Wrothgar & 50+ Zones: Please open up to "all alliances" simultaneously...
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Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just gonna drop in this which I wrote in a similar thread, adding in the Guild sanctuaries:Putting open-world PvP aside, and thinking only in PvE terms, these are the things I believe should be cross-faction (with lore-reasons):- Group Dungeons: Group Dungeon quests are orchestrated by the Undaunted, and the Undaunted have no Alliance affiliation. Players from all alliances should be able to group together to complete them. (You could set a toggle in the Group Finder for if you do/do not want cross-faction for the upcoming run.)
- Coldharbour: In Coldharbour, we have convinced the three Alliance Leaders to sanction the Guild invasion, meaning NPCs of all alliances will be there. Cross-faction PvE in Coldharbour therefore makes logical sense.
- Neutral Zones: Veteran Content zones that have no inherent Alliance affiliation, like Craglorn and presumably other upcoming Adventure Zones and "Solo PvE" Zones. Using Craglorn as an example: since the Star-Gazer Heralds can be found in all three Alliance capitals seeking aid, it would make sense that players from all alliances respond to that, meaning players from all alliances should be able to play together.
- Trials: Combine the reasoning behind Group Dungeons and Neutral Zones. Also would make it easier for cross-faction Raid Guilds to exist.
- Eyevea and The Earth Forge: As with the Undaunted, the Mages Guild and Fighters Guild have no Alliance affiliation, so there's no need for separate versions of these Guild sanctuaries.
That list is basically made up of all the "Neutral" content, which has no good reason for separation. Assuming some reworking of Cadwell's Gold and Silver, you could also extend that to the Veteran versions of the main Alliance zones. Assume the Normal versions of the zones remain faction-locked for 1-43 [44-50 is Coldharbour, and as mentioned above this is a Neutral zone which should be cross-faction anyway].
When Veteran is reached, the Normal/Veteran toggle in the Group Finder is unlocked - this could be used to toggle between Normal and Veteran versions of your home alliance zones. In the Normal versions, all content is as normal 1-43 (you've outlevelled the enemies, you've completed all the quests, and you only see your own alliance members). In the Veteran versions, all content is V1+ and players from other alliances are also there. They could be doing a reworked Cadwell's Almanac of the standard Veteran-version Alliance quests, or you could all work on some Dailies that are only available in these Veteran versions of the zones.
These ideas take nothing away from what is already there, they just increase the options available to better allow players to "play how they want to play".UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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KenjiJU✭✭✭I'm a little confused as I thought Wrothgar was considered solo content. Though I guess that's what standard zones are minus WBs and larger delves. A couple long solo dungeons would be cool.
As for faction sharing zones, it would bolster the community a bit and reduce how dead it feels during late-night. It could even make Craglorn playable with the amount of players looking for quest groups.Edited by KenjiJU on October 17, 2014 10:16AM0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah I think it's bad wording. From what I understand, Wrothgar is going to be set up like the standard zones; ie, content that you are able to do solo, but you could also do it in twos/threes. Calling it a "Veteran Standard Zone" would make more sense than calling it a Solo PvE Zone. (Assuming it's Veteran; is that even confirmed yet?)I'm a little confused as I thought Wrothgar was considered solo content. Though I guess that's what standard zones are minus WBs and larger delves. A couple long solo dungeons would be cool.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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Enkil✭✭✭✭✭
✭Whether Wrothgar is solo (like most) or group (like Craglorn)... I think it needs to be faction neutral... meaning no faction has control and it is accessed by all factions simultaneously. There need not be a Dominion-Wrothgar, Ebonheart-Wrothgar, and Covenant-Wrothgar. That would be counter-intuitive, counter-productive, would isolate players and really serves no purpose.
Elder Scrolls is known for being a living, vibrant and plausible world. When we have these ridiculous artificial alliance based versions of different areas, it totally detracts from the immersion in the gameworld. (e.g., Aldmeri players play in a Deshaan area that is moslty populated by Khajiit/Altmer/Bosmer players??? WTF THAT'S IMPLAUSIBLE!) It also creates a lot of partitioning of the playerbase which may not be as evident to primetime players but is a huge problem for players at off-peak hours like myself (Hawaii time zone).
When making an MMO, aiming towards realism and creating an alternate reality should be one of, if not the, ultimate goal. Therefore, these absurdly unrealistic faction-specific versions of each zone need to be diminished/abandoned in favor of a realistic mixed-population in these zones.
It would be nice if that could be across the board, but we understand constraints in an MMO and reworking all that would take a lot of time and effort at this point.
Nevertheless, Coldharbor, Any and All 50+ zones, and Guild specific areas such as Earth forge and Eyevea need to be Faction Neutral and only have one verison. It is completly implausible that Molag Bal would have 3 versions of his Daedric realm Coldharbor for each of the three alliances (that exist for a blip on the overall timescale). Therefore, any development that relies on such a premise needs to be abandoned and plausibility be elevated in the overall development scheme!!Edited by Enkil on October 17, 2014 10:59AM4 -
schroed360✭✭✭Just gonna drop in this which I wrote in a similar thread, adding in the Guild sanctuaries:Putting open-world PvP aside, and thinking only in PvE terms, these are the things I believe should be cross-faction (with lore-reasons):- Group Dungeons: Group Dungeon quests are orchestrated by the Undaunted, and the Undaunted have no Alliance affiliation. Players from all alliances should be able to group together to complete them. (You could set a toggle in the Group Finder for if you do/do not want cross-faction for the upcoming run.)
- Coldharbour: In Coldharbour, we have convinced the three Alliance Leaders to sanction the Guild invasion, meaning NPCs of all alliances will be there. Cross-faction PvE in Coldharbour therefore makes logical sense.
- Neutral Zones: Veteran Content zones that have no inherent Alliance affiliation, like Craglorn and presumably other upcoming Adventure Zones and "Solo PvE" Zones. Using Craglorn as an example: since the Star-Gazer Heralds can be found in all three Alliance capitals seeking aid, it would make sense that players from all alliances respond to that, meaning players from all alliances should be able to play together.
- Trials: Combine the reasoning behind Group Dungeons and Neutral Zones. Also would make it easier for cross-faction Raid Guilds to exist.
- Eyevea and The Earth Forge: As with the Undaunted, the Mages Guild and Fighters Guild have no Alliance affiliation, so there's no need for separate versions of these Guild sanctuaries.
That list is basically made up of all the "Neutral" content, which has no good reason for separation. Assuming some reworking of Cadwell's Gold and Silver, you could also extend that to the Veteran versions of the main Alliance zones. Assume the Normal versions of the zones remain faction-locked for 1-43 [44-50 is Coldharbour, and as mentioned above this is a Neutral zone which should be cross-faction anyway].
When Veteran is reached, the Normal/Veteran toggle in the Group Finder is unlocked - this could be used to toggle between Normal and Veteran versions of your home alliance zones. In the Normal versions, all content is as normal 1-43 (you've outlevelled the enemies, you've completed all the quests, and you only see your own alliance members). In the Veteran versions, all content is V1+ and players from other alliances are also there. They could be doing a reworked Cadwell's Almanac of the standard Veteran-version Alliance quests, or you could all work on some Dailies that are only available in these Veteran versions of the zones.
These ideas take nothing away from what is already there, they just increase the options available to better allow players to "play how they want to play".
Just this ! Better option for group and totally make sense lore wise.1 -
ZigoSid✭✭✭✭Aldmeri players in another version of Deshaan created by a Daedra (like a dream or something else) is far less implausible than Aldmeri players working with Pact players and helping their ennemies protecting their countries in time of war -_-
( and it'll be too hard to make Vet and Normal quests in the same place)
And Wrothgar is supposed to be home of the Orcs, one of the Daggerfall Covenant races. If they make it's zone story neutral it'll be the [snip] thing I've ever see. (not to mention that we actually see more Orcs fortress in the other 2 factions than in their main faction -_-) They should add 3 zones at the same time, one for each faction with faction story related and when you finish your story you can do the other two ... just like in the vanilla game (but without those annoying VR this time of course)
But for some other zones like Craglorn, I agree, this should be real neutral zones with everyone fighting for the common good.
If some of my sentences sounds strange and uncorrect it's because I'm french, forgive me please :'(
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on October 28, 2014 5:34PM1 -
Syntse✭✭✭✭✭This once completed Coldharbor and gone veteran it should be cross-faction has been now mentioned in couple of last posts. However how this would work in practice without somehow totally redesigning the areas? Meaning how would it determine which faction is v1-5 and which is v6-10.
Currently if you are AD your v1-5 is EP and v6-10 is DC, for EP I think it's DC and then AD and for DC it's AD then EP or something like that. So there is scaling issue with these areas as AD char in EP would be v1-5 and DC char it would be v6-10.
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TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Storywise (and Seht knows I don't really care about that stuff in an MMO), you can't make the VR1-10 zones open to all alliances since they are part of Caldwel's SIlver & Gold (you can't even access them if you haven't finished the main quest).
I do agree though that currently, anything above VR10 should be mixed alliances and I do think that people from different alliances should be able to engage into PVP outside of cities and world setlements where important NPC's are located.²0 -
SantieClaws✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I suspect the only reason there have not been any multi alliance zones so far is that there is a game mechanic that keeps alliances seperate and you cannot have them together without sort of loading into a campaign system like in Cyrodiil. I'm sure it is all tied up to PvP and that way that operates.
They do need to look carefully at this for the long term health of the game.
I accept that from a story point of view it makes sense to have the alliances early on but there really isn't a lore or story reason to keep people apart later.
Also it just makes the game less enjoyable to be split up all the time.
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Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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Aldmeri players working with Pact players who are still levelling in Deshaan is not part of the suggestion. Once Veteran is reached, and you are thrust into alternate timelines, Pact players, Aldmeri players and Covenant players would be able to work together. Vet and Normal quests wouldn't be in the same place because of this separation.Aldmeri players in another version of Deshaan created by a Daedra (like a dream or something else) is far less implausible than Aldmeri players working with Pact players and helping their ennemies protecting their countries in time of war -_-
( and it'll be too hard to make Vet and Normal quests in the same place)
It was King Kurog that joined the Covenant and he made Orsinium (the city) officially part of Covenant territory. The entire region of Wrothgar could still be neutral, considering all the opposition to the Covenant that exists there. It has been suggested that the story of Wrothgar will be based around the Orcs' membership of the Covenant, so there may also be the option of separating them.And Wrothgar is supposed to be home of the Orcs, one of the Daggerfall Covenant races. If they make it's zone story neutral it'll be the retardest thing I've ever see. (not to mention that we actually see more Orcs fortress in the other 2 factions than in their main faction -_-) They should add 3 zones at the same time, one for each faction with faction story related and when you finish your story you can do the other two ... just like in the vanilla game (but without those annoying VR this time of course)Meaning how would it determine which faction is v1-5 and which is v6-10.
Currently if you are AD your v1-5 is EP and v6-10 is DC, for EP I think it's DC and then AD and for DC it's AD then EP or something like that. So there is scaling issue with these areas as AD char in EP would be v1-5 and DC char it would be v6-10.
Sure, only a reworking of how Cadwell's Silver and Gold function would make that work, but with the removal of Veteran Ranks in the future, something must already be planned around this. This is a suggestion that goes along with that.Storywise (and Seht knows I don't really care about that stuff in an MMO), you can't make the VR1-10 zones open to all alliances since they are part of Caldwel's SIlver & Gold (you can't even access them if you haven't finished the main quest).Edited by Enodoc on October 17, 2014 1:34PMUESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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TRIP233✭✭✭Listening to @ZOS_NickKonkle off the record (link), I was so very disappointed to hear him clear up the misconception that while Wrothgar will be accessible to all 3 alliances, there will be three different versions, one for each alliance.
He states the only PvP that will be possible there is against your own faction via the justice system. That's kinda counter-intuitive. This was fine for lower level areas, but can we please get an "all alliance" version of these additional zones you guys are adding to the game??? It's quite immersion breaking for these zones to exist in a vacuum and only be accessible to your faction.
EDIT: After further discussion, I would like to amend my my suggestion.....
Rather than 3 faction-specific versions of each of the 50+ zones, why not 2 versions that are open to all alliances simultaneously, one is PVP-enabled, and the other that is No-PVP?
Also, the Earth Forge, Eyevea and Coldharbor should obviously be faction neutral as they are in the story line.
WIN-WIN!!!
As for your amended suggestion: No! No, no, no. You're on the right idea, but you've got it wrong. Only one version of it. With the justice system, you can only participate in that if you're wearing a tabard. So we should use that same idea if we want to fight the other factions while PvE'ing there. That way the zones won't be empty and you don't have to be killed by another faction if you only wanted to PvE. We can take this a step further and add my idea to Coldharbour and Craglorn.Edited by TRIP233 on October 17, 2014 1:05PM0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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A valid point on open world PvP, but what is your opinion on cross-faction PvE in the neutral locations? That's the direction this thread appears to be taking right now.Unknown_poster wrote: »Just realize you're never going to be able to run around ganking pve toons and your stress levels and whining will drop away. Only reason you have cyrodiil is because they hired the guy from DAOC and he convinced them that all the little people who like to pull the wings off flies would flock to their game. It didn't happen and they weren't able to pull off their grand vision with the tech they have, so you're in for more frustrated keyboard venting in the forums.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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Syntse✭✭✭✭✭Meaning how would it determine which faction is v1-5 and which is v6-10.
Currently if you are AD your v1-5 is EP and v6-10 is DC, for EP I think it's DC and then AD and for DC it's AD then EP or something like that. So there is scaling issue with these areas as AD char in EP would be v1-5 and DC char it would be v6-10.
Sure, only a reworking of how Cadwell's Silver and Gold function would make that work, but with the removal of Veteran Ranks in the future, something must already be planned around this. This is a suggestion that goes along with that.Storywise (and Seht knows I don't really care about that stuff in an MMO), you can't make the VR1-10 zones open to all alliances since they are part of Caldwel's SIlver & Gold (you can't even access them if you haven't finished the main quest).
You are throwing idea around but not putting too much thought into it. Of course removal of veteran ranks will have it's impact yet still we will need progressively harder content to get those champion points and get tougher.
Most likely the quests in the enemy faction areas are not going away so they need to represent some difficulty currently in veteran levels. So per faction there would basically be just one veteran area unexplored by both persons from different factions. Currently that area is totally different in terms of difficulty for those.
Personally I cannot think any way of making that work in difficulty and quest wise to 2 different faction players to go together.
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Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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I meant cross-faction PvE without any PvP (optional participation in the Justice System aside).Unknown_poster wrote: »
A valid point on open world PvP, but what is your opinion on cross-faction PvE in the neutral locations? That's the direction this thread appears to be taking right now.Unknown_poster wrote: »Just realize you're never going to be able to run around ganking pve toons and your stress levels and whining will drop away. Only reason you have cyrodiil is because they hired the guy from DAOC and he convinced them that all the little people who like to pull the wings off flies would flock to their game. It didn't happen and they weren't able to pull off their grand vision with the tech they have, so you're in for more frustrated keyboard venting in the forums.
My opinion is that pvp is limited, controlled, and always consensual. As soon as you make it that people in an area HAVE to pvp in order to do pve content you are going to lose those of us who cbfed to play their reindeer games. I'll give you an example from years back. SWG before they screwed to pooch with the infamous NGE made jedi a long grind to get and rare. But those who got jedi were forced to lurk in corners of maps to level. If you used a lightsaber or force powers in the vision range of a npc or another player (including other jedi) you gained "visibility". Which limited you to basically killing pigs in the forest for a really long grind. Once your visibility was high enough you appeared as a target on player character bounty boards as a mission. Gank groups would form and come find you in the wilderness and kill you. Problem was, if you were killed that way you lost up to 8 hours of exp. Now the implementation of the justice system seems to have safeguards in place to stop such activity from being forced, such as paying your bounty to clear it, if there was no way to clear it I would be taking a long hard look at where to spend my disposable dollars next.
Yes, I was one of those jedi. It so turned me off to pvp that I didn't pvp in another mmo for almost 10 years. Finally started getting into it in SWTOR when I played that, because their arenas at that time were pretty much to only pvp experience you had. And it was fun.
I hadn't given any more detail because we don't know how the removal of Veteran Ranks will affect the content in the other faction territories, and I didn't want to speculate. Here's an idea though:Meaning how would it determine which faction is v1-5 and which is v6-10.
Currently if you are AD your v1-5 is EP and v6-10 is DC, for EP I think it's DC and then AD and for DC it's AD then EP or something like that. So there is scaling issue with these areas as AD char in EP would be v1-5 and DC char it would be v6-10.
Sure, only a reworking of how Cadwell's Silver and Gold function would make that work, but with the removal of Veteran Ranks in the future, something must already be planned around this. This is a suggestion that goes along with that.Storywise (and Seht knows I don't really care about that stuff in an MMO), you can't make the VR1-10 zones open to all alliances since they are part of Caldwel's SIlver & Gold (you can't even access them if you haven't finished the main quest).
You are throwing idea around but not putting too much thought into it. Of course removal of veteran ranks will have it's impact yet still we will need progressively harder content to get those champion points and get tougher.
Most likely the quests in the enemy faction areas are not going away so they need to represent some difficulty currently in veteran levels. So per faction there would basically be just one veteran area unexplored by both persons from different factions. Currently that area is totally different in terms of difficulty for those.
Personally I cannot think any way of making that work in difficulty and quest wise to 2 different faction players to go together.
The difficulty of everything is back-scaled to Level 50, and player characters' power is also reduced to Level 50 equivalent. This is my current understanding of what's going to happen with the Champion System anyway.
Assume now, that the restrictions of having to complete Cadwell's Silver before Gold is removed, and you can choose which faction territory to go to. Now, everything is Level 50 equivalent and players can be in either of the enemy faction territories first. Then, it is easy for them to be together.
The only problem now is the question of difficulty and challenge if everything is Level 50, but that's what ZOS will have to deal with anyway if they are replacing a vertical progression system with a horizontal one, and is already a problem under my current understanding of what the Champion System will be.
The issue of difficulty and challenge already exists as a result of the system, I'm just suggesting an idea that could work under that system.Edited by Enodoc on October 17, 2014 3:18PMUESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Also, the Earth Forge, Eyevea and Coldharbor should obviously be faction neutral as they are in the story line.
WIN-WIN!!!
Honestly, Cold Harbour should be faction neutral with player from all three cooperating to take out Molag Bal.
As a PvP zone it would just be infuriating. I also think that when you clear it and get into the Cadwell quests, you should open up both zones, and should share them with the other off factions. So when you get to VR1 as a Covenant, you get access to Auridon and Stonefalls, you share Stonefalls with Dominion vets and Auridon with Pact vets.1 -
Enemy-of-Coldharbour✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I disagree with the OP need for this.Silivren (Silly) Thalionwen | Altmer Templar | Magicka | 9-Trait Master Crafter/Jeweler | Master Angler | PVE Main - Killed by U35
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Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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Care to elaborate? Cross-faction PvE makes lore-sense in Neutral Zones, so it just seems logical to be working towards that. [Technical issues as stated above aside.]cgipervert wrote: »I disagree with the OP need for this.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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guybrushtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Going by the story, I always found the ongoing faction seperation quite hilarious actually.
Cadwells's silver/gold spoiler ahead:I mean the game literally tells you, that at which shore you washed up was entirely random. Meridia apparently goes through significant effort to show you that each of the alliances has their own subjectively valid reasons for being at war with the others and that all of them are good and honorable in their own right (or at least that's what the writers apparently tried to get it across); it's almost as if it were meant to be an allegory to the pointlessness of war in general that should by all means culminate in you transcending their mutual hatred and mistrust for each other.
Yet, despite of everything, you apparently go right back to cyrodiil/high end zone, basically saying "*** this ***, I'm going to kill all of these *** on sight just because."
Or maybe they're just trying to say that the main character really is a *** of epic proportions.Edited by guybrushtb16_ESO on October 17, 2014 11:23PM2 -
Yusuf✭✭✭✭✭We have Cyrodiil and the Justice System for PVP, imo we don't even need a duel-function anymore after this.
However, i would love to see all Factions in one zone and heck, i've always wanted to go cross-faction dungeon-runs etc.3 -
Ragefist✭✭✭✭SuraklinPrime wrote: »Please can this game have spaceships, i like spaceships and other games I like have them.
amusing, would you be ok with orbital stations? Imperial Battlespire could do0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SuraklinPrime wrote: »Please can this game have spaceships, i like spaceships and other games I like have them.
amusing, would you be ok with orbital stations? Imperial Battlespire could do
Does the Battlespire exist in the 2nd Era? I mean I'd freakin' love to tear through it in a raid.1 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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I don't think there's much history on the Battlespire to say when it came into existence. I always assumed it was a Third Empire (Septim Dynasty) location, but there's no real reasoning for that. It could exist during the Second Era in some form or another, and I agree it would make a great raid dungeon. Perhaps even a 24-person group, since that's something that the Group Finder allows for.starkerealm wrote: »SuraklinPrime wrote: »Please can this game have spaceships, i like spaceships and other games I like have them.
amusing, would you be ok with orbital stations? Imperial Battlespire could do
Does the Battlespire exist in the 2nd Era? I mean I'd freakin' love to tear through it in a raid.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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Gedalya✭✭✭✭✭Plenty of other places for PVP, completely unneeded.
While I don't necessarily agree with OP's point; regarding the above comment, what other places exist for PvP excluding Cyrodiil? In fact, if anything, since launch there are fewere PvP areas as there are fewer campaigns in Cyrodiil.
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Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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Which of OP's points? I also don't think open world PvP is necessarily a good idea, but I don't see any particular [non-technical] downsides in cross-faction PvE.
While I don't necessarily agree with OP's point; regarding the above comment, what other places exist for PvP excluding Cyrodiil? In fact, if anything, since launch there are fewere PvP areas as there are fewer campaigns in Cyrodiil.Plenty of other places for PVP, completely unneeded.
There are plenty of places for PvP within Cyrodiil; it may only just be there, but Cyrodiil is huge! There's also the upcoming new content (Imperial City, Justice System) that add PvP places.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp1 -
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✭✭✭✭✭Which of OP's points? I also don't think open world PvP is necessarily a good idea, but I don't see any particular [non-technical] downsides in cross-faction PvE.
I have the weird suspicion that the different alliances inherit an automatic PvP flag when dealing with players from the other two factions.
I could be wrong, but its one of the only explanations for why Cold Harbour is faction specific, rather than turning you loose with players from all three Alliances.1
