I don't like solo instances forced to scale up (from Update 5 PTS notes)

firstdecan · October 2014

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

firstdecan wrote: »

What 'solo instances' are affected by this scaling? I was on the PTS and couldn't find one.

You have likely done them all and I don't think any are repeatable. Main Story quests, Fighters/Mages Guild Quests, some (but not all) of the zone storyline quests that get checked off as you advance Cadwell's Silver/Gold. I can't think of any other forced solo content.

I'll have to check that with a toon that hasn't done those quests yet,

firstdecan · October 2014

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

I think they have probably introduced the scaling because when the DB and Thieves Guild questlines come in they want players of all levels to be able to play them. They did also mention a while back they were also going to be introducing a mechanism on boss fights where if you are pummled again and again it will adjust the fight to make it a bit easier to complete. If those two things come together then I am ok with this. Without the boss scaling business this would be a pain in the pauldrons for me as a squishy, bow using NB.

I think I "get" the scaling for the group dungeons, but not for the solo content. Combined with the Undaunted quests, the dungeon scaling turns each group dungeon into a "mini-trial" with repeatable content that provides a reasonable quest reward. The dungeons themselves only provide loot scaled to the mobs (VR12 max), but you get a reward scaled to your character for turning in the Undaunted quest (up to max level \ VR14). Having the max level reward dependent on turning in a quest keeps the farming down, although I don't know what the effect will be once the champion system is fully implemented and vet levels go away (Zeni may not know either, they're probably still working out all the ramifications of the changes they're making).

I haven't tested the solo scaling yet, but assuming it is scaling to the player level I agree that it isn't desirable. The Solo instances are not repeatable content, and if a player can't handle the content at a given level they should have the option to level up a bit and go back it. There's a loading screen tip that states the same thing. This may not be so bad if they introduce the "easier boss mechanic" described in the quote, but that mechanic is unneeded if they simply don't scale the solo instances.

I would like to see scaled solo content, maybe where public solo dungeons have a handful of public instances to accommodate varying player levels (cutoffs at levels 8/15/24/32/40/46/50/VR3/VR6/VR9/VR12/VR14). Sometimes it's hard to find a group or you're just not in the mood to deal with PUGs, and the solo content would give you a way to spend your time without needing others (this is good for players who only have an hour or less of play time at a time and don't want to spend it LFG). This would provide repeatable solo content, which is really lacking from the game. The intention of the repeatable solo content should simply be to have an alternative to the larger trials \ dungeon delves for those who don't have as much time to search for groups.

Welka · October 2014

Sorry guys but we mustn't be playing the same game. ESO is my first MMO and its my first PC game. I face rolled all solo content with my DK stamina DW and bow, with broken armor and using hardly any potion. I have a reroll sorcerer, same scenario. Broken armor, no buff, no potion, no soul gem and fighting with a resto staff. Walk in a park, even at vet level. Just started a NB that's level 20 in DC. Same story again. Face rolling quests above my level. It's just boring.

Now the forum is becoming a joke between people complaining about forced group content AND forced solo content...

Sorry guys but scaling IS a good thing

æxæ · October 2014

I see, 19 people got your point HolyCannoli, 13 didn't, while the majority of
people who commented on your thread got it and the vast minority is still discussing "elite" and "casual" without getting it's solely about the forced part in single delves. Man, sure as hell wouldn't enjoy being a dev on this game when reading some of these comments, even if it came with a 6 digit salary.
Good luck solving the game's issues though.

SantieClaws · October 2014

I don't know how they will deal with introducing the DB and TG questlines - or other new significant questlines - without them being scaled in some way. Otherwise a significant proportion of the existing playerbase is going to be ticked off that they have either outlevelled them or need to level a lot more to get to them.

This is going to be an issue whenever they introduce new content that isn't tied to a specific area.

Syntse · October 2014

Welka wrote: »

Sorry guys but we mustn't be playing the same game. ESO is my first MMO and its my first PC game. I face rolled all solo content with my DK stamina DW and bow, with broken armor and using hardly any potion. I have a reroll sorcerer, same scenario. Broken armor, no buff, no potion, no soul gem and fighting with a resto staff. Walk in a park, even at vet level. Just started a NB that's level 20 in DC. Same story again. Face rolling quests above my level. It's just boring.

Now the forum is becoming a joke between people complaining about forced group content AND forced solo content...

Sorry guys but scaling IS a good thing

Well would not help you or make your game any difficult still. If you already faceroll content above your level, how it will make it more challenging for you if it scales to your level? Unless they make it option and add some difficulty factor there so you can choose to have the scaled content +5 levels, though this would also mean drops.

Ohioastro · October 2014

At some level this just ends up being something that people don't agree on. I treat games like this as a combination of story and puzzles. If the puzzles are too easy - e.g. I can apply basic tactics and defeat them the first time I encounter them, every time, without danger - then I find the game *boring*. It's the equivalent of doing crossword puzzles designed for children.

A change like this is a positive one for people like me, because it means that I can go back to something that I missed - and actually have it not be a boring clickfest. Many others simply want a game that they can just click through, doing whatever, because they just want to relax after work. I'll simply note that there are many, many, many other games designed like this; and that there are many routes in this game, and almost no truly "required" quests.

Also, quitting before you even see what a change does is not a mature thing to do.

Ohioastro · October 2014

I'd note that, from above, it sounds very likely that this is a change designed for the Thieves Guild etc. quest lines - which will presumably be in parallel to the leveling scheme for new players. For people who've already leveled their characters, however, this would be utterly boring - and level scaling would let people at cap go back and enjoy the new quest lines. This is a classic example of a reason *for* a design change, where it opens things up for people that are positive.

Holycannoli · October 2014

Ohioastro wrote: »

At some level this just ends up being something that people don't agree on. I treat games like this as a combination of story and puzzles. If the puzzles are too easy - e.g. I can apply basic tactics and defeat them the first time I encounter them, every time, without danger - then I find the game *boring*. It's the equivalent of doing crossword puzzles designed for children.

A change like this is a positive one for people like me, because it means that I can go back to something that I missed - and actually have it not be a boring clickfest. Many others simply want a game that they can just click through, doing whatever, because they just want to relax after work. I'll simply note that there are many, many, many other games designed like this; and that there are many routes in this game, and almost no truly "required" quests.

Also, quitting before you even see what a change does is not a mature thing to do.

and for people like me who haven't completed everything (my highest level is only 34; very limited time to play) it's a negative one, if it's forced.

The whole point of my OP is to stress that this should be optional. Forcing it will further alienate casual, solo players like myself, and they simply cannot afford to alienate anyone.

TES is hardly a hardcore franchise. ESO is hardly a hardcore MMO. It's about as casual a MMO as I've seen, which is good because if it was more hardcore or required grouping even at lower levels I wouldn't be playing it. No time or patience for that crap.

I want to just relax after work, log on, play a bit, have some fun, do my thing at my pace, and purposely outlevel the solo quests so I can get through them easier. Not that my sorcerer can't get through them at equal level but I like outleveling it. It's probably a holdover from my soloing EQ and DAOC days where you'd be nuts to solo equal level content without a specialized character like a kiter.

Origin · October 2014

Scaling up the content to the player level it is a great idea.

It would be also interesting to consider dynamically scaling of the public content to the number of players that are participating to that event / dungeon / content at one moment.

For ex. by increasing the rate and number of spawning at the dolmens / dungeons or the difficulty of the spawned NPC based on the number and level of the players.

It is really annoying to enter a dungeon just to have everything killed by the player that is just ahead of you or to have a dungeon boss fight last 2 sec.

starkerealm · October 2014

Ohioastro wrote: »

At some level this just ends up being something that people don't agree on. I treat games like this as a combination of story and puzzles. If the puzzles are too easy - e.g. I can apply basic tactics and defeat them the first time I encounter them, every time, without danger - then I find the game *boring*. It's the equivalent of doing crossword puzzles designed for children.

A change like this is a positive one for people like me, because it means that I can go back to something that I missed - and actually have it not be a boring clickfest. Many others simply want a game that they can just click through, doing whatever, because they just want to relax after work. I'll simply note that there are many, many, many other games designed like this; and that there are many routes in this game, and almost no truly "required" quests.

Also, quitting before you even see what a change does is not a mature thing to do.

The problem is that, for some players, this will end their game. We've been told the main storyline quests will now scale with the player, if that's true it represents a roadblock for any sub optimal build or for players with physical disabilities.

If you can't clear Halls of Torment because it's too active, right now, you can level past it and return to curbstomp it at 40. I know that's what I ended up having to do because I was on a Nightblade without any good AoE options.

When I original posted to complain about this, the advice... honestly, the advice I got was to use Negate Magic on the boss.

So, that wasn't an option.

Now, failing to clear it at level will result in the bosses actually getting tougher, and it's not the only roadblock.

I've seen complaints for players on the level 20, 40, and 50 main quests. While not much can be done about the post-Cold Harbour quest, the rest of these, currently, allow you to simply level past them, and then return when you're strong enough to deal with the content. If that is being removed, people like the poster who was in this thread earlier, talking about their limited keyboard mobility, are basically told, "nope, you're done with the game."

Also, remember, if you're in to PvE content, and want to actually see vet levels, the main quest is completely non-optional. It's the one gauntlet everyone needs to run if they want to actually play the game after cold harbour. If your game does end at cold harbour, for a lot of players that final boss is more of a, "huh? That was it?" experience, rather than, "oh, cool, now I can go do more stuff."

This is on top of the reports that the Vet 12 scaling is pushing way too far over into the instant death murder range. Obviously, I haven't checked that personally, but it suggests a realistic problem with scaled content:

When you hand place content for a specific level, you, as the designer, have full control of how the experience will play out. When you set everything to scale, you're abdicating that control to an algorithm, and hoping it gets it right.

Now, it's probably not fair to say, "screw this I'm out," right now. But, for people who are seeing where the wind is blowing, it is reasonable, and mature, for them to say, "if this ends the game for me, I'm done." Especially given that the alternative is to guarantee that players get screwed over because there's no dissenting opinion presented.

Origin · October 2014

Holycannoli wrote: »

I want to just relax after work, log on, play a bit, have some fun, do my thing at my pace, and purposely outlevel the solo quests so I can get through them easier.

Maybe you should try Toki Tori instead.

starkerealm · October 2014

Origin wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

I want to just relax after work, log on, play a bit, have some fun, do my thing at my pace, and purposely outlevel the solo quests so I can get through them easier.

Maybe you should try Toki Tori instead.

With respect, you're saying that players that don't like making cookie cutter builds or have issues like arthritis or even just minor RSI shouldn't play the game at all.

Hell, even players who's ISP randomly decided to mess with them are affected.

"'Play how you want,' but only if it's the same as how I want."

I get that's probably not your intent, but it comes across as condescending and self-centered.

Tabbycat · October 2014

As long as they do not force me to down level to match an area I'm in, I am fine with dungeons and delves and similar such instances scaling to my level.

Consider with scaling you should get:

1. Better loot that matches your level.
2. A challenge regardless what level you are when you enter. So if you forgot to do that delve two zones back, you can go back and do it and still have it be fun and challenging.

I believe they also said if you are struggling to make it through a solo instance, the game will adjust the difficulty to help you out. So it scales but it's supposed to be smart about it.

Ohioastro · October 2014

I understand that making solo instances more difficult can drive people away from the game. Not being able to do a new quest line, like the Thieves Guild, with an established character would also drive people away from the game. So would not being able to do it with a new character. So does having the game be too easy - I couldn't stand playing LOTRO because it was too boring. And, as someone who's played since launch and whose highest level toon is VR5, I'd count as casual by a lot of metrics too.

I do think that it would be really, really handy to have the game recognize when someone is having difficulty with an encounter, and I think that this is a better solution than static levels. (e.g. a fellow shows up to assist you in a solo instance, or offers to help you in it, once you have accumulated a threshold tally of defeats.) I'm in my 50s, and active combat like ESO is tougher on the reflexes than traditional MMOs are.

To be truthful, this is not a game where a couple of levels one way or another actually makes the difficulty radically different. The truly difficult encounters for me are specific sorts of opponents (e.g. storm atronachs, trolls, or harvesters) which require very specific tactics to beat, and which are much more difficult than others at the same level. For better or worse, you probably just have to learn the rock paper scissors aspects of these sorts of encounters, and this will help much more than over-leveling.

smacx250 · October 2014

I don't understand why people think it is an unreasonable request to have an option - either scale to player level, or stay at base level. Given the new features being introduced, this is a logical extension of the existing option to either play your home faction group dungeons at base level or vet level.

GnatB · October 2014

Assuming they really can't make it optional (*cough* DB/Thieves guild/etc.)

1. It slowly "descales" each time you attempt it. Problem with this is it's unintuitive. This is an RPG, as such I'd expect if I can't defeat it now then the correct response is to become more powerful so I can come back and defeat it later.
2. The level of the instance is *locked in* when you first attempt it. While this won't help people that first attempt something at the cap, it would help most players. If they try something and fail, they can, in fact, do something else until they are higher level then try again. The level will have already been "locked in" for that player.

Ysne58 · October 2014

I'm starting a new character on the pts and will see how this tests out. I suspect that because of my disabilities, I will have real problems, as usual.

starkerealm · October 2014

GnatB wrote: »

Assuming they really can't make it optional (*cough* DB/Thieves guild/etc.)

1. It slowly "descales" each time you attempt it. Problem with this is it's unintuitive. This is an RPG, as such I'd expect if I can't defeat it now then the correct response is to become more powerful so I can come back and defeat it later.
2. The level of the instance is *locked in* when you first attempt it. While this won't help people that first attempt something at the cap, it would help most players. If they try something and fail, they can, in fact, do something else until they are higher level then try again. The level will have already been "locked in" for that player.

The smart approach would be to apply an "elastic" scaling. Where the further off the target level, the less it scales.

So if it's aimed at 20, and you're 24, you get a level 24 instance. If it's level 20 and you're 26-30, the instance trails behind by a level or two, 31-35, and it really starts to lag behind. So that when you're 50, it's hard capped itself at 40 or 45.

EDIT: Actually...

It might make more sense to do this as a difficulty slider system that only applies in instances. Where you pick how far off of your level up or down, the instance is. So for those who are complaining about how all the solo content is too easy, sure, let them crank everything in there up by 11 levels. For people who have issues, let them turn it down by 2 or 3 or 5 levels, so they can actually handle the content.

Elvent · October 2014

Ohioastro wrote: »

I do think that it would be really, really handy to have the game recognize when someone is having difficulty with an encounter

When I read this, it made me think of WoW's LFR system. If the entire raid wipes, you get a buff that adds 5% or 10%? to stats. It will stack after every wipe. ESO could do something similar for those that have trouble with these forced solo dungeons.

It's ridiculous we aren't allowed to bring a friend or ask for help with our quests because it's all forced solo content. I'm not really sure why forced solo content exists in an MMO like ESO, I'll never agree with it, it should be optional.

The people that are hardcore and love a challenge and love dying 100 times can go do it solo, the people that play for fun, want to relax, chat with people, take their time and just finish their story quests without the stress can do it with a friend or bring in help if they are having troubles.

Keep forced solo content in single player games where it belongs...makes no sense in an MMO.

Especially with these new changes to level scaling to solo dungeons now as if they weren't challenging enough, I used to wait a level or two and then come back and finish it. But now we're not going to have this option? So I guess I will just have to skip forced solo content then.

Elsonso · October 2014

One of the developers mentioned in an interview that the scaling would also have a mechanism to tell whether the solo player was in too deep and scale BACK the instance when it detected that it was too hard.

If this is true, and the instance is too hard, it may be a matter of a few deaths (take off your armor first) in order to trick the instance into thinking you are a pathetic excuse for a gamer.

Sapphy24 · October 2014

I don't like it that they scale, but who will take any notice of what we say anyway.
Whole thing is pointless.

Divinius · October 2014

Elvent wrote: »

It's ridiculous we aren't allowed to bring a friend or ask for help with our quests because it's all forced solo content. I'm not really sure why forced solo content exists in an MMO like ESO, I'll never agree with it, it should be optional.
...
Keep forced solo content in single player games where it belongs...makes no sense in an MMO.

This, 100%.

The really need to just remove the "forced solo" restriction on Guild and Main quests. Instead, they are making the situation even worse.

LonePirate · October 2014

starkerealm wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

Assuming they really can't make it optional (*cough* DB/Thieves guild/etc.)

1. It slowly "descales" each time you attempt it. Problem with this is it's unintuitive. This is an RPG, as such I'd expect if I can't defeat it now then the correct response is to become more powerful so I can come back and defeat it later.
2. The level of the instance is *locked in* when you first attempt it. While this won't help people that first attempt something at the cap, it would help most players. If they try something and fail, they can, in fact, do something else until they are higher level then try again. The level will have already been "locked in" for that player.

The smart approach would be to apply an "elastic" scaling. Where the further off the target level, the less it scales.

So if it's aimed at 20, and you're 24, you get a level 24 instance. If it's level 20 and you're 26-30, the instance trails behind by a level or two, 31-35, and it really starts to lag behind. So that when you're 50, it's hard capped itself at 40 or 45.

EDIT: Actually...

It might make more sense to do this as a difficulty slider system that only applies in instances. Where you pick how far off of your level up or down, the instance is. So for those who are complaining about how all the solo content is too easy, sure, let them crank everything in there up by 11 levels. For people who have issues, let them turn it down by 2 or 3 or 5 levels, so they can actually handle the content.

What you propose is interesting. Just remember that ZOS needed 6+ months in order to make doors work properly in Cyrodiil. Your request is far more complicated.

Divinius · October 2014

LonePirate wrote: »

What you propose is interesting. Just remember that ZOS needed 6+ months in order to make doors work properly in Cyrodiil. Your request is far more complicated.

Exactly... A simple "Scale to Level?" yes/no choice would be far easier to implement, and is all that's really needed.

starkerealm · October 2014

LonePirate wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

Assuming they really can't make it optional (*cough* DB/Thieves guild/etc.)

1. It slowly "descales" each time you attempt it. Problem with this is it's unintuitive. This is an RPG, as such I'd expect if I can't defeat it now then the correct response is to become more powerful so I can come back and defeat it later.
2. The level of the instance is *locked in* when you first attempt it. While this won't help people that first attempt something at the cap, it would help most players. If they try something and fail, they can, in fact, do something else until they are higher level then try again. The level will have already been "locked in" for that player.

The smart approach would be to apply an "elastic" scaling. Where the further off the target level, the less it scales.

So if it's aimed at 20, and you're 24, you get a level 24 instance. If it's level 20 and you're 26-30, the instance trails behind by a level or two, 31-35, and it really starts to lag behind. So that when you're 50, it's hard capped itself at 40 or 45.

EDIT: Actually...

It might make more sense to do this as a difficulty slider system that only applies in instances. Where you pick how far off of your level up or down, the instance is. So for those who are complaining about how all the solo content is too easy, sure, let them crank everything in there up by 11 levels. For people who have issues, let them turn it down by 2 or 3 or 5 levels, so they can actually handle the content.

What you propose is interesting. Just remember that ZOS needed 6+ months in order to make doors work properly in Cyrodiil. Your request is far more complicated.

Tragically, true.

Enodoc · October 2014

@Holycannoli Regarding the name "Solo dungeons". This is an error on the part of the add-on maker, who has accidentally seeded a major misconception; there is no such thing as a "solo dungeon". Their correct in-game name is Delves. (And, as said above, delves are not instanced, and this is about Solo Instances.)

Welka wrote: »

Sorry guys but we mustn't be playing the same game. ESO is my first MMO and its my first PC game. I face rolled all solo content with my DK stamina DW and bow, with broken armor and using hardly any potion. I have a reroll sorcerer, same scenario. Broken armor, no buff, no potion, no soul gem and fighting with a resto staff. Walk in a park, even at vet level. Just started a NB that's level 20 in DC. Same story again. Face rolling quests above my level. It's just boring.

Now the forum is becoming a joke between people complaining about forced group content AND forced solo content...

Sorry guys but scaling IS a good thing

@Welka‌ scaling is good, but the option of only having scaling if you want it is better.

Welka · October 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

@Holycannoli Regarding the name "Solo dungeons". This is an error on the part of the add-on maker, who has accidentally seeded a major misconception; there is no such thing as a "solo dungeon". Their correct in-game name is Delves. (And, as said above, delves are not instanced, and this is about Solo Instances.)

Welka wrote: »

Sorry guys but we mustn't be playing the same game. ESO is my first MMO and its my first PC game. I face rolled all solo content with my DK stamina DW and bow, with broken armor and using hardly any potion. I have a reroll sorcerer, same scenario. Broken armor, no buff, no potion, no soul gem and fighting with a resto staff. Walk in a park, even at vet level. Just started a NB that's level 20 in DC. Same story again. Face rolling quests above my level. It's just boring.

Now the forum is becoming a joke between people complaining about forced group content AND forced solo content...

Sorry guys but scaling IS a good thing

@Welka‌ scaling is good, but the option of only having scaling if you want it is better.

Yep, then the reward and XP must be optional too...
Honestly, the game is a walk in a park, even for the most casual of players. Like I said, I come from consoles and have to learn to play on keyboard and mouse, and even then it's dead easy. My first playthrough had some challenging moments but only because I was learning the game and it's my first MMO, but still a piece of cake! What do people expect? Run blind through the game, never die, never use a potion, never use a soul gem, never repair gear (it's already unnecessary at this point since you can beat Molag bal naked) and most importantly without thinking 1 minute what ability work best in certain circumstances? If they want to play like zombies, fine. Press W to go forward and 1 to spam ability...

Enodoc · October 2014

Welka wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@Holycannoli Regarding the name "Solo dungeons". This is an error on the part of the add-on maker, who has accidentally seeded a major misconception; there is no such thing as a "solo dungeon". Their correct in-game name is Delves. (And, as said above, delves are not instanced, and this is about Solo Instances.)

Welka wrote: »

Sorry guys but we mustn't be playing the same game. ESO is my first MMO and its my first PC game. I face rolled all solo content with my DK stamina DW and bow, with broken armor and using hardly any potion. I have a reroll sorcerer, same scenario. Broken armor, no buff, no potion, no soul gem and fighting with a resto staff. Walk in a park, even at vet level. Just started a NB that's level 20 in DC. Same story again. Face rolling quests above my level. It's just boring.

Now the forum is becoming a joke between people complaining about forced group content AND forced solo content...

Sorry guys but scaling IS a good thing

@Welka‌ scaling is good, but the option of only having scaling if you want it is better.

Yep, then the reward and XP must be optional too...

Absolutely. With scaling turned off, the reward would be as it is now; fixed at the level of the quest, and therefore relatively insignificant if you are playing a quest 10+ levels over. With scaling on, you'd get a meaningful reward.

Welka · October 2014

Enodoc wrote: »

Welka wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

@Holycannoli Regarding the name "Solo dungeons". This is an error on the part of the add-on maker, who has accidentally seeded a major misconception; there is no such thing as a "solo dungeon". Their correct in-game name is Delves. (And, as said above, delves are not instanced, and this is about Solo Instances.)

Welka wrote: »

Sorry guys but we mustn't be playing the same game. ESO is my first MMO and its my first PC game. I face rolled all solo content with my DK stamina DW and bow, with broken armor and using hardly any potion. I have a reroll sorcerer, same scenario. Broken armor, no buff, no potion, no soul gem and fighting with a resto staff. Walk in a park, even at vet level. Just started a NB that's level 20 in DC. Same story again. Face rolling quests above my level. It's just boring.

Now the forum is becoming a joke between people complaining about forced group content AND forced solo content...

Sorry guys but scaling IS a good thing

@Welka‌ scaling is good, but the option of only having scaling if you want it is better.

Yep, then the reward and XP must be optional too...

Absolutely. With scaling turned off, the reward would be as it is now; fixed at the level of the quest, and therefore relatively insignificant if you are playing a quest 10+ levels over. With scaling on, you'd get a meaningful reward.

Yeah but what's the point? It is already so laughingly easy. Is this what gaming has become? Select easy mode, run through it as fast as possible and move on... If you get stuck somewhere, it's obviously the game that's too hard and need nerfing...