So, About That Dungeon Scaling

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

Is it me, or does it seem like the bosses and on occasion the adds in the newly scaled Regular and Veteran Dungeons seem just a little.....I don't know.........................

Freakishly overpowered?

I'm not a pro, I don't pretend to be, but I sure as hell am not some trashed up, scrubby ass noob running around here like a fool, because holy hell these bosses are way too damn hard. Or at least I feel they are, and my guildies and friends are not noobs either, these are some of the best people ever, and frankly this *** is insane.

Please tell me I'm missing something and I'm an idiot, and then enlighten me as to how to beat these things, because these mobs seem a little too hard to possibly believe that this is working as intended.

Don't get me wrong now, I love a challenge, I love beating my head against a wall for something when the goal is a form of progression, but this? This is just plain nuts and if anything screams "Time Sink!" until newer, slightly better stuff comes out.

If I'm wrong, do tell me please, but if I'm not, then what the hell @ZoS, why is this so hard? Scaling broke maybe?

Rydik · November 2014

I think this system will be rebalanced many times in future, something new always have problems that will be fixed later...

Jacques Berge · November 2014

They are way more challenging... And I like it... The fact that me and my 3 top tier friends can't just steam roll a vet dungeon is incredibly refreshing. If you're not using a 3rd party voice chat software you're gonna have some issues... Also, this makes pugs far less likely to clear a dungeon smoothly. The dungeon scaling is just another way ESO is encouraging social game play

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

Oh don't get me wrong here dude, like I said I love me a challenge too. I hate to steamroll things too, but I also like to clear them within a reasonable level of difficulty and, of course, gaining a reward that was worth my level of risk and effort.

At the moment there ain't *** available that can really make up for the obscene difficulty that players are currently facing. I can at least say that I'm not the only one in my four guilds that's noticed this drastic increase of difficulty.

Almost feels like a Dark Souls Lite XD (Not really)

EDIT* Also, of course I use things like Teamspeak and teamwork. I ran this with guildies who also happen to be good friends, and our teamwork is dumb strong, I mean *** we kicked DSA's ass........Almost. Sort of, long story.

Anyway on the PTS they went ahead and cleared out some of Vet City Of Ash, but are getting roflstomped in these new dungeons. It....well it just doesn't add up. Are we secretly really bad, or did they overbuff the instances?

Leeric · November 2014

Its exposing bad builds and play styles more so than previous dungeons.

Faulgor · November 2014

I PUGed Direfrost Keep and Vet Banished Cells yesterday for the Undaunted pledge. I was the group leader at VR6, everyone else was VR11+. I think we wiped once in BC because I screwed up (healer), but otherwise the difficulty was fine. The problem was the insane amount of HP on the bosses. They are not freakishly more threatining, but take an unreasonable amount of time to get down (keep in mind, our DDs were at least 5 ranks higher). I nearly had a panic attack against Rilis because it took forever to damage him significantly and I knew if I made just one mistake I'd have to do it all over again

.

Combined with the lousy rewards (purple staff from Rilis, generic purple great axe and a great soul gem for a golden key), this was just not worth it. I'll see which dungeon is today's pledge, but if that doesn't yield anything better as well, I don't think I will do dungeons again.

The trash mobs were fine, though. It's just the boss HP as far as I can tell.

Jacques Berge · November 2014

Having a v6 be the group lead is a bad litmus test for people running a v12 dungeon.

I will agree... The trash mobs are still trash

I also agree... It's the bosses that are harder. The last watcher in BC had the orbs shoot out at a machine gun rate Andy party surly would have died if I was able to keep VoB up perpetually.

Elf_Boy · November 2014

I did the recover the ring of stendar main quest last night on one of my sorcerers, Got 1-shot killed multiple times. Makes it kinda frustrating.

Be nice if there were a difficulty slider somewhere.

Syntse · November 2014

Elf_Boy wrote: »

Be nice if there were a difficulty slider somewhere.

There is but you just cannot control it. The more you get your behind wooped the easier it should get. However I have not heard anyone testing this mechanics.

Valymer · November 2014

It will get tweaked, the only people who think that it is fine the way it is either haven't tried them yet or are wearing full Trial gear.

The increased challenge is a great step in the right direction though. Just needs a little fine tuning (specifically the amount of hitpoints on bosses on veteran mode).

cote-bmsb16_ESO · November 2014

Yea, we had two groups running dungeons tonight and were having troubles trying to complete Undaunted pledges as v14s. Everyone is V14 and geared, and the boss difficulty is worse than DSA. I also think the bosses have too much health. Just die and give me loot, I have other things to do. Ugh, ESO is annoying me.

Alphashado · November 2014

The scaled up normal versions are indeed very challenging. That in itself isn't the issue. The issue is the risk vs reward. Not many people want to face this type of challenge for a lousy blue undaunted key. There needs to be a normal challenge with a lesser reward and a VR challenge with better rewards. The way it is right now, there is a VR challenge with OK rewards and a "normal" challenge that is just as hard if not harder with a crappy blue reward.

The entire principle is supposed to get more people interested in dungeons regardless of skill lvl. All this is going to do is scare away casual gamers even more.

Normal version = Casual friendly with a fair reward.
VR version = Requires more skill with a much better reward.

That's the way it should be.
Right now everything is pretty ridiculous. And none of the rewards are even close to appropriate for the lvl of challenge.

I tried the VR BC yesterday with 4 different pugs. A couple of those groups were geared VR14 players that were good. We never got past Imril.

Magdalina · November 2014

Out of curiosity, which one(s) did you try?
I ran new vet 12 DC and BC, and it was totally nuts. The scaling really wasn't thought out that well though, they're mostly okay with good group, but Netch boss in DC and Imril in BC are absolutely crazy. Even with a great team and TS. We wiped at least 30 times on Imril.

I am glad they got buffed but basically...before the buff, me and a tanky friend would occasionally go bored and 2 man some vet dungeons. We 2 manned BC, Spindle, Wayrest, almost all Elden and Fungal. It was fun and extremely challenging - a slightest mistake and we'd wipe because lack of 2 party members doesn't leave much room for mistake. THAT is exactly what new vet dungeons feel like - with all 4 people now.

Rair.Kitani · November 2014

We have been in vet bc yesterday, with an sub optimal vr14 group (templar DD, sorc tank, templar heal, nightblade DD) and we were ok. So we not rolled through like an afternoons walk but hey, we finally make it and it felt good.
Pls express your critisism in a way you don't nerf the fun out for other players. I really like the system but i understand that for peps with random groups and/or outdated equip it might be to hard. But tbh if you decrease difficuilty you also have to decrease loot, so pls dont cry if you recieve i.e. no purple or not your level if it changes in an future update

Jacques Berge · November 2014

As a NB... Lots of sap essence, lots of VoB is how we beat the imril and the netch boss... I had to Rez teammates in each fight... Don't even get me started on the engine fight... That was nuts, it took us 3-4 times to figure out we had to give it the slow and steady style. I like it.

Xjcon · November 2014

High kin lord riles seems more of a challenge for sure. He hits harder and faster then ever. Managed to get him down with one group but tried a few more times with pugs and was way to hard for pug groups. If they want to *** off the casual gamer this daily being to hard will do it. Don't get me wrong it's fun being hard.

Tavore1138 · November 2014

Yeah, not fun.

I got my undaunted pledges, ignored the vet dungeon one because I know that will require a properly organised group that will take some arranging but had a second for direfrost at 'normal' level and without considering the scaling implications I figured 'what the heck I'll have a crack at this solo, I've done some of these solo before'.

Walked in (without combat mods 'cos FTC is not updated yet) and saw 3 bears at VR12... figured, 3 bears at VR12, I've done multiple VR bears before... they ate me... turned on FTC... 12.5k HP each and hitting to match.

Walked out, dropped quest, cursed the lack of sanity in the ZOS devs room and went to do something vaguely rewarding.

I can't, nor do I wish to, group all day everyday but 100% group content is all they offer right now. Scaling has removed one of the pleasures left since the hard nerfed all the questing/delve content for solo players.

Can't they give players an effing break from being forced to group for everything if we've had the temerity to reach VR levels?

As a stamina build who likes to solo from time to time I'm really feeling the hatred from ZOS.

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

.........Holy hell, Imiril kicked our ass too. In fact, it seems in fights with adds we seem to get roflstomped a good bit.

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

Additionally, we rocked Direfrost. It wasn't easy, but it wasn't blisteringly difficult either. It was a fun challenge. That's kinda what it should be, because these new things are a bit nuts, and I'm getting the vibe that our choices for these are now:

1) Zerg the everliving *** out of them with as much AoE and magic as possible.

or

2) Outlast with legit Support DPS and Surviving skills, like pretty much old school D&D type ***, which wouldn't exactly be bad if properly executed.

So who knows, we'll see.

Alphashado · November 2014

The normal pledges should be about as challenging as the 4 man dungeons in Craglorn. Yes if you are geared and good they are very easy. But normal versions should be easy. Especially considering the risk/reward factor.

You should accept the normal pledge expecting an easy/moderate challenge. That is the entire concept for a "normal" version. They are supposed to be casual friendly with a lesser reward.

Want a ridiculous challenge that requires a great group with perfect execution? That's what the guy on the other side of the camp is supposed to be for.

That being said, I do think even the scaled up VR versions are a tad OP.

Valymer · November 2014

Rair.Kitani wrote: »

We have been in vet bc yesterday, with an sub optimal vr14 group (templar DD, sorc tank, templar heal, nightblade DD) and we were ok. So we not rolled through like an afternoons walk but hey, we finally make it and it felt good.
Pls express your critisism in a way you don't nerf the fun out for other players. I really like the system but i understand that for peps with random groups and/or outdated equip it might be to hard. But tbh if you decrease difficuilty you also have to decrease loot, so pls dont cry if you recieve i.e. no purple or not your level if it changes in an future update

If they decreased the loot any more, it would be comparable to the crap you can loot out of barrels. Hell, I can craft better items than most of what drops, no one is doing it for the loot really (well, maybe for those new headpieces because of the novelty). People are doing it because it is fun, and used to be a good way to level up other than questing (this has been decreased as well it seems).

The problem is that PUGs are still the main way for some people to run these dungeons. I am lucky in that I have a solid group of friends that I usually run this stuff with, plus I am in a dungeon-oriented guild, but I still run PUGs sometimes when no one I know is online.

If a typical group of VR14 players (an actual tank, an actual healer, and two dps) wearing at-level gear have to struggle to get a chance at what could at best be described as mediocre drops, then something is wrong with the balancing.

And what is going to happen is that all casuals will give up on dungeons, and the only people left running them will be hardcore players or people with pre-made guild groups. Do you think that is Zenimax's goal?

Consider Dragonstar Arena. Even on normal mode those fights are not really easy, they never have been. Everyone has to know their role and pay attention, and it takes good coordination. But it is really fun. Why? It's not because the bosses have stupid amounts of hitpoints, or hit so incredibly hard. It is because there are some awesome additional mechanics that you have to learn to deal with and then avoid or execute properly. That is what makes a fun fight. That is what people are looking for.

People are generally not looking for extremely long fights with fairly obvious or already known mechanics where the only real "challenge" is having a certain group makeup or else being able to click furiously for 10 minutes with absolutely zero margin for error. That's not fun, it's like someone trying to drive across the United States non-stop without sleeping. Would you also consider that to be a challenge?

tl;dr: DSA-esque fight mechanics are fun. Bosses with boring mechanics but totally unnecessary amounts of hitpoints and damage are not, although it seems that most people are happy with the direction ZOS is taking. Now we are just calling for a slight adjustment to allow scaling to bring dungeons back in line with the reality of the playerbase.

PBpsy · November 2014

Yeah . Imiril was a pita with group of VR 14 guildies. We got her repeatedly bellow 25% but we just couldn't finish it before disbanding.Really fun fight though, It is exactly as when I first done it before the nerf , one of the biggest AOE bps checks in the game.You need two very survivable AOE dps like destro DKs or siphon NBs but we all know that contrary to popular belief those are not that easy to find. They will nerf it soon since most build and party configs will not manage to do it and pugs will just crash and burn

Rair.Kitani · November 2014

oO Eso drowning in a sea of tears
I think it was fun, i think its not too hard and im far away from pro
loot is ok in my opinion, what did you expect
there sets with new combinations (sta + spell crit / mag + wep.krit) which support attack weaving and the "old" sets scaled up like wormcult which offer a benefits a buff to a whole raid... i think thats fine
stop the nerf-train!

xaraan · November 2014

The system needs some work. I like the new challenges for the most part, but here and there it needs some polishing still. A blanket buff wasn't the best way to make things harder, in some cases when combined with other changes to timing mechanics and other changes in general to dungeons, it makes some things a bit crazy.

Draxys · November 2014

Disclaimer: I also agree that more challenging content is good, but it may be a bit over the top here... I tried to do the undaunted vet BC pledge today. We had a really good healer, although our dps was meh, and I tanked. The dual wielding boss that teleports around spawning adds was hitting me for 40% health EVERY HIT. I am almost hard capped in health, and have a serious amount of dmg mitigation through armor, shield, and the v13 footman set. That's ridiculous. The healer could not keep up with the damage, even when I was using pots and green dragon blood.

Rair.Kitani · November 2014

Why the heck is the first reaction after trying a dungeon not "I/we need to improve" but "Dungeon needs nerf"? are you that good that you have no room for improvement or don't you want to? (Meaning no one peronally)

Khivas_Carrick · November 2014

There's a point where you just sort of know things, a tally of one's experience throughout adventuring and gaming. DSA was freakishly hard, but it was also doable and challenging. It was rewarding near the end no less and the more you did it the easier it got. These new things do not mimic this, and instead of feeling like you get closer each wipe, each try bringing you a better taste of the victor's spoils, they instead get slapped in the face, knowing full and well what kills them each time and are crippled as they realize there's nothing they can do each time.

At the moment this game has a few people that I know frightened that it might become nothing more than a zerg fest for some fights (read: MOST) and if that happens they won't be around any longer, and that'll start off a vicious chain of exodus.

That said, I'm remaining optimistic here, as are my friends. We know, or at least after this thread I might have an idea, the difference between Hard and Challenging and Broken And Difficult.

zaria · November 2014

Was comfortable with dungeons now past VR10, but was never able to do more than banished cells before VR5, all was guild runs with TS.
I say that veteran dungeons is a bit too hard as in most would not be able to do them at intended level. Doing them at VR14 with an VR14 team should be possible as group would have good gear and lots of experience.

However not by an low level group. Luckily this would not be much of an problem as you will always have various levels including 14 and can set difficulty with leader level.

Tavore1138 · November 2014

Look, I like to have access to challenging content, I have completed Dragonstar and run a couple of vet dungeons and I am far from being an MMO pro.

But sometimes I just want to run content that is hard enough to keep me interested but easy enough to be fun. And sometimes I want to run rewarding solo content rather than grouping. Sometimes I don't want to have to use teamspeak or mumble to coordinate because I want to talk to my wife or watch
TV while I play.

ZOS are not feeding me content, everything seems aimed at guilds, groups and pros... Because those people are the only people they listen too... My small 'casual' guild is losing players as they hit the wall of top level VR and return to offline games where they can 'win' without being a pro or having to organise their work & family lives around trying to find viable groups.

Rair.Kitani · November 2014

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

But sometimes I just want to run content that is hard enough to keep me interested but easy enough to be fun. And sometimes I want to run rewarding solo content rather than grouping. Sometimes I don't want to have to use teamspeak or mumble to coordinate because I want to talk to my wife or watch
TV while I play.

Absolutely valid argument, solo content didn't get much since 1.3 My solo content is pvp atm^^
for grouping stuff without need to orginize too much i run AA trails... and as i read the comments here the non-vet-undaunted thing worked quite well for all here

Audigy · November 2014

ZOS are not feeding me content, everything seems aimed at guilds, groups and pros... Because those people are the only people they listen too... My small 'casual' guild is losing players as they hit the wall of top level VR and return to offline games where they can 'win' without being a pro or having to organise their work & family lives around trying to find viable groups.

I don't understand that sentence to be honest.

Everything you do in a guild requires time, it has absolutely nothing to do with how hard the content is.

If you want to pvp with your guild then you must set up a schedule. If you want to raid or just quest, do RP you must find a common schedule.

Time does not get more if content is harder, its still the same time so that blaming the difficulty is the wrong way. Blame the dependency of guilds at ESO but leave the difficulty where it is please.