Should Crafting Mats Have Their Own Storage Tab/Bank Space?

Nestor · October 2014

So in other words, you still don't have any convincing arguments outside of making assumptions about how people play the game? Telling me to stop crafting so I can then hire other crafters? I mentioned the databases because your the one who brought it up.

And you call my arguments infantile.....

SaibotLiu · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

So in other words, you still don't have any convincing arguments outside of making assumptions about how people play the game?

And you call my argument infantile.....

I made it clear I wasn't trying to convince anyone. This topic has been beat to death and it's always the same tired old holdouts that can't adapt to the system and are stubbornly intent on playing the game the way it wasn't designed to be played. No assumptions have been made, you "log back out and in the game" on half a dozen mules. You've already told us how you play. Ridiculous and totally unnecessary though. I've mastered several crafting professions without needing to resort to that, you have other problems.

And I don't really care if you do play that way...the burden of proof isn't on me. I'm still waiting for someone to say why the status quo doesn't work when they've clearly been playing and paying for the game just fine. It's just not to your preference.....oh well.

starkerealm · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

.....and I haven't seen one single argument since this debate began months ago that is going to convince anyone of a differing opinion that it should be.

OK, here is the convincing argument. We are already using Mules to store mats, so we have a few hundred bag spaces to store our items. There was a poll recently where the majority of folk are using Mules for storage. The game economy has not been broken over this, prices are still decent and people are still trading and selling items.

Wow, so many issues with this post. (Not, yours, Nestor, that's just a fluke of the editing.)

SaibotLiu wrote: »

That's a poor argument and one that's already been used dozens of times. Not everyone is going to bother to do that.

Ignoring self selection, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of players already do. It also doesn't change the fact that it's a waste of time, brought about by sloppy, poorly thought out design elements.

The worst part is, you can use this argument to defend whatever you want. If drops had a 15 minute timer on them, you needed to get them to the bank, or bind them, in under 15 minutes, or they'd evaporate from your inventory, guess what? "Not everyone is going to bother to do that." Which doesn't mean it's not a terrible design decision.

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Taking certain players out of the economy because they want to go through major inconvenience to be self sufficient is not going to ruin the economy. Increasing the bag space to the extent you would have it is, across the board.

Because, having more items in the bank will be the end of western civilization as we know it?

What?

Look, right now, if you had infinite bank space, you would see less WTB/WTS/WTT trade spam in zone... and guild prices would be basically unaffected. Oh, sure, there would be a few more tomatoes in circulation from back when the drop tables were bjorked, maybe a few more imperial motifs running around, but that's about it.

Even the number of sell slots in the guild doesn't have a huge effect on the market values, except for those times when you hit a guild kiosk and there's only 60 items for sale, because only two players in the guild have actually noticed there is a guild store.

SaibotLiu wrote: »

If you're already jumping through those hoops just to avoid paying another crafter some gold to do stuff for you, you're largely a non factor outside of selling your own stuff.

Right now, the materials market goes in three directions. There's stuff you're actively gouging people on, (that's raw mats and alchemy), stuff that is only slightly more lucrative than vendoring (processed mats), and stuff you're better off just junking (most runes and provisioning mats).

None of that affects a player's self sufficiency. It does offer players an option to bilk each other, but that's about it.

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Which would go out the window if we give everyone regardless of patience the ability to make anything they want on a whim.

I don't see that happening. I don't see where you could possibly see that happening. I mean, have you never crafted in this game?

Okay, so, here's how crafting works...

For blacksmithing, clothier, and woodworking you need a base material, and a style material. Then you need to spend perks to actually make anything above level 15. You need to spend perks to pull good stuff out of an item. You need to spend perks to get decent stuff while refining, you need to spend perks to get a delivery... still with me?

And, for that you end up needing to spend points to do anything, actual skill points. Now, I know from your view on top of the mountain when you're just screwing around or whatever with your 570 unspent skill points, that's nothing, but for us mere mortals scrabbling around in the dirt, that's a non-trivial cost.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

ZOS_ShannonM · October 2014

Hey Folks,
While we understand the frustration you may be experiencing with not enough space for materials, we ask that you please keep your posts civil and constructive. It is never appropriate to resort to personal jabs or insults. We would like to keep this thread open, but will be forced to close it if the Community Code of Conduct continues to be broken. Thank you for understanding.

Ourorboros · October 2014

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference

MornaBaine · October 2014

Here's the thing. I'm a hoarder and I've played several MMOs. NEVER have I had an issue with my bank storage capacity in any other game until this one. Crafting mats is what makes that happen. ZoS needs to fix it. Not by giving us unlimited space, but by giving us AS MUCH space as beginning regular bank space, for crafting mats only. And if we want more, we have to buy it separately. I would LIKE it more if we had separate inventory space for mats instead of separate bank space because I like to PLAY my alts and I've given each of them a crafting specialty. So I'd like to be able to keep their mats on them. That, of course, would be the more generous thing for ZoS to do. But I'm also okay with it just being additional, limited, bank space. I just want them to do SOMETHING because the current system...SUCKS.

Flynch · October 2014

Short answer: Yes.

As the game progresses, there will be more pressure on your current bank space. So there are two ways to deal with this. Gold-sink the next 10-50 slots or just make life easier for all involved and have ingredients/materials have their own space. Which can also be limited.

starkerealm · October 2014

*Sits alone, jealously regarding Guild Wars 2 crafting bit system.*

For the record, I don't think Cryptic's solution of a separate inventory is the answer, I'm fine with materials in your inventory chewing up space. It's only in the bank where I really wish materials were contributing to a separate pile limit.

EDIT: With the previous posts now eaten by moderation... that paragraph doesn't really make much sense anymore.

starkerealm · October 2014

MornaBaine wrote: »

Here's the thing. I'm a hoarder and I've played several MMOs. NEVER have I had an issue with my bank storage capacity in any other game until this one. Crafting mats is what makes that happen. ZoS needs to fix it. Not by giving us unlimited space, but by giving us AS MUCH space as beginning regular bank space, for crafting mats only. And if we want more, we have to buy it separately. I would LIKE it more if we had separate inventory space for mats instead of separate bank space because I like to PLAY my alts and I've given each of them a crafting specialty. So I'd like to be able to keep their mats on them. That, of course, would be the more generous thing for ZoS to do. But I'm also okay with it just being additional, limited, bank space. I just want them to do SOMETHING because the current system...SUCKS.

The only other MMOs I remember my hording instincts coming back to bite me in were the Cryptic ones (only once they added Account Banks) and Secret World.

Cryptic would give you 10 or 20 account slots, and then require you move a horrendous amount of stuff through them. But, at the same time Star Trek started you with something like 100 inventory slots (split between a character bank and their actual character inventory).

Secret World just had a ton of random garbage that chewed up inventory space, including quest items. It's crafting components were annoying, but nowhere near as bad as what ESO throws at us. There were only 5 tiers of crafting mats, and I think 16 kinds, for a total of 80 items, plus about 40 different kits, but there was no reason to stockpile those, and crafting mats could be combined to upgrade them to the next tier.

With ESO, I just want to be able to cram my crafting mats into my bank and get back to playing. I'm slightly biased towards something like GW2, where you have a sort of scrap book (I'm told) for crafting mats. (Partially because the deranged impulsive collector instinct in me would just love the crap out of that.) But, at the same time... ESO's system... I get what the devs were going for, I understand why it's set up the way it is. But it just doesn't mesh with the way players have actually used the system. And the jump from idea to actual use is just annoying and time consuming.

SaibotLiu · October 2014

Ignoring self selection, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of players already do. It also doesn't change the fact that it's a waste of time, brought about by sloppy, poorly thought out design elements.

Again the only thing that's wasting time is logging in and out of characters to use as mules. The game provides sufficient space to do most anything you want. You're hoarding, it's a problem.

The worst part is, you can use this argument to defend whatever you want. If drops had a 15 minute timer on them, you needed to get them to the bank, or bind them, in under 15 minutes, or they'd evaporate from your inventory, guess what? "Not everyone is going to bother to do that." Which doesn't mean it's not a terrible design decision.

Inventory limit is not a design decision anymore than having trees, or combat, or water is a design decision. MMO's have inventory limits on the same scale they have the previously mentioned "design decisions". Suck it up.

Look, right now, if you had infinite bank space, you would see less WTB/WTS/WTT trade spam in zone... and guild prices would be basically unaffected. Oh, sure, there would be a few more tomatoes in circulation from back when the drop tables were bjorked, maybe a few more imperial motifs running around, but that's about it.

First of all, this comment just numbs the mind. Of course you would see less trade spam, because people don't buy stuff they can make themselves. With no inventory limit that's exactly what they'll do. And prices will be unaffected? Prices are what the players set, as simple as that. When things are not being bought because the people who would buy them are making their own, due to the fact there's no penalty for holding every crafting mat/skill known to man, yeah I think it might be reasonable to assume prices may go down. And how would having infinite bank space actually increase the availability on two of the rarer items in the game? So you're suggesting that by having limited bank space, players choose to delete extremely valuable items first. Yeah suddenly, everything else you've said actually makes sense in context.

Even the number of sell slots in the guild doesn't have a huge effect on the market values, except for those times when you hit a guild kiosk and there's only 60 items for sale, because only two players in the guild have actually noticed there is a guild store.

I'll repeat, players set the prices. The more items there are listed of the same type, the more undercutting that goes on and the lower the price becomes. Again, no idea where you get this stuff.

I don't see that happening. I don't see where you could possibly see that happening. I mean, have you never crafted in this game?

You don't see how even a moderately industrious player can make everything they ever wanted even with the way the system currently is? Right. I suppose this hilarity will be touched up on later.

For blacksmithing, clothier, and woodworking you need a base material, and a style material. Then you need to spend perks to actually make anything above level 15. You need to spend perks to pull good stuff out of an item. You need to spend perks to get decent stuff while refining, you need to spend perks to get a delivery... still with me?

And, for that you end up needing to spend points to do anything, actual skill points. Now, I know from your view on top of the mountain when you're just screwing around or whatever with your 570 unspent skill points, that's nothing, but for us mere mortals scrabbling around in the dirt, that's a non-trivial cost.

Right so SP are an issue. You don't actually need to spend 50 SP on active combat skills, since you can only really use 12 at a time. Yes most players have more SP than they really know what to do with at this point in the game. Of course a lot of players have alt's too that they use for crafting. Mastering every crafting tree is insanely easy by MMO standards, except for maybe enchanting. Most MMO's make you choose one crafting tree and that's it. Some even limit you to one character per server.

Tell you what, why don't you go find some of those "valid and acceptable answers" and try them out, rather than just going, "there are REASONS out there, somewhere!"

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. There's plenty of reasons, right now if I was a dev it'd be because watching the same 5 people cry about this topic for months on end is pretty hilarious. Reason enough IMO.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting and Flaming]

starkerealm · October 2014

EDIT: disregard

SlayerSyrena · October 2014

Yes, I'd like a separate space for my crafting materials (I do all crafts) because my character slots are precious and I'm not going to waste them on mules.

starkerealm · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

And you call my arguments infantile.....

Just, don't feed it... or touch it, you don't know where it's been.

MornaBaine · October 2014

SlayerSyrena wrote: »

Yes, I'd like a separate space for my crafting materials (I do all crafts) because my character slots are precious and I'm not going to waste them on mules.

I have 5 characters I'd like to one day play. Right now though they ARE mules. Makes me sad.