I remember?..I remember losing keeps and outposts cause the other teams FCs worked and ours didn't.

I don't ever remember a time where there were no FCs period except for alpha .

And now we have the same thing happening except now the disparity is because of dumb luck or crazy people who foresaw this and bought literally thousands of FCs just in case bull crap like this occurred.

We are still losing keeps because the other team decided to put up one more FC than we did.

Zintair · November 2014

In DAOC the guards used to warn you in guild chat when enemies were nearby and one was killed. Was a really great mechanic.

Offered social element
Makes Guild claiming important
Circumvents the ridiculously fast time keeps can be flagged.

But that's none of my business tho.

AhPook_Is_Here · November 2014

I really am enjoying the changes, and while there seems to be a vocal group against the changes, almost everyone in my guild also likes them. I was getting pretty bored with the death train, now a bit more thought has to go into both offense and defense, and it isn't as easy for the whole server to just stack on one location. Yes, it still does happen, but there are many more interesting fights in various sizes, both inside and outside keep areas.

Zintair · November 2014

Rylana wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

They allow people to get used to a mechanic and then jerk it from under us.
Not losing gear..a crutch.
No repair bill..a crutch.
Not having to go back and reclaim your body...a crutch.
Not losing XP and levels..a crutch.
You still have transitus..a crutch.
You still have rezz stones..a crutch.

Calling something a crutch cause you no longer have it to trick your mind into accepting a &*^&%$ up game situation or to try to make others feel bad because they scream ouch only brings to light what current crutches we STILL use.

Except for there was this magical time where camps didnt work and we did get by just fine for months.

We got so used to camps as our strength we forgot all the skills we learned before summer.

I disagree. Everyone in general wasn't as in the "know" regarding abilities/armor/combos/tactics etc as they are now.

We could wipe 100 DC inc to bleakers with 20 people. Now we would get melted REAL fast.

You take what was and apply it now too much has changed. The average level of player skill is much higher than 4 months ago.

Lets not forget Nightblades were awful and Bows were trash. Big changer to that as well when people can just spread out and mash 1 key from range and do 1k DPS.