Sneak Attack – Short Synopsis & Proposed Changes

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · October 2014

I am Posting this for Decimus,

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ - @ZOS_EricWroebel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

LINK at Tamriel Foundry

So, after reading peoples’ comments on the sneak damage, and whether it should be nerfed or not, I’ve come up with some creative solutions that I think would make everyone happy.
Please scroll to the end of this post if you don’t want to read the justification.

I would appreciate if someone can post this on the PTS forums in a pretty form (as I do not have access there at the moment) and tag some developers in it

Premise

Rogue is a classic RPG character that wears leather armour and focuses on stealth & dexterity, dealing high single target damage to enemies from stealth and all kinds of tricks, such as restealthing/vanishing, different stuns, incapacitates, blinding powder etc.
A rogue does not use staves & make force fields around him, nor does he use healing magic. They compensate for this by being evasive and having good burst damage and/or crowd control.
The regular attacks of rogues & assassins do not usually deal a lot of damage, as they tend to deal the biggest part of it in bursts.

Here are links for those unfamiliar with this classic RPG character (and its variations):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief_(character_class)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(character_class)

Argument

The reality in ESO is, that you cannot play a character similar to what is described above.

Stealth

Restealthing in combat is not possible for anyone but Nightblades via Shadow Cloak, and even for Nightblades it is extremely difficult, especially when there are toggleable skills and potions to counter it.
It can be argued whether this stealth even gives you a real advantage, or just an opportunity for the opponent to heal up and dmg shield while you are invisible.

There are also zero stamina based skills that benefit from the Cloak by increased damage or conditions applied on the opponent. The only skill that has anything to do with stealth in the game is Veiled Strike (and costs/scales with magicka)
Sneak Attack Damage (live):

Sneak attack damage on live is the closest resemblance we have to the classic rogue/assassin gameplay, although certain armour/skill/stat combinations might allow for the distribution of too high damage.

It can range anywhere between 1,4k-2,4k, depending on player & build.
Sneak Attack Damage (PTS):

Sneak attack damage on PTS deals less damage than spells (that can be instant cast) deal from out of stealth (I’m looking at you, Crystal Shards). The benefit you get from Sneak is around 100-200 damage and a stun (more on that later).

(I know someone will refuse to believe me about Crystal Shards hitting so hard, so here they are with a certain build: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=30a43ki&s=8#.VElz2_msU8q)
(PTS Sneak Attack damage source:[url="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUkan0BK36U"]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUkan0BK36U[/url])

Burst damage

If you critted 1,8k with Snipe before patch, prepare to crit for 1,3k afterwards. You will bring someone with 3,5k health to 60% health. Due to shorter animation, you won’t be able to land a Heavy Attack at the same time either. So, add one Poison Injection and you get 1,7-1,8k maximum burst damage from stealth (assuming target has impenetrable traits on gear).
Casting another Snipe after the first one takes 1,3 seconds+the time it takes to land. By the time second Snipe lands (dealing 600-800 damage), the opponent has already broken out of the stun and healed/dmg shielded to full health.

Out of stealth, the best burst damage you can have with the rogue tools of Dual Wield and/or Bow is:

Ambush(300-400)->Soul Harvest(1,4k~)->Flying Blade(700-800) (2k-3k damage) [Nightblade Specific]
Snipe(800-1k)->Poison Injection(400-600) (1k-2k damage)

So you will actually have better burst damage out of stealth than from stealth, assuming the target isn’t blocking.

After the patch, Magicka builds will still have access to far superior burst damage without even having to stealth, such as

Ambush(900-1,2k)->Soul Harvest(1,4k~)->Surprise Attack(700-800) for 2k-4k damage (Ambush deals more damage than in the Stamina version)

Crystal Fragments (1k-1.8k)[proc]->Crystal Fragments(1k-1.8k)->Endless Fury(1,3k) for 3k-4k+ damage
Survivability

Due to lack of reliable crowd control (as they can all be broken), fights with multiple enemies often boil down to resources and damage shields/heals, or burst damage.
If you try to take opponents down with sustained single target damage, you will soon find out that they heal/get healed or dmg shield faster, or at a equal rate as you deal damage.
Also, when comparing rogue mechanics for survival (Roll Dodge & unreliable Dark Cloak in case of ESO), you’ll quickly notice that they do not match the dmg shield spam or healing.
Crowd Control:

Crowd Control in this game cannot be relied on, due to the fact that it is so easily broken (repeatedly). I know this is due to the fact that skills do not have cooldowns, but it still doesn’t help the rogue/assassin way of playing and makes it extremely hard to survive against multiple enemies.
The saddest thing is, when you attack someone from sneak and stun him, that stun actually works against you unless you deal enough damage to kill the opponent during it. When the stun is broken, opponent gets the 5 second immunity to CC for the exact duration when you would want to CC him (when he’s low on health).
That makes it so much easier to just dmg shield/heal up when you don’t have to worry about anything else.

Conclusion

Facts: A rogue/assassin requires one or more of the following: high burst damage, lots of skills revolving around stealth, strong crowd control.

Bonus points for including: Poisons, combo moves, pickpocketing, trap disarming

The burst damage seems to be going away, which is the only aspect of rogue/assassin gameplay we currently have.

I hope you can all see now where the concerns regarding the rogue playstyle come from. I did the best I could explaining them.
I understand that too low TTK (Time To Kill) is a concern for people (although it will still exist in form of several magicka builds, see above), and instead of flaming & complaining, I am hoping we can find a creative solution that expands on game mechanics and build diversity, instead of the other way around. A solution that all player groups can approve of.

Option 1

Keep the sneak damage, but make it conditional so people have a chance to react/anticipate
a) Only on wounded targets, so no one who’s just riding around somewhere gets “one shot”. This would also bring a strategic element to the game, where you could lay traps for the enemy with caltrops, volcanic runes etc.a)
b) Only works on target that has been “focused” for x seconds (you would have to hover your cursor over him/her). Target would be aware that he is being “focused” on. (would be a new mechanic)

Option 2

Introduction of new stamina based skills revolving around stealth, that deal very good damage on enemy players but require certain conditions.

a) Stamina based stealth openers, powerful moves that can only be initiated from stealth (or invisibility).

On melee range, damage would be higher than any non-ultimate skill and/or would apply conditions to the enemy.

A ranged alternative would deal slightly less damage to take risk/reward into account.

b) Combo moves, which deal high damage to opponent if he has a certain status effect, or has been hit by another “combo” skill.

Option 3

Making Crowd Control more reliable.

a) Make stealth CC unbreakable (and make it visually different to make sure people don’t get confused).

b) Introduce other unbreakable CCs. These would probably require a cooldown, or another mechanic that prevents spamming them.

In addition to previous options:

Option 4

Give everyone in Cyrodiil more health.
Tune skills that scale off the maximum health percentage to scale up to only x amount of health. (Warning: This could make DKs/Templars slightly less tanky in PvP).

Do you think a solution wouldn’t work?
Do you have better idea(s)?
Do you hate my guts for making you read all this?

Let me know what you think on the comments below & keep it constructive please.

Sincerely,
Decimus

Varicite · October 2014

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

There are also zero stamina based skills that benefit from the Cloak by increased damage or conditions applied on the opponent. The only skill that has anything to do with stealth in the game is Veiled Strike (and costs/scales with magicka)

I just thought that I'd point out that every ability gets a 10% damage bonus when exiting stealth / invis when you are a NB if you have the Master Assassin passive, which everyone should.

Saying that there are zero skills that benefit from the cloak by increased damage is misleading, as every skill benefits from cloak by increased damage.

Using Cloak = 10% increased damage on attack made from invis, increased armor and spell resistance for 4 seconds.

That's obviously not including the benefits from the cloak and its morphs themselves.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · October 2014

Varicite wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

There are also zero stamina based skills that benefit from the Cloak by increased damage or conditions applied on the opponent. The only skill that has anything to do with stealth in the game is Veiled Strike (and costs/scales with magicka)

I just thought that I'd point out that every ability gets a 10% damage bonus when exiting stealth / invis when you are a NB if you have the Master Assassin passive, which everyone should.

Saying that there are zero skills that benefit from the cloak by increased damage is misleading, as every skill benefits from cloak by increased damage.

Using Cloak = 10% increased damage on attack made from invis, increased armor and spell resistance for 4 seconds.

That's obviously not including the benefits from the cloak and its morphs themselves.

Umm Ok, 10% more damage and some Armor and Spell Resistance for 4 secs, is definitely not gonna turn the tide of Battle...

Varicite · October 2014

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

There are also zero stamina based skills that benefit from the Cloak by increased damage or conditions applied on the opponent. The only skill that has anything to do with stealth in the game is Veiled Strike (and costs/scales with magicka)

I just thought that I'd point out that every ability gets a 10% damage bonus when exiting stealth / invis when you are a NB if you have the Master Assassin passive, which everyone should.

Saying that there are zero skills that benefit from the cloak by increased damage is misleading, as every skill benefits from cloak by increased damage.

Using Cloak = 10% increased damage on attack made from invis, increased armor and spell resistance for 4 seconds.

That's obviously not including the benefits from the cloak and its morphs themselves.

Umm Ok, 10% more damage and some Armor and Spell Resistance for 4 secs, is definitely not gonna turn the tide of Battle...

10% more damage on one of the few abilities that can let you crit against Impenetrable w/ its 100% crit chance buff?

That's definitely not gonna turn the tide of battle ever?

Soon, w/ sneak attacks being closer to normal crits, an on-demand crit ability might be considered "burst" is all I'm really getting at here.

Now w/ that said, I generally forego the use of cloak unless absolutely necessary and definitely couldn't see myself maintaining it for the crit buff on my stamina builds.

Seriously, 3 cloaks and you're done most often. That's more of an issue if you ask me.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · October 2014

Varicite wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

There are also zero stamina based skills that benefit from the Cloak by increased damage or conditions applied on the opponent. The only skill that has anything to do with stealth in the game is Veiled Strike (and costs/scales with magicka)

I just thought that I'd point out that every ability gets a 10% damage bonus when exiting stealth / invis when you are a NB if you have the Master Assassin passive, which everyone should.

Saying that there are zero skills that benefit from the cloak by increased damage is misleading, as every skill benefits from cloak by increased damage.

Using Cloak = 10% increased damage on attack made from invis, increased armor and spell resistance for 4 seconds.

That's obviously not including the benefits from the cloak and its morphs themselves.

Umm Ok, 10% more damage and some Armor and Spell Resistance for 4 secs, is definitely not gonna turn the tide of Battle...

Seriously, 3 cloaks and you're done most often. That's more of an issue if you ask me.

Especially if you are a Stamina build NB and not a NB Magicka Caster, I under stand your POV but that number (10%) is so small in relation to the Sneak Attack Nerf that is about to hit us that it's not even funny..and I am not laughing..

I understand that Snipe needed a Nerf but Overall Sneak Attack damage too, um NO that's just ridiculous as now the Magicka / Stamina imbalance will just be back to being way out of Whack.

I myself am starting to come to the conclusion it seems that ZOS just doesn't want to deal with the Magicka / Stamina imbalance and the Nightblade class, I mean really... Shadow Cloak (and it's Morphs) still isn't fixed and that's been going on for about 7 months now..

To me Personally, ZOS is now on Probation and I am watching the game very closely, so they better start getting in gear and fixing stuff or they will lose my SUB.

jelliedsoup · October 2014

I feel the same. Their intense focus on magicka and class skills is limited and imbalanced.

If 1.5 makes my character worse, I'm a stam archer, I'm out.

They have no issue with the taloned dk, or streak sorc but making an archer on par is for some reason just unfair. As archers have had the shortest period with their light burning brighter it appears that zos thinks their time is up, as will mine be if they take a backwards step here.

I have played bow since beta, low magicka
I get the impression zos doesn't want me to play.

Mojomonkeyman · October 2014

In any other game a oneshot thief/assassin/rogue has to build glassy and put himself at great risk to come into melee range with mostly limited stealth timers to pull of his one big attack.

This is not the case in ESO. The risk part is not there:

Unlike other games an assassin bow user doesnt have to give up much stats to achieve high damage bow stealth attacks.
Unlike other games an assassin bow user doesnt have to come close risking him being discovered.
Unlike other games an assassin bow user is not limited to a tiny "stealth window" to unload his blow.

Decimus fails to understand that this is not a game, where oneshot-assassin type playstyle is wanted, balanced or needed. Every friggin MMO has this stereotype, ESO not. I like ESO. If you dont, go play a game where you can play a backstab thief with the corelated disadvantages.

Your analysis attesting sorcs of regularly putting out 2 consecutive stealth shards hitting with up to 1.8k is such nonsense and not comparable to what happens with bows.

There is like 1 sorc using that stygian build for 1000 little NB wannabe legolasses waiting in safety til someone riding a horse shows up, then shooting 2k hits from stealth followed by Camo hunter + heavy/light weave before anyone knows he`s there.

Stop the immature crying, stop threatening to quit the game (Decimus claims every day he quit already, why is he making crythreads then?), stop being spoiled little brats.

This is what most of the community wants, I hope ZOS realises this and won`t judge by the number of whine threads made by NBs (oh the surprise).

Varicite · October 2014

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

[...]

Obviously those who play stealth builds are going to be upset, and those who don't will be happy about these changes.

[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote and response]

jelliedsoup · October 2014

Unhappy is an understatement, I get the impression we're not wanted by zos. Only those who like to be frustrated will remain playing as a stealth stam build. For me, I only want to play as this type of build.

jelliedsoup · October 2014

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

In any other game a oneshot thief/assassin/rogue has to build glassy and put himself at great risk to come into melee range with mostly limited stealth timers to pull of his one big attack.

This is not the case in ESO. The risk part is not there:

Unlike other games an assassin bow user doesnt have to give up much stats to achieve high damage bow stealth attacks.
Unlike other games an assassin bow user doesnt have to come close risking him being discovered.
Unlike other games an assassin bow user is not limited to a tiny "stealth window" to unload his blow.

Decimus fails to understand that this is not a game, where oneshot-assassin type playstyle is wanted, balanced or needed. Every friggin MMO has this stereotype, ESO not. I like ESO. If you dont, go play a game where you can play a backstab thief with the corelated disadvantages.

Your analysis attesting sorcs of regularly putting out 2 consecutive stealth shards hitting with up to 1.8k is such nonsense and not comparable to what happens with bows.

There is like 1 sorc using that stygian build for 1000 little NB wannabe legolasses waiting in safety til someone riding a horse shows up, then shooting 2k hits from stealth followed by Camo hunter + heavy/light weave before anyone knows he`s there.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Once my glass cannon build is discovered I'm pretty much dead.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · October 2014

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

In any other game a oneshot thief/assassin/rogue has to build glassy and put himself at great risk to come into melee range with mostly limited stealth timers to pull of his one big attack.

This is not the case in ESO. The risk part is not there:

Unlike other games an assassin bow user doesnt have to give up much stats to achieve high damage bow stealth attacks.
Unlike other games an assassin bow user doesnt have to come close risking him being discovered.
Unlike other games an assassin bow user is not limited to a tiny "stealth window" to unload his blow.

Decimus fails to understand that this is not a game, where oneshot-assassin type playstyle is wanted, balanced or needed. Every friggin MMO has this stereotype, ESO not. I like ESO. If you dont, go play a game where you can play a backstab thief with the corelated disadvantages.

Your analysis attesting sorcs of regularly putting out 2 consecutive stealth shards hitting with up to 1.8k is such nonsense and not comparable to what happens with bows.

There is like 1 sorc using that stygian build for 1000 little NB wannabe legolasses waiting in safety til someone riding a horse shows up, then shooting 2k hits from stealth followed by Camo hunter + heavy/light weave before anyone knows he`s there.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Once my glass cannon build is discovered I'm pretty much dead.

Exactly, but if I use a Stick and skirt build with a Resto Staff then I will be ok right ??

Well, what if I don't want to play like that Huh... maybe I want full Medium armor (which is what Kotaro wears), Maybe I want to use a Bow and I want to use just Dual wield daggers or swords (which Kotaro does), and use Stamina abilities and weapons like a warrior does and still be Ultra sneaky and fade away in the shadows, That is what I want and it seems many others do as well.

Since I am a Nightblade my damage /DPS should actually be way beyond any of the other three classes, especially if I gear for all medium armor and use a Bow and Dual Wield. I should be a Glass Ganking Cannon if I choose to be and we should be just as feared as a Stick and skirt build Dragonknight in our own way.

I agree with Decimus's Information here totally, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it.

I mean,

You want to be a ultra strong Tank there is the Dragonknight, he can heal up and take massive punishment and kick some butt.

You want to be a Healer beyond compare and kick butt, you can be a Templar.

You want to be a Wizard type with great AOE, summon pets and escape in the Blink of an eye, there you go, your a Sorceror.

But if you want to be the Best Damage dealing Single target DPS sneaky assassin you can be a Nightblade, oh wait...No you can't because You people cry and act Immature if they get Ganked and then Sneak Damage gets nerfed.

Then Dragonknights should have their Dragonblood and armor taken away, Templars cannot heal any more and Sorcs cant use Bolt Escape ever again.

Oh wait, we can't have that because we need to have a Game right.

And no it's not what most of the Community wants, because many others and I feel the exact same way, our Favorite Class, the Nightblade class is being Broken and trashed and alot of us wont stand for it, I definitely wont stand for it.

Sometimes you have to make a stand and this one is mine and many others, if this sneak attack damage Nerf goes through (especially at the proposed change of like 20-30% less damage), I see ZOS losing a whole lot of Subs, as many Nightblade players will be extremely upset since we have already been playing with a broken class all this time and many will definitely leave.

And anyway where is ZOS's slow approach now..they take like 10 yrs (exaggeration) to make adjustments to the Magicka /Stamina Imbalance (what did they say- we don't want to move too fast, we need to do it in increments) but instead it's like Bam, we have to Nerf Sneak Attack damage, yeah 20-30% is good.

How about 5-10% first, then maybe a little more if they still think it's too powerful. Nope this has to be done FAST, definitely not done in increments, this seems like a knee jerk reaction to placate some hurt feelings not a real thought out decision.

Totally Ridiculous.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version and edited the response]

Varicite · October 2014

I'm just curious what makes you think that NBs should be the "best damage dealers"?

Shouldn't all 4 of the classes be balanced in their damage dealing capability?

I'm not saying that they are, but I believe that they should be. Nobody should have the right to simply be far and away "the best" because they hit 1 button on the startup screen, imo.

ZOS_AmeliaR · October 2014

Hey everyone. Let's make sure we're focusing this discussion on the topic at hand and avoid making personal attacks or insulting other players' skills. We're going to clean up some comments in this thread that have violated our Code of Conduct and encourage everyone to keep this thread focused and constructive. Thank you for understanding.

MiyaTheUnbroken · October 2014

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

In any other game a oneshot thief/assassin/rogue has to build glassy and put himself at great risk to come into melee range with mostly limited stealth timers to pull of his one big attack.

This is not the case in ESO. The risk part is not there:

Unlike other games an assassin bow user doesnt have to give up much stats to achieve high damage bow stealth attacks.
Unlike other games an assassin bow user doesnt have to come close risking him being discovered.
Unlike other games an assassin bow user is not limited to a tiny "stealth window" to unload his blow.

Decimus fails to understand that this is not a game, where oneshot-assassin type playstyle is wanted, balanced or needed. Every friggin MMO has this stereotype, ESO not. I like ESO. If you dont, go play a game where you can play a backstab thief with the corelated disadvantages.

Your analysis attesting sorcs of regularly putting out 2 consecutive stealth shards hitting with up to 1.8k is such nonsense and not comparable to what happens with bows.

There is like 1 sorc using that stygian build for 1000 little NB wannabe legolasses waiting in safety til someone riding a horse shows up, then shooting 2k hits from stealth followed by Camo hunter + heavy/light weave before anyone knows he`s there.

Doesn't have to give up stats? I'm not sure how you could think that. In order to make the uber damage bow build you have to give up health and magicka. As in having 1.9k health. No joke. I have 1901 health points. Do you have any idea how many times I get one shot by sorcerers? And heaven help me if I should stumble down some stairs. Again, not a joke, I have come close to dying walking down stairs too fast and catching a bit of air.

You could be right about us not having to risk being discovered if cloak and stealth worked properly, but thankfully for you they don't! Thanks to the stuck in combat bug every shot is a risk, even if you kill your enemy. You can't stealth if you're stuck in combat, cloaking does NOT put you back in stealth, and often times it's a corpse that's keeping you stuck, so you can't even kill to end the combat.

I won't proclaim to know what the community wants, as I have not asked every one and it adds nothing to your argument to make up numbers and generalities based purely on your own perception, rather than actual numbers being based on research and facts. That being said, I hope ZOS realizes many who play a stamina based NB are feeling alienated by the development team, and would appreciate some assurance that they do want us in this game. These recent changes meant to nerf a build that has only been around short time, while continuing to allow glaring imbalance issues to persist despite months of complaints seems heavy handed at best.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

GrimMauKin · October 2014

To my mind, any talk of nerfing (or indeed improving) Nightblades is irrelevant until all the bugs relating to them are fixed. Stealth is great when it works, but I'm still being regularly detected by MOBS well outside of my detection circle (sometimes even when approaching from behind); Shadow Cloak is great when it doesn't fail to cancel attacks/break instantly/not work at all; Surprise Attack is great when it doesn't fail to do any damage at all etc. etc.

I'm not really sure what my Nightblade is capable of as often it's just a case of hitting a key and hoping!

Crescent · October 2014

Isn't it nice when you see an official icon on the thread thinking it's an official response only to find out it was some mod editing out some harmless curse word?

Nox_Aeterna · October 2014

Totally fine with this nerf , it was comming.

Most MMOs dont allow for FPS gameplay , you dont get to insta kill other players almost always with broken burst builds that the guy never even had a chance to react. (Well anyway assuming both are the same or similar lvl.)

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · October 2014

Varicite wrote: »

I'm just curious what makes you think that NBs should be the "best damage dealers"?

Shouldn't all 4 of the classes be balanced in their damage dealing capability?

1. because their focus is on single target and 2. No, they shouldn't unless I have access to the same healing abilities and or tanking abilities and or Escape abilities that the other three classes have.

Maybe when spellcasting comes out and I can make Green Assassin's Blood (a perfect replica of Green Dragon's Blood from the Dragonknights skill line, or a Teleport escape like Bolt escape) then Nightblades can be more Balanced in their damage capability to the others.

jelliedsoup · October 2014

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Totally fine with this nerf , it was comming.

Most MMOs dont allow for FPS gameplay , you dont get to insta kill other players almost always with broken burst builds that the guy never even had a chance to react. (Well anyway assuming both are the same or similar lvl.)

"most MMOs don't...." Is not justification. Personally I don't see it as relevant.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · October 2014

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Totally fine with this nerf , it was comming.

Most MMOs dont allow for FPS gameplay , you dont get to insta kill other players almost always with broken burst builds that the guy never even had a chance to react. (Well anyway assuming both are the same or similar lvl.)

Then Zos better give us Stamina Nightblades some buffs and incentives (like some strong class heals or survivability or maybe just fix the darn Magicka / Stamina imbalance already and Shadow Cloak already) for us to stick around.

Oh and not Magicka Buffs either..

Nox_Aeterna · October 2014

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Totally fine with this nerf , it was comming.

Most MMOs dont allow for FPS gameplay , you dont get to insta kill other players almost always with broken burst builds that the guy never even had a chance to react. (Well anyway assuming both are the same or similar lvl.)

Then Zos better give us Stamina Nightblades some buffs and incentives (like some strong class heals or survivability or maybe just fix the darn Magicka / Stamina imbalance already and Shadow Cloak already) for us to stick around.

Oh and not Magicka Buffs either..

And now you are just asking for a much bigger issue to be fixed. Any class can complain their magicka builds are stronger than their stamina ones.

The next 2 changes that should give this any chance to change are the champ system and the spellcrafting system.

Tankqull · October 2014

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

...

After the patch, Magicka builds will still have access to far superior burst damage without even having to stealth, such as

Ambush(900-1,2k)->Soul Harvest(1,4k~)->Surprise Attack(700-800) for 2k-4k damage (Ambush deals more damage than in the Stamina version)

Crystal Fragments (1k-1.8k)[proc]->Crystal Fragments(1k-1.8k)->Endless Fury(1,3k) for 3k-4k+ damage
Survivability
...

sorry but these numbers are so far from reality its unbelievable...
crystalfrags hits for 600-800 depending on your equip wich depending on your opponents impenetrable values generates a max of 1,2k when critting wich is nearly never the case vs someone who´s worth a thought. endless fury as you have allready said does ~10-15% less dmg than frags but without any need of casting. so theese numbers in reality drop to
700+700+600 just for correct assumptions.

Vizier · October 2014

@OP Nightblade is not a classic rogue in TES games but since ESO only has 4 classes that absorbed the rest of the 20ish TES classes there should be some place for the classic rogue build that is viable.

I'm not unbiased. I like to play as a cagey, illusive, opportunistic rogue and despite the deficiencies of Stam build NB and broken stealth mechanics and cloak skill for months I still managed to have fun playing. Part of being able to deal with this though was believing ZoS was actually focused on fixing the class and balancing the game....now. I honestly can't be so certain. There seems to be some kind of dynamic behind the scenes where some people in ZoS just can't see past their own pet projects and biases. I say "seems" to be some dynamic. I'm not saying that's the case, but I'm watching.

If there is some method to the madness in that a damage from sneak nerf makes sense from a balancing perspective I'll be fine with it, but a nerf to damage from stealth without OTHER changes only works to widen the gap between magica and stamina builds. If Impenetrable is getting a major nerf that allows crit damage to proc more often and things like poison use become available and or cloak is more reliable or my glass cannon is more survivable once found out due to other changes in things like charge, talons etc, then a nerf to damage from stealth makes sense. If this change causes the game to become less fun to play, well..I mean there is a balance here. I love TES and ESO in general but I sub and spend 20 hours a week playing because it is fun. If that changes I will have fun doing something else..that simple. Question for me is how much patience in ZoS do I have left? I honestly don't know the answer to that and for me that says something.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · October 2014

For the people posting on the official forum thread.

The thread is not about:

Nightblades.
Whether Stealth Damage was, or wasn’t “OP” before patch.

Crystal Shards/Whatever other skill damage.

What the thread is about:
Assassin/Rogue style character gameplay (as described on the article).
The implications the Stealth Damage change will have on this style of playing.

Compromises & Solutions that would make the popular playstyle work & possibly even feel better after the patch, while getting rid of the sneak damage complaints.

If you want to complain about things that the thread does not focus on, please write your own article/thread about them.

Sincerely,
Decimus

Link- http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/sneak-attack-short-synopsis-proposed-changes/

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · October 2014

Tankqull wrote: »

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

...

After the patch, Magicka builds will still have access to far superior burst damage without even having to stealth, such as

Ambush(900-1,2k)->Soul Harvest(1,4k~)->Surprise Attack(700-800) for 2k-4k damage (Ambush deals more damage than in the Stamina version)

Crystal Fragments (1k-1.8k)[proc]->Crystal Fragments(1k-1.8k)->Endless Fury(1,3k) for 3k-4k+ damage
Survivability
...

sorry but these numbers are so far from reality its unbelievable...
crystalfrags hits for 600-800 depending on your equip wich depending on your opponents impenetrable values generates a max of 1,2k when critting wich is nearly never the case vs someone who´s worth a thought. endless fury as you have allready said does ~10-15% less dmg than frags but without any need of casting. so theese numbers in reality drop to
700+700+600 just for correct assumptions.

Umm a No, correct reality is that you are wrong.

This pic below is crystalfrags on impenetrable. Yup a max of 1.2k but hitting for 1.1k.

http://oi62.tinypic.com/ojkx2u.jpg

So the numbers are Kinda spot on.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO · October 2014

GrimMauKin wrote: »

To my mind, any talk of nerfing (or indeed improving) Nightblades is irrelevant until all the bugs relating to them are fixed. Stealth is great when it works, but I'm still being regularly detected by MOBS well outside of my detection circle (sometimes even when approaching from behind); Shadow Cloak is great when it doesn't fail to cancel attacks/break instantly/not work at all; Surprise Attack is great when it doesn't fail to do any damage at all etc. etc.

I'm not really sure what my Nightblade is capable of as often it's just a case of hitting a key and hoping!

I totally agree with you, because it seems they want to bring us up a little and then knock us down.

khele23eb17_ESO · October 2014

Crescent wrote: »

Isn't it nice when you see an official icon on the thread thinking it's an official response only to find out it was some mod editing out some harmless curse word?

That doesnt surprise me anymore. In fact thats my first assumption when I see the official icon. Im quite amazed if its anything related to the topic being discussed.

CapuchinSeven · October 2014

Crescent wrote: »

Isn't it nice when you see an official icon on the thread thinking it's an official response only to find out it was some mod editing out some harmless curse word?

Yes actually, really annoying.

Tapio75 · October 2014

If i read this correctly, my PVE gameplay is suffering from PVP demands.

I got tired of this in other game and quit, while i love ESO and velieve in ZOS foing nice additions to game in the future they will all be canceled out if my characters start to suffer because PVP gameplay

twistedmonk · October 2014

If anything, we should be asking for longer Time To Kill (TTK) so that this game will require player skill in PvP. Good rule of thumb for TTK in PvP games is around 15-30 seconds. Or even longer if they are equally skilled and game is balanced.

Asking for insta-kill builds , while it may be fun for the few, is not fun for the many. It is definitely not good for a healthy pvp game.

While the archetype rogue is a fun character for a few, it should also require a high player skill cap. attacking somebody from stealth and pressing 1 key and doing 60-100% of their health is not player skill and is definitely not desirable for an interesting and blaanced PvP game.

Tavore1138 · October 2014

As I've said elsewhere there are probably a couple of abilities that hit a little too hard from stealth right now - the correct course would have been to make tweaks to those particular skills not to nerf all stealth damage.

Stealthy builds in the world of TES are very much lore consistent so the real focus should be on ensuring that no single ability can rule in PvP.

But even saying that if someone is willing to totally sacrifice other armour traits and styles to run medium with divines to max out crit then that should give them an edge in crit, including crit from stealth - otherwise why bother having build options at all.

As has often been the case ZOS are making the wrong change to solve a genuine problem.

When you take into account the other changes coming to NB & DW skills in 1.5 it does make you wonder if they really believe stamina players have somehow become OP.

Sneak Attack – Short Synopsis &amp; Proposed Changes

Sneak Attack – Short Synopsis & Proposed Changes