Suggestion: "Inspect" player feature

Mordria · October 2014

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

For those of you that don't already know this:

The head game designer of ESO has stated that he really, really wants there to be an "overall character strength" indicator. This is pretty much the same thing as an "inspect" feature because it lets other people know just how strong you are in relation to everyone else in the group. So expect the devs to actually consider adding this and be ready for it.

Do you have a reference/link?

I really hope they don't do something like that. It would be extremely disappointing. Better gear doesn't make a better player.

eliisra · October 2014

There's staffs. There's mixes and variations of the 4-5 sets that gives cost reduction, magicka flood or spell crit/damage.

So why bother with this feature? Everyone uses the same gear sets in ESO anyway lol.

DDuke · October 2014

Once the gear progression (seasonal gear) is in, people will start thinking differently about this feature... you'll see people asking you to link your gear in chat, if there's no inspect function for it (people already ask for achievements).

Also, currently if you pug for dungeons/trials you are going to see poorly geared tanks (I've seen some with 1,7k health) and healers who can't keep you alive because they're still geared with VR1 greens & have no sets. This leads to people quitting groups mid-run after a wipefest and overall bad tensions between players.

That is why I personally don't think it'd be a bad idea to have an inspect feature.

Bramir · October 2014

RSram wrote: »

Like magicians, a successful PVP'er may no want to give up his configuration secrets.

1000 pts!

Knootewoot · October 2014

Based on my previous mmo raid and group experiences... NO

Emeliana · October 2014

In other games I've played that have this feature, nothing good has ever come out of it for the greater playersbase, just further segregation of players into "us and them".

Endless discussions in groups over players having subpar gear/build, often resulting in some being kicked from group although equipment never really tells how good or bad a player actually performs.

Players who advocate for this feature to become implemented mostly want speedruns through dungeons and raids etc. For them it has ceased being a game they play for fun and recreation. Instead it has become labour.

However, the time spent in the group-finder in order to find the right crew and to inspect players often exceeds the time it would take to start the action with just any group, take one or two wipes then a successful run.

Next up on the board is usually to ask for damage-meters to be parsed into a spreadsheet, accusing some players for not doing enough DPS and thus "wasting the groups time" and having to carry that/those players through. Not taking into consideration that a combat-tracker won't register that properly if the players are too far apart and/or if the server fails to register hits - which it will. ESO-server very often fail to sense your keystroke, so such feature would be highly unreliable.

Therefore - NO Thanks to inspect/recount features in this game.

pppontus · October 2014

It really just sounds like people here want to make it harder for raid leaders to exclude terrible players. Does it make a difference if they have to ask you to link gear or if they can check it anyway? End result is and will always be the same. Serious players will want to play with other serious players, decents with decents etc. but yes, I notice a lot of people seem to think they're entitled to be taken in to all the hard content and get carried to a win. You'll see soon enough when people outside raiding guilds start attempting Sanctum Ophidia..

eliisra wrote: »

There's staffs. There's mixes and variations of the 4-5 sets that gives cost reduction, magicka flood or spell crit/damage.

So why bother with this feature? Everyone uses the same gear sets in ESO anyway lol.

And there's Bow, DW, 2H which all produce good DPS if you have a good build and skill. Plus 1H/S for Tanks. But maybe I shouldn't tell people that there are others who perform well with all sorts of weapons. They might start realizing it's not really the weapon choice that's the problem.

MornaBaine · October 2014

NO. Just, no. IF they were to do this it would HAVE TO HAVE the option for you to disable it so other players could NOT "check you out." Blizzard did this with WoW and when people objected to it Blizz LITERALLY made fun of them in an April Fool's post on their official website. Then ended up handing out a half-arsed apology. But then they went and did it anyway. It wasn't the change itself that caused me to unsub from that game but it WAS the company response to people who PAY to play their game that drove that decision. I've never been sorry I ditched that game. Don't make the same mistake here ZoS.

DDuke · October 2014

Emeliana wrote: »

In other games I've played that have this feature, nothing good has ever come out of it for the greater playersbase, just further segregation of players into "us and them".

Funny, I have the complete opposite experience. Inspecting has been a good feature in MMOs, meaning I won't have to ask a random person what he's wearing if I see some kind of cool looking set, and by itself it doesn't "segregate" anyone. More on this below.

Emeliana wrote: »

Endless discussions in groups over players having subpar gear/build, often resulting in some being kicked from group although equipment never really tells how good or bad a player actually performs.

Is it better to waste hours wiping at some easy boss, because the bad geared "pro" DPS doesn't have enough DPS? I don't think so.

Someone with bad gear will never do enough DPS/Healing/Tanking to beat certain bosses in the game, no matter how "pro" he is, and this will get into a whole new level once gear progression is in.

Emeliana wrote: »

Players who advocate for this feature to become implemented mostly want speedruns through dungeons and raids etc. For them it has ceased being a game they play for fun and recreation. Instead it has become labour.

I don't think many people care about speedruns to be honest. Personally, I just don't think it's "fun" wiping at easy bosses & having to carry bad geared people.

You expect a certain level of competence from other players, and if they don't possess that certain level of competence, they should reach it before attempting content out of their league rather than being a burden to the group.

People find fun in different things, shockingly.

Emeliana wrote: »

However, the time spent in the group-finder in order to find the right crew and to inspect players often exceeds the time it would take to start the action with just any group, take one or two wipes then a successful run.

And this is where the fact that inspect feature doesn't really even affect anything comes in:

People already ask for achievements when it comes to Trials/VR Dungeon speedruns/hardmode achievements
People are sometimes asking for your DPS. True, you can lie & exaggerate since no one else will see it anyhow.
You can judge the tank's (and to a certain degree, the rest of the groups') gear by the amount of health he has. 1,8k? You're in for a bad time...
You can always create your own group, where no inspecting & achievements is required.

Also, as mentioned above, there are bosses which you simply can't get through if the "pro" DPS is wearing some green rags (e.g. Varlaniel in AA, Bloodspawn in VR Spindleclutch)

What happens when you don't have an inspect feature:

You fail to get through the dungeon, because of a DPS check or healer running OOM all the time, or some "pro" trying to tank in light armour & 1,8k health.
Group members get frustrated an quit mid-run
Arguments... "your DPS sucks, why didn't you tell me so!", "tank, why do you die in 2 hits?", "healer???"

This was roughly 80% of pug runs (100+) I've been in. I've been avoiding them like the plague because of that.

Emeliana wrote: »

Next up on the board is usually to ask for damage-meters to be parsed into a spreadsheet, accusing some players for not doing enough DPS and thus "wasting the groups time" and having to carry that/those players through. Not taking into consideration that a combat-tracker won't register that properly if the players are too far apart and/or if the server fails to register hits - which it will. ESO-server very often fail to sense your keystroke, so such feature would be highly unreliable.

Therefore - NO Thanks to inspect/recount features in this game.

"DPS meter not working", "server fails to register hits" sound more like someone coming up with excuses for his/her bad DPS who wants to be carried by the rest.

When group's DPS is low and you fail to kill a boss because of that, yet everyone claims to have enough DPS (and only they can see their own DPS), something is wrong.

And lastly, "elitism" is tied to human psychology, not some inspection feature

Gythral · October 2014

Just another method of ensuring no-one new gets to do parts of the content, most games where this is available raidleaders usually only want players that do not need to do the content any more and are already over geared by 2 or more tiers above the 'target' raid/trial/dungeon

ThisOnePosts · October 2014

As long as people have the ability to disable others from inspecting them, sure why not? I sure as heck don't want people inspecting my characters... my gear ratios and such are of my own design and I'd rather people ask me directly instead of sneakily "inspecting".. so I'd have that feature ALWAYS turned off.

TehMagnus · October 2014

Gythral wrote: »

Just another method of ensuring no-one new gets to do parts of the content, most games where this is available raidleaders usually only want players that do not need to do the content any more and are already over geared by 2 or more tiers above the 'target' raid/trial/dungeon

This is puuuuure bull [snip]. People who don't have "required gear" always have the option to team together since they are more numerous that people with "good gear" (if there even is such a thing). So the "we can't clear content because we will be left out" is pure **. Just create your own group and play with others like you, if indeed gear doesn't make the player, you shouldn't have issues clearing content (then again, we all know that a good player knows what gear he needs to excel doesn't he? so your chances of clearing content are prolly very low when teaming with people who don't even have good gear?).

You should just be honest and say: "If there is inspect, we won't be able to get carried by good players", because in the end it's exactly what the main issue is.

At last, If we had access to other player's gear we could probably let them know that it sucks and advise them on better options which they can implement quite easily in this game, I mean most of the good armor can be crafted and only idiots won't understand that you've only begun raiding and you still don't have the Aether set. That being said, you will naturally not be among their first picks for a speed run, then again, why should you???

And once again, good players can spot a bad player in a group of 12 people without any difficulty. Gear inspections won't change a thing.

Gythral · October 2014

Sorry but it isnt BS - it's the norm in many MMOs that raid leaders only want those that can carry them!!!

AaronMB · October 2014

"LF2 for ____. Must pass inspection."
lol

Nox_Aeterna · October 2014

Mordria wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

For those of you that don't already know this:

The head game designer of ESO has stated that he really, really wants there to be an "overall character strength" indicator. This is pretty much the same thing as an "inspect" feature because it lets other people know just how strong you are in relation to everyone else in the group. So expect the devs to actually consider adding this and be ready for it.

Do you have a reference/link?

I really hope they don't do something like that. It would be extremely disappointing. Better gear doesn't make a better player.

While true , "Better gear doesn't make a better player" you can just change the words and it will be true:

Better gear makes a player better.

Doesnt matter how good or bad you are , the better your gear , the better you will perform. No contesting this.

Again , this tool didnt become popular because closed groups needed it desperately. It is because in PUGs there is no magic number to tell you how good or bad a player is , atleast not until you start to fight.

Problem is by the time you start to fight , time is already lost , sure you can kick the player , but you are still going to search for a new player , test him also , might need another kick ... time is lost here.

Now if you see a guy is full epic , well maybe he is indeed bad , but probably even if the player is bad the gear will be good enough to literally make up for it during the fights.

And that is the reason this is popular.

AlexDougherty · October 2014

magnusnet wrote: »

Gythral wrote: »

Just another method of ensuring no-one new gets to do parts of the content, most games where this is available raidleaders usually only want players that do not need to do the content any more and are already over geared by 2 or more tiers above the 'target' raid/trial/dungeon

This is puuuuure bs. People who don't have "required gear" always have the option to team together since they are more numerous that people with "good gear" (if there even is such a thing).

Actually People used to do that in SWTOR, they demanded people had the gear that was the reward for the missions, ie they didn't need it.

And as for whether the gear is that good, when they bring out seasonal gear it will be superior to what we can craft.

Now it is true that sometimes players blame a lack of skill on their gear, I don't, I just blame my lack of skill (I'm not the best player, but I'm above average, just like everyone else).

DigitalHype · October 2014

A compromise might be to provide a slash-command or "one-click" option for a player to send their gear stats. Like someone has already pointed out, the elites can (do?) already request links for each piece of gear. They can then ostracize you, if results are not to their liking. So, not having /inspect is really just a speed-bump for the argument against the OP's request.

I doubt ZoS would ever give us this option, or add /inspect.

It's a subscription based service. For ZoS, your time is their money. Development considerations apply.

Any increase in time you spend to achieve some desired result, translates to a percentage of subscription time. The longer it takes to "do something", the longer you are potentially subscribed. The key for ZoS is to balance enjoyment/frustration level against that time sink.

Time is spent to ask for gear links or info, and possibly explain to the other person how to link their gear, and them linking each piece of gear.

I'm guessing there is a correlation between players more likely to get aggravated with gimped UI (e.g. inventory/bank management), and those more apt to find/install add-ons to improve it. Add-on's help adjust the balance for players, where ZoS needs it most.

Perhaps an add-on could help here? It could provide a one-click, "link all gear" to <playername>. But that would still require the other player to click on the pieces.

DDuke · October 2014

AaronMB wrote: »

"LF2 for ____. Must pass inspection."
lol

"LF2M DPS, 1k+DPS only, link achievements"

Sorry, but there already is an inspection in many cases.

I think it boils down to that people want to be able to choose who they play with.

What if this "elitist" group doesn't want to play with someone who would only slow them down/make content unplayable & frustrating? What if it'd be more fun for them to play with someone more competent?

And why would the more casual people want to play with these "elitist jerks", who'd otherwise just end up kicking him/her from group or disbanding after a couple of wipes caused by too low DPS/bad tank or healer?

There are way more people who don't care about gear/competence, it shouldn't be a problem to find group, even if you don't have top notch gear (which you can currently get in 5 minutes in this game...).

If you want to blame something, blame the human mind & how it works, not an artificial function that'd improve the quality of the game.

Nestor · October 2014

If your concerned about the gear that someone has before you group with them, then ask them. If it's not up to your standards then don't group with them. Otherwise, find someone else to group with if they won't answer you.

No need for this inspection feature as it will *** off most of the player base just so small minority can discriminate.

Cuyler · October 2014

Nestor wrote: »

If your concerned about the gear that someone has before you group with them, then ask them. If it's not up to your standards then don't group with them. Otherwise, find someone else to group with if they won't answer you.

No need for this inspection feature as it will *** off most of the player base just so small minority can discriminate.

This^.

How about have a conversation with someone instead and not have a computer program do it for you?

Maverick827 · October 2014

Chufu wrote: »

Normally that sounds nice, but I know from other games that this would be used from other players or addons to find out if you are "adequate" for a dungeon or a trial.

I see things like:

A raidleader needs some guys for a trial. So he found one of them and tells him, that he have to come to the entrance of the trial.

He inspects the player and says:"OH NO MAN! You can't come with us to the trial, you have just green equipment and your weapon is so ***!"

Then the inspected person could answer: "But I have so much skill, I rock although I wear green armor!"

The raidleader says: "Sorry, come back later when you have legendary equipment."

That's not a situation I want to see in Tamriel.

We still should have fun and if we CAN inspecting players, we WOULD inspecting players. Because everyone would do that then.

So I am a little bit afraid of "inspecting other players".

Yeah, it's so much better letting one person selfishly drag 11 other people down anonymously.

Evergnar · October 2014

DDuke wrote: »

AaronMB wrote: »

"LF2 for ____. Must pass inspection."
lol

"LF2M DPS, 1k+DPS only, link achievements"

Sorry, but there already is an inspection in many cases.

I think it boils down to that people want to be able to choose who they play with.

What if this "elitist" group doesn't want to play with someone who would only slow them down/make content unplayable & frustrating? What if it'd be more fun for them to play with someone more competent?

And why would the more casual people want to play with these "elitist jerks", who'd otherwise just end up kicking him/her from group or disbanding after a couple of wipes caused by too low DPS/bad tank or healer?

There are way more people who don't care about gear/competence, it shouldn't be a problem to find group, even if you don't have top notch gear (which you can currently get in 5 minutes in this game...).

If you want to blame something, blame the human mind & how it works, not an artificial function that'd improve the quality of the game.

Well said. The best solution I think is just to give players the option to easily show their builds if they so choose to.

DDuke · October 2014

Cuyler wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

If your concerned about the gear that someone has before you group with them, then ask them. If it's not up to your standards then don't group with them. Otherwise, find someone else to group with if they won't answer you.

No need for this inspection feature as it will *** off most of the player base just so small minority can discriminate.

This^.

How about have a conversation with someone instead and not have a computer program do it for you?

By that analogy, maybe we should disable health bars while we're at it. After all, we can just ask people how much health they have, right?

Maybe we should hide gear graphics as well, just so.. you know... someone doesn't recognize the gear I wear and call me a noob!!

Yeah, I think it'd be better if we were just shown as black boxes walking around to other people, so they could ask what class/armour we were wearing.

Brilliant.

k9mouse · October 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

Chufu wrote: »

Normally that sounds nice, but I know from other games that this would be used from other players or addons to find out if you are "adequate" for a dungeon or a trial.

I see things like:

A raidleader needs some guys for a trial. So he found one of them and tells him, that he have to come to the entrance of the trial.

He inspects the player and says:"OH NO MAN! You can't come with us to the trial, you have just green equipment and your weapon is so ***!"

Then the inspected person could answer: "But I have so much skill, I rock although I wear green armor!"

The raidleader says: "Sorry, come back later when you have legendary equipment."

That's not a situation I want to see in Tamriel.

We still should have fun and if we CAN inspecting players, we WOULD inspecting players. Because everyone would do that then.

So I am a little bit afraid of "inspecting other players".

Yeah, it's so much better letting one person selfishly drag 11 other people down anonymously.

Well, a player can help another player instead of being lord and master of them. One never know what a book is about by inspecting (

) the cover of the book.

To many times, people are just looking for a way to kick another person from a group instead of helping that person to improve their game. The inspecting UI tool just leads to "I am better then you are and I do not care about another player and I will kick you" so it best to leave it out and help to min or add to the abuse of "jerks." Jerks do so much finger pointing, instead letting others have fun. A challenge and wiping out a few times can be a learning process and when a group finally beat that boss, the rewards are greater because one earn it.

If one a player does not want to play with others in a given group, kindly excuse oneself and find a group more to one's liking. The group might do better with out such a person.

DDuke · October 2014

k9mouse wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Chufu wrote: »

Normally that sounds nice, but I know from other games that this would be used from other players or addons to find out if you are "adequate" for a dungeon or a trial.

I see things like:

A raidleader needs some guys for a trial. So he found one of them and tells him, that he have to come to the entrance of the trial.

He inspects the player and says:"OH NO MAN! You can't come with us to the trial, you have just green equipment and your weapon is so ***!"

Then the inspected person could answer: "But I have so much skill, I rock although I wear green armor!"

The raidleader says: "Sorry, come back later when you have legendary equipment."

That's not a situation I want to see in Tamriel.

We still should have fun and if we CAN inspecting players, we WOULD inspecting players. Because everyone would do that then.

So I am a little bit afraid of "inspecting other players".

Yeah, it's so much better letting one person selfishly drag 11 other people down anonymously.

Well, a player can help another player instead of being lord and master of them. One never know what a book is about by inspecting ( ) the cover of the book.

To many times, people are just looking for a way to kick another person from a group instead of helping that person to improve their game. The inspecting UI tool just leads to "I am better then you are and I do not care about another player and I will kick you" so it best to leave it out and help to min or add to the abuse of "jerks." Jerks do so much finger pointing, instead letting others have fun. A challenge and wiping out a few times can be a learning process and when a group finally beat that boss, the rewards are greater because one earn it.

If one a player does not want to play with others in a given group, kindly excuse oneself and find a group more to one's liking. The group might do better with out such a person.

Well, why do you want to play with that kind of people in the first place? I'm quite sure they don't want to play with you, if you're one of the people who'd wipe their raid/group with inferior DPS/tanking/healing. This kind of people usually end up kicking you from group (or disbanding) anyhow after a couple of wipes, leading to a more frustrating experience for both.

Maybe it'd be best if we played with like-minded people, people we all actually enjoy playing with

Of the names I have in my ignore list, well over half come from pug dungeons, and the second half is gold sellers.

Emeliana · October 2014

DDuke wrote: »

Emeliana wrote: »

In other games I've played that have this feature, nothing good has ever come out of it for the greater playersbase, just further segregation of players into "us and them".

Funny, I have the complete opposite experience. Inspecting has been a good feature in MMOs, meaning I won't have to ask a random person what he's wearing if I see some kind of cool looking set, and by itself it doesn't "segregate" anyone. More on this below.

Emeliana wrote: »

Endless discussions in groups over players having subpar gear/build, often resulting in some being kicked from group although equipment never really tells how good or bad a player actually performs.

Is it better to waste hours wiping at some easy boss, because the bad geared "pro" DPS doesn't have enough DPS? I don't think so.

Someone with bad gear will never do enough DPS/Healing/Tanking to beat certain bosses in the game, no matter how "pro" he is, and this will get into a whole new level once gear progression is in.

Emeliana wrote: »

Players who advocate for this feature to become implemented mostly want speedruns through dungeons and raids etc. For them it has ceased being a game they play for fun and recreation. Instead it has become labour.

I don't think many people care about speedruns to be honest. Personally, I just don't think it's "fun" wiping at easy bosses & having to carry bad geared people.

You expect a certain level of competence from other players, and if they don't possess that certain level of competence, they should reach it before attempting content out of their league rather than being a burden to the group.

People find fun in different things, shockingly.

Emeliana wrote: »

However, the time spent in the group-finder in order to find the right crew and to inspect players often exceeds the time it would take to start the action with just any group, take one or two wipes then a successful run.

And this is where the fact that inspect feature doesn't really even affect anything comes in:
People already ask for achievements when it comes to Trials/VR Dungeon speedruns/hardmode achievements

People are sometimes asking for your DPS. True, you can lie & exaggerate since no one else will see it anyhow.

You can judge the tank's (and to a certain degree, the rest of the groups') gear by the amount of health he has. 1,8k? You're in for a bad time...

You can always create your own group, where no inspecting & achievements is required.

Also, as mentioned above, there are bosses which you simply can't get through if the "pro" DPS is wearing some green rags (e.g. Varlaniel in AA, Bloodspawn in VR Spindleclutch)

What happens when you don't have an inspect feature:
You fail to get through the dungeon, because of a DPS check or healer running OOM all the time, or some "pro" trying to tank in light armour & 1,8k health.

Group members get frustrated an quit mid-run

Arguments... "your DPS sucks, why didn't you tell me so!", "tank, why do you die in 2 hits?", "healer???"

This was roughly 80% of pug runs (100+) I've been in. I've been avoiding them like the plague because of that.

Emeliana wrote: »

Next up on the board is usually to ask for damage-meters to be parsed into a spreadsheet, accusing some players for not doing enough DPS and thus "wasting the groups time" and having to carry that/those players through. Not taking into consideration that a combat-tracker won't register that properly if the players are too far apart and/or if the server fails to register hits - which it will. ESO-server very often fail to sense your keystroke, so such feature would be highly unreliable.

Therefore - NO Thanks to inspect/recount features in this game.

"DPS meter not working", "server fails to register hits" sound more like someone coming up with excuses for his/her bad DPS who wants to be carried by the rest.

When group's DPS is low and you fail to kill a boss because of that, yet everyone claims to have enough DPS (and only they can see their own DPS), something is wrong.

And lastly, "elitism" is tied to human psychology, not some inspection feature

LOL - wasting your energy disecting primarily mine and others posts in such details, trying to convince us we're wrong - but sorry - I won't change my mind about it. For me games are for fun, they're not labour or careers...

TehMagnus · October 2014

Emeliana wrote: »

LOL - wasting your energy disecting primarily mine and others posts in such details, trying to convince us we're wrong - but sorry - I won't change my mind about it. For me games are for fun, they're not labour or careers...

In that case, we who take games seriously don't want to play with you, and we need a way to root you out quickly, why not allow inspect? you clearly shouldn't be playing with us anyways and should team up and fail with people who think like you. Then you'll see awesome stamina nightblades using Whirlwing to single target DPS a raid boss and enjoy your fun game as you wipe.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · October 2014

No no no and no. Elitism is bad mmk. This game encourages experimenting and inspecting gear would restrict players to community expectations. Its bad enough that non templars aren't allowed to heal and stam builds are frowned upon.

Ninnghizhidda · October 2014

If you ask me, a very loud NO, absolutely NO, as far as I am concerned. And why so, you might ask?

Quite simply, because everything in ESO is already horribly biased and imbalanced, we already have totally "gimped" builds and roles, there is already enough elitism and already enough stupidity with "dps meters" and awesome stuff along the lines "mine is 1 cm longer, 2 grams heavier, I do 0.056785% more".

Should we really supply the morons with even more tools? I think not.

It is already bad in other MMOs where this "feature" exists and leads to moronic behaviour, even when the balance there is much better and class roles finely tuned and well defined. In ESO it would be the final nail in the coffin.

So, pretty please, NO, we really do not need one more source of "grief", thank you.

TehMagnus · October 2014

It's amazing how people keep QQing and giving *** excuses but none has an answer to the following things that have been said over and over again:

- Why would you want to play with those "Elitist Jerks"? They don't want to play with you anyways

.
- Why do you care since obviously a majority thinks like you and you can group with them and leave "elitits" alone? Shouldn't be harder to find a group than it is now.

We all know that all you guys say is just excuses you don't even believe, because you want to continue getting carried and crashing groups of "Elitist Jerks" that you clearly despise but strangely want to play with badly.