NB Ranged vs DK Reflective Scales

rwross · November 2014

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ you've been great in giving feedback to the NB community so would really appreciate your input on this as well.

Please...DKs...don't let this become a flame...I have a legit question and perhaps its just because I'm missing something...if so...I'm happy to be enlightened.

As a NB, I have been frustrated by my ability to engage DKs in ranged combat. It seems they can flap those wings every 4 seconds with such frequency that at least 50% of a ranged attack reflects...making it very counter productive to cast ranged attacks on any DK or even folks near DKs because the ranged attack targeting is far from precise.

I was really surprised that our NB Siphon Ability (funnel health) reflects. I would never have thought of that as a projectile. More importantly, I'd argue that every class should have at least ONE ranged option that does NOT reflect.

I had been using Silver Bolts and it's morphs, but that was fixed this patch.

So, unless I'm missing something, I have no class-specific NB abilities that can be reliably used at range agains DKs. I believe every other class does, but could be mistaken.

Huntler · November 2014

You have stumbled across the reason you have 2 weapon bars and are encouraged to diversify your build beyond 1 purpose. Adapt and succeed or live with the fact that there is a class out there that can counter your 1 build. No 1 build should be able to beat or gank everyone/every build.

rwross · November 2014

I have done so, but was specifically mentioning the Class abilities. So would like to keep the bulk of this thread on that topic.

However, I have also maxed out build options from Fighters (as mentioned), Mage, Bow, Resto, and Desto. Which of those options would you recommend as not being reflectable at range?

Agrippa_Invisus · November 2014

rwross wrote: »

I have done so, but was specifically mentioning the Class abilities. So would like to keep the bulk of this thread on that topic.

However, I have also maxed out build options from Fighters (as mentioned), Mage, Bow, Resto, and Desto. Which of those options would you recommend as not being reflectable at range?

Resto staff heavy attacks are not reflectable.

Soul Assault/Strike is not reflectable.

Ground AEs (caltrops, etc) are not reflectable.

AE damage in general is not reflectable. (caveat: directly being targeted by Meteor is reflectable, being caught in the blast is not)

Armitas · November 2014

rwross wrote: »

I have done so, but was specifically mentioning the Class abilities.

I don't understand, if you have done so whats the problem? I don't know that there is any expectation that 1 line should be a counter to all situations. It's more the expectation that all lines should be utilized to counter all types of situations.

Suntzu1414 · November 2014

Also, I believe... Cripple and Soul Tether (are not reflectable).

You could build a bar-- ambush, surprised attack then Soul Assault/Soul Tether.
and finish (if needed) with Impale .

If you are looking from distance.

Cripple. Shades. Resto Staff, Impale.

...my 2c
ST

Erock25 · November 2014

Just live with the fact that Reflective Scale spamming DK is mostly immune to many popular builds. If there is a group on him, I'll spam resto heavy attacks. If not, I just move on.

rwross · November 2014

Thanks for that...I'm not sure those would really be effective given the length of time it takes for a Resto heavy attack and, while I do equip resto for specific reasons, it doesn't really make sense to me for a NB to have it as a regularly used option. Since NBs should really be a DPS class and, IMO, should have some kind of non relfectable range options.

Soul Assault is an Ulti so not particularly practical to count on regularly although I do use it.

AEs are not particularly optimized for range and, like all AEs, are balanced to be used on multiple targets...not really practical agains one.

Out of curiosity, do Sorcs and Templars have any abilities that do not reflect? I honestly don't know.

Erock25 · November 2014

rwross wrote: »

Out of curiosity, do Sorcs and Templars have any abilities that do not reflect? I honestly don't know.

Sorc has Velocious Curse which is dmg on a 3.5 second delay and our execute which tickles outside of execute range.

Xeniph · November 2014

To be fair and specific. I totally agree with him on Funnel. Seeing as it's a drain, the ability originates from the target and the only "projectile component" is the health return.

Heck, they just fixed mage fury and it also originates from the target.

But that's just my view.

Aeratus · November 2014

NB has crippling grasp and impale, both ranged attacks, against reflective scales.

Hypertionb14_ESO · November 2014

i have learned that with my sorc i can just spam heavy attack with Lightning Staff with Encase on each completion to keep them rooted.. they dont have much ranged ability.. if there are other players this usually screws the DK over.

if they get low enough Mages Fury.

anyways on my NB i just stay stealthed and spam ranged heavy attacks or snipes. if the attacked is reflected and you dont break stealth yourself, you will stay stealthed and the reflected attacks will miss when they get back to you.

Grim13 · November 2014

Huntler wrote: »

You have stumbled across the reason you have 2 weapon bars and are encouraged to diversify your build beyond 1 purpose. Adapt and succeed or live with the fact that there is a class out there that can counter your 1 build. No 1 build should be able to beat or gank everyone/every build.

..unless you're a DK. Then reflecting all projectiles is completely reasonable.

Domander · November 2014

rwross wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ you've been great in giving feedback to the NB community so would really appreciate your input on this as well.

Please...DKs...don't let this become a flame...I have a legit question and perhaps its just because I'm missing something...if so...I'm happy to be enlightened.

As a NB, I have been frustrated by my ability to engage DKs in ranged combat. It seems they can flap those wings every 4 seconds with such frequency that at least 50% of a ranged attack reflects...making it very counter productive to cast ranged attacks on any DK or even folks near DKs because the ranged attack targeting is far from precise.

I was really surprised that our NB Siphon Ability (funnel health) reflects. I would never have thought of that as a projectile. More importantly, I'd argue that every class should have at least ONE ranged option that does NOT reflect.

I had been using Silver Bolts and it's morphs, but that was fixed this patch.

So, unless I'm missing something, I have no class-specific NB abilities that can be reliably used at range agains DKs. I believe every other class does, but could be mistaken.

Templar can spear shards (blazing spear), sorcerer can curse/lightning splash/mages fury, DK's do not have any class ranged abilities, so, I disagree that each class should have a non projectile ranged damage ability.

It's supposed to be hard to range a DK. Just like it's hard to melee a sorc, and it's hard to kill a templar that's healing.

rwross · November 2014

So it does seem that every non DK class can range a DK somehow without reflecting except an NB. Given that DKs have no ranged abilities, i suppose that goes without saying.

Not that it much matters what I think, but I do believe that the Siphon/Funnel Health ability should not reflect. I certainly don't think it would be unbalancing and having a siphon ability reflect simply makes no sense to me as it is not a projectile of any kind.

olsborg · November 2014

Reflective scales are pretty OP and stupid anyway, to give 100% reflection for 4 seconds.

stoop420 · November 2014

I use my Twin Sisters set. I'll light attack and block the reflect. The DK gets the DoT. I've killed DKs this way. They don't know wtf is going on when their iWin button is broke. I don't know if ZoS nerfed the set bonus yet but it was still effective last night.

Blackthorn51 · November 2014

In the case of reflected attacks missing you if you did not break your stealth - Im afraid that is no longer an option. Currently, all reflected attacks still hit you regardless of if you are hidden, detected, cloaked or otherwise

sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO · November 2014

rwross wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ you've been great in giving feedback to the NB community so would really appreciate your input on this as well.

Please...DKs...don't let this become a flame...I have a legit question and perhaps its just because I'm missing something...if so...I'm happy to be enlightened.

As a NB, I have been frustrated by my ability to engage DKs in ranged combat. It seems they can flap those wings every 4 seconds with such frequency that at least 50% of a ranged attack reflects...making it very counter productive to cast ranged attacks on any DK or even folks near DKs because the ranged attack targeting is far from precise.

I was really surprised that our NB Siphon Ability (funnel health) reflects. I would never have thought of that as a projectile. More importantly, I'd argue that every class should have at least ONE ranged option that does NOT reflect.

I had been using Silver Bolts and it's morphs, but that was fixed this patch.

So, unless I'm missing something, I have no class-specific NB abilities that can be reliably used at range agains DKs. I believe every other class does, but could be mistaken.

LOL CUZ NBs SPAMMING CLOAK IS FINE TOO? LOL L2 ADAPT. Bow using scrub.

eNumbra · November 2014

Aeratus wrote: »

NB has crippling grasp and impale, both ranged attacks, against reflective scales.

unless something's changed with this last patch, nope.

Maulkin · November 2014

eNumbra wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

NB has crippling grasp and impale, both ranged attacks, against reflective scales.

unless something's changed with this last patch, nope.

Impale is not reflected.

Basically if an unmorphed skill is considered melee, all its morphs are melee too. And the opposite if the unmorphed skill is considered ranged.

For example, Destructive Touch unmorphed is melee range but the game sees it as ranged. So it can be reflected along with its morphs.

CapuchinSeven · November 2014

Restro staff heavy, Crippling Grasp and Agony. I lol at DK's and the ones I can't kill can't kill me and who cares, I go do something important like actually take the keep rather than mess round with them at a pass gate while they hold block and stand in their ultimate.

TomLukman · November 2014

Well, I play both DK and NB warlock caster with primary funnel health attack. When fighting a reflective DK (or tanky DK in general) your main skill is patience. Reflective scale is expensive and he will run out of mana eventually. I use resto staff attacks when facing reflective scale DK. If he gets close, stealth then attack from range again. Archer summon lowers their attacks. Immovable prevents them from knocking you down. Veil of blades will hurt them if they get to close. Just take it easy and wear them out. A siphoning nightblade can win any fight as long as he's calm and patient enough to wait for the enemy to get worn out.

The worst mistake you can make is trying to run away. I had many situations on my DK where I was about to loose after a long fight and then the ganker started to run - and I survived.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · November 2014

Yeah I was gonna say I ran into this as well but you just roll up your sleeves, Teleport Strike in and take them down the old fashion way, hand to hand baby, my dual wield can Flurry them out..

rwross · November 2014

Lots of good thoughts here and much appreciated (with the notable exception of the Dewdspeak guy a few posts ago)

Seems I'll just need to adapt my play style a bit...I really enjoy both close and extreme range since I have Reach 2 + Dominion Gear for PVP that allows the latter especially near keeps where I can engage from 63 meters out.

Impale is only 18m which, for me, is used to take down fleeing folks, but not really as a long distance engagement tactic.

Unless I'm missing something from the posts I've read, there really isn't some strategy that I've been missing for that 28m+ attack against DKs.

Agony, which I haven't used since very early PVE and discarded, does reach that far, but it seems in a PVP environment someone is going to smack your target very early thus breaking the root...and...with green dragon blood it does seem that all the DoTs except funnel simply tickle a bit.

Again...more thoughts are welcome...ultimately I can wish that either funnel is changed to not reflect or perhaps if you Mark someone it prevents reflect.

Beyond that...the constant DK flapping is just annoying :-)

Then again, I don't spam cloak but apparently lots of NBs do...not exactly sure why you'd want to spam cloak given the magic requirement...but I suppose if you need to...ya need to :-)

eNumbra · November 2014

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

eNumbra wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

NB has crippling grasp and impale, both ranged attacks, against reflective scales.

unless something's changed with this last patch, nope.

Impale is not reflected.

Basically if an unmorphed skill is considered melee, all its morphs are melee too. And the opposite if the unmorphed skill is considered ranged.

Then I would love to know why Impale was being reflected a couple of weeks ago while I was fighting a DK

Rylana · November 2014

Bombard/Acid Spray makes short work of those pesky DK flapflaps.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · November 2014

Sap essence, ambush and fear. All works against DK. Add in steel tornado that allow you to hit them at 12.5 meters without reflect working.

VileIntent · November 2014

Huntler wrote: »

You have stumbled across the reason you have 2 weapon bars and are encouraged to diversify your build beyond 1 purpose. Adapt and succeed or live with the fact that there is a class out there that can counter your 1 build. No 1 build should be able to beat or gank everyone/every build.

Yet, that one skill counters every ranged build in the game...

Sanct16 · November 2014

Yeah there should really be a way to attack DK at super high range because you know... It would be boring if a melee class without any ranged skills and no gap closer could do something against you attacking from 28m.

Maulkin · November 2014

VileIntent wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

You have stumbled across the reason you have 2 weapon bars and are encouraged to diversify your build beyond 1 purpose. Adapt and succeed or live with the fact that there is a class out there that can counter your 1 build. No 1 build should be able to beat or gank everyone/every build.

Yet, that one skill counters every ranged build in the game...

No, it counters certain single target ranged skills. Sparks on the other hand counters all melee single target skills, not some.