I don't like solo instances forced to scale up (from Update 5 PTS notes)

starkerealm · October 2014

Audigy wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Solo instances will now scale to your level, with some caveats:
Solo instances do not scale below the level they are introduced. For example, Thizzrini Arena begins scaling from level 42.
Solo instances do not scale past Veteran Rank 12 at this time.
Solo scaling is determined by your level upon entering the instance, and remains there for the session.

ZO will only add this for solo content, so that if you want to solo a group dungeon like going back to Banished Cells then this Dungeon is still 12-15.

The change will only take place in Solo dungeons, dungeons that you visit while being on your main quest or the Mages & Fighters guild. And lets face it, those are already easy if you are one or two levels below the mobs, so that there wont be any significant change in difficulty.

No, it affects group content too. You should have looked at the patch notes.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dungeon Scaling
Dungeons will now scale to the level of the group leader, with some caveats:
Non-veteran dungeons will not scale below the level they are currently introduced, but will scale up to Veteran Rank 12.

All veteran dungeons (with the exception of Veteran City of Ash) are now available from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 12.

Dungeons will not scale up to Veteran Rank 13 and 14 at this time.

Dungeon scaling is determined by the group leader upon the group entering the dungeon. This scaling does not change if the level of the group leader does, or if the group leader changes, once the dungeon has been set.

Item drops will also scale up either to the level of the monster or the receiving player character, whichever is lower.
For example, a level 28 monster is defeated, dropping an item for a level 26 player character and a level 30 player character. The item levels will be 26 and 28, respectively.

If you are in a group of 1, you are the group leader. No going back to do Banished Cells by yourself at its original level, sorry.

Hmm, this doesn't sound pretty at all then.

Now I wonder, if I lets say decide at level 40 that I want to do these Banished Cells, how am I supposed to find a group? The finder will not let me queue for obvious reasons.

PUG it in zone. I know that's not always an appealing answer, but there are usually a few people around who just want to clear the dungeon without worrying about actually having a challenge. And, for some people just killing things and BSing is its own reward.

I think I read that the grouping tool was getting revised so you could actually queue for similarly leveled players running content at the same rough level, but I could be mistaken there.

Voodoo · October 2014

scaling is fantastic. and realistic. in what world can you go into a cave and one shot every thing in there because your some super being now? scaling makes sense.

liquid_wolf · October 2014

Is it forced scaling?

I see that scaling is coming... but is it forced, or an option? Nothing listed in the patch notes says one-way or another.

Everyone is afraid it is forced, but nothing actually says it is...

Cazic · October 2014

Pretty sure it is only instanced content that this will apply to. It shouldn't be much of a problem.

A "Solo dungeon" on the map is not instanced. It's labeled solo due to the difficulty - you can solo it, but it is not instanced and you can see other players.

The level scaling will apply to instanced solo content (main story or guild quests) as well as instanced group dungeons.

In instanced solo content, you'll be the only player there, so the content will match your level. This means you can't level up a bunch and go back to more easily complete a story/guild quest.

In instanced group dungeons, the content will scale to the group leader's level.

Sykotical · October 2014

Holycannoli wrote: »

... Plus no MMO I've ever played has used forced scaling. I actually can't think of one that does (can't even think of one that uses scaling at all). If they exist I haven't played them. They've all used the traditional system of level-appropriate areas, ...

I agree with @Holycannoli‌. This game really doesn't have to be like every other MMORPG just because it is an MMORPG. I've never played an MMORPG with level scaling. In fact, I had never played an RPG with content scaling until Oblivion, and I loved it!

I am always out-leveling the quests in a zone just by following the story. I just finished every quest in Glenumbra and I'm level 19, so I'm starting Stormhaven 3 levels above the content

I can't really enjoy the game when the bosses can't kill you just because you put dungeon diving (or sloshing) off for an hour to finish a quest line. I want to die, die again, and finally spot a *** in the armor or figure out a way to use the environment to my advantage.

I've actually been hoping they would scale all enemies such that a v10 and lvl 10 could do quests together doing nearly the same damage*, with the level difference signified by skill set rather than apparent god mode.

*as indicated visually as health bar depletion, so a v10 still hits for 9000 and a lvl 10 hits for 90, but they both shave 10% off the health bar. If you're worried about not being able to stroll through old content areas without being harassed by every red mob, they could just make enemies recognize your battle worn aura and turn yellow bellied when you outclass them by 10 levels.

starkerealm · October 2014

Holycannoli wrote: »

Plus no MMO I've ever played has used forced scaling. I actually can't think of one that does (can't even think of one that uses scaling at all). If they exist I haven't played them.

Star Trek Online is almost exclusively level scaled. Of course the game is also almost exclusively instanced, with a handful of open adventure zones at level cap.

Welka · October 2014

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Everyone is afraid it is forced, but nothing actually says it is...

Who's everyone? I'm not scared of it. I'm looking forward to it and I guess I won't be the only one in this case. Questing solo is so easy, so if you forget a quest with a solo instance and go back later to finish it, it's nice to have it being a challenge at your level and get a reward at your level.

starkerealm · October 2014

Welka wrote: »

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Everyone is afraid it is forced, but nothing actually says it is...

Who's everyone?

People who are afraid of change, losing the status quo, and big f---in' monsters.

Or, you know, people who have legitimate issues with certain types of bosses in content, and would like to be able to level past them and come back.

Ad.Absurdum · October 2014

"Non-veteran dungeons will not scale below the level they are currently introduced, but will scale up to Veteran Rank 12."

great... MAYBE there is a reason why i enter dungeons which i outleveled...? MAYBE i want it to be easy(er)...? if this is really forced, then it is a complete fail.

Welka · October 2014

Some bosses are challenging, yes. But the challenge is the game and that's what's fun. I soloed all 3 factions with a stamina based DW + bow, so it's not that hard.
i struggle to enjoy playing my sorcerer because everything is s face roll, even
Quests a few levels above mine. Not every one can find the game easy but c'mon, it's anything but hard. IMO scaling is good for challenge and replayability

starkerealm · October 2014

Welka wrote: »

Some bosses are challenging, yes. But the challenge is the game and that's what's fun. I soloed all 3 factions with a stamina based DW + bow, so it's not that hard.
i struggle to enjoy playing my sorcerer because everything is s face roll, even
Quests a few levels above mine. Not every one can find the game easy but c'mon, it's anything but hard. IMO scaling is good for challenge and replayability

Well... I've cleared a level 38 quest (I think) twice on level 16 characters, an Imperial Nightblade and an Imperial Sorc...

Actually, this makes me wonder if they'll drop the level for the two infection quests just to mess with the people who deliberately did them at low level.

Welka · October 2014

As far as I know, scaling will go up and not down. So I'd say no

clayandaudrey_ESO · October 2014

Wow. Reading comprehension is a lost art. If you want to faceroll this crap after the change just get you a low level player make them lead and enter the [snip] dungeon. Scale goes by group leader not the highest level player. "Omg I have to duo it instead of solo to get faceroll content fail fail fail"

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Cazic · October 2014

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

Wow. Reading comprehension is a lost art. If you want to faceroll this crap after the change just get you a low level player make them lead and enter the [snip] dungeon. Scale goes by group leader not the highest level player. "Omg I have to duo it instead of solo to get faceroll content fail fail fail"

Yeah.. people are heavily overreacting as usual

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

starkerealm · October 2014

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

Wow. Reading comprehension is a lost art. If you want to faceroll this crap after the change just get you a low level player make them lead and enter the freaking dungeon. Scale goes by group leader not the highest level player. "Omg I have to duo it instead of solo to get faceroll content fail fail fail"

I realize you probably just got here, but some content cannot be duoed.

Unknown_poster · October 2014

Some of you really need to get on PTS and try stuff out before you spew keyboard diarrhea everywhere. Just did two different dweomer dungeons...one solo...and one grouped with a friend also vr14...guess what...one the mobs were v6..where they were v6 before..the other v10...like they were before. Loot was v6 in the first..and v10 in the second.

starkerealm · October 2014

Unknown_poster wrote: »

Some of you really need to get on PTS and try stuff out before you spew keyboard diarrhea everywhere. Just did two different dweomer dungeons...one solo...and one grouped with a friend also vr14...guess what...one the mobs were v6..where they were v6 before..the other v10...like they were before. Loot was v6 in the first..and v10 in the second.

Delves, like the one in Stonefalls and The Rift right? Not Volenfell or City of Ash, or whatever, right?

Unknown_poster · October 2014

starkerealm wrote: »

Unknown_poster wrote: »

Some of you really need to get on PTS and try stuff out before you spew keyboard diarrhea everywhere. Just did two different dweomer dungeons...one solo...and one grouped with a friend also vr14...guess what...one the mobs were v6..where they were v6 before..the other v10...like they were before. Loot was v6 in the first..and v10 in the second.

Delves, like the one in Stonefalls and The Rift right? Not Volenfell or City of Ash, or whatever, right?

Yep...delves that anyone can enter...not grouped instances or solo instances.

clayandaudrey_ESO · October 2014

starkerealm wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

Wow. Reading comprehension is a lost art. If you want to faceroll this crap after the change just get you a low level player make them lead and enter the freaking dungeon. Scale goes by group leader not the highest level player. "Omg I have to duo it instead of solo to get faceroll content fail fail fail"

I realize you probably just got here, but some content cannot be duoed.

This was not in reference to the solo instances but the group dungeon comment.

MikeBob · October 2014

The idea of scaling solo dungeons actually appeals to me.

I'd like to be able to go back and re-do the solo dungeons I've out-leveled, but I don't like the idea of not receiving loot drops or experience for it (I've done all of them so far, it's just that I want to be able to go back and do them again). Also, I've noticed that I don't build/accrue ultimate from beating on 'grey' mobs, which currently makes re-doing low level stuff even more of a pointless bore.

With respect to the OP, I disagree.

starkerealm · October 2014

MikeBob wrote: »

The idea of scaling solo dungeons actually appeals to me.

I'd like to be able to go back and re-do the solo dungeons I've out-leveled, but I don't like the idea of not receiving loot drops or experience for it (I've done all of them so far, it's just that I want to be able to go back and do them again). Also, I've noticed that I don't build/accrue ultimate from beating on 'grey' mobs, which currently makes re-doing low level stuff even more of a pointless bore.

With respect to the OP, I disagree.

If there was an option? To actually switch delves to scale up with you and instance to just you and party members? That would be really cool. That said, part of the fun with delves can be the random encounters with other players.

Holycannoli · October 2014

Gorthax wrote: »

I'm sorry, tell me again how you want everything unlocked just for starting a character. This game IS alt friendly. The content isn't hard and a freaking breeze to get through. Is this your first mmo lol Cuz it sure sounds like it there bud.

In other MMOs your alts only have to worry about leveling. You've done the content so no need to do it all again, you just have to level. In ESO by not doing all the content you miss out on skill points.

I'm not much of a quester. Never have been. I'm more of a grinder and dungeon/pvp queue player. That might stem from my classic EQ days, where I'd find a good spot to kill mobs and grind that XP, and I never had to worry about those overly-complicated quests with little reward.

I'm doing the same exact quests all over again with a DK alt and it's just boring. I'd be having more fun if I was just grinding mobs or running dungeon or battleground queues (which ESO has none of) but I wouldn't get the skill points from the quests.

Son_Raizen wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

... Plus no MMO I've ever played has used forced scaling. I actually can't think of one that does (can't even think of one that uses scaling at all). If they exist I haven't played them. They've all used the traditional system of level-appropriate areas, ...

I agree with @Holycannoli‌. This game really doesn't have to be like every other MMORPG just because it is an MMORPG. I've never played an MMORPG with level scaling. In fact, I had never played an RPG with content scaling until Oblivion, and I loved it!

I am always out-leveling the quests in a zone just by following the story. I just finished every quest in Glenumbra and I'm level 19, so I'm starting Stormhaven 3 levels above the content

I can't really enjoy the game when the bosses can't kill you just because you put dungeon diving (or sloshing) off for an hour to finish a quest line. I want to die, die again, and finally spot a *** in the armor or figure out a way to use the environment to my advantage.

I've actually been hoping they would scale all enemies such that a v10 and lvl 10 could do quests together doing nearly the same damage*, with the level difference signified by skill set rather than apparent god mode.

No you actually disagree with me. I don't want any of that. I want the traditional system I've known for 30 years. If a dungeon contains level 25 mobs then I want to be able to go in at level 30 and have an easier time. If a zone has level 40 mobs I want to feel like it's really dangerous for me at level 35 but promises better loot after I've leveled a bit and return.

STO may use level scaling, I'm not really sure. I do play the game sometimes but I actually do very little of the content. I haven't done even half the episodes. I mostly do STFs and voth battlezone, and they don't scale. I do know STO gives you the option of difficulty levels though, which is what I want here. I don't mind scaling so long as it's optional. They haven't said if it is or isn't but they didn't make it seem like it was.

Right now I'm purposely waiting to do the next mage and fighters guild quests because I want to gain a few more levels. I've been doing them between 3 and 5 levels higher than the quest, so that I'm stronger and the quests are easier. That's how I play. I don't want my playstyle eliminated, but I wouldn't mind the option at all.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to display correct source]
[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

Audigy · October 2014

starkerealm wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Solo instances will now scale to your level, with some caveats:
Solo instances do not scale below the level they are introduced. For example, Thizzrini Arena begins scaling from level 42.
Solo instances do not scale past Veteran Rank 12 at this time.
Solo scaling is determined by your level upon entering the instance, and remains there for the session.

ZO will only add this for solo content, so that if you want to solo a group dungeon like going back to Banished Cells then this Dungeon is still 12-15.

The change will only take place in Solo dungeons, dungeons that you visit while being on your main quest or the Mages & Fighters guild. And lets face it, those are already easy if you are one or two levels below the mobs, so that there wont be any significant change in difficulty.

No, it affects group content too. You should have looked at the patch notes.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dungeon Scaling
Dungeons will now scale to the level of the group leader, with some caveats:
Non-veteran dungeons will not scale below the level they are currently introduced, but will scale up to Veteran Rank 12.

All veteran dungeons (with the exception of Veteran City of Ash) are now available from Veteran Rank 1 to Veteran Rank 12.

Dungeons will not scale up to Veteran Rank 13 and 14 at this time.

Dungeon scaling is determined by the group leader upon the group entering the dungeon. This scaling does not change if the level of the group leader does, or if the group leader changes, once the dungeon has been set.

Item drops will also scale up either to the level of the monster or the receiving player character, whichever is lower.
For example, a level 28 monster is defeated, dropping an item for a level 26 player character and a level 30 player character. The item levels will be 26 and 28, respectively.

If you are in a group of 1, you are the group leader. No going back to do Banished Cells by yourself at its original level, sorry.

Hmm, this doesn't sound pretty at all then.

Now I wonder, if I lets say decide at level 40 that I want to do these Banished Cells, how am I supposed to find a group? The finder will not let me queue for obvious reasons.

PUG it in zone. I know that's not always an appealing answer, but there are usually a few people around who just want to clear the dungeon without worrying about actually having a challenge. And, for some people just killing things and BSing is its own reward.

I think I read that the grouping tool was getting revised so you could actually queue for similarly leveled players running content at the same rough level, but I could be mistaken there.

Pugging with LFG chat can be a big nuisance, especially if you don't play every day as I do and if then usually just an hour.

It can take hours already to find 3 more people in LFG (without the issue that my level is not theirs) and I only do the dungeons in my territory during the level up phase to not spoil the story for my alts in other factions.

Once I saw all the stories going back to the missed dungeons, claiming the skill points and achievements was my plan and this would be incredible complicated with the change. I know it from other MMOs that content from the past is almost never done by trade groups and this as mentioned without the problematic "scaling issue that we will have now", so I am a bit worried to miss out on important skill points in future unless I spoil story elements for me which I wont do.

The new LFG wont list people who are 50, they only mentioned that it will be extended by two levels so from 12-15 --> 10-17.

eliisra · October 2014

I don't like forced scaling. There should always be an option to do the original version (like today's choosing between VR or normal).

It's already hard, almost impossible to find groups for normal dungeons. People only do them once for the achievement + skill point.

At least now you can solo the ones you missed or failed to find a group for. Gain some of levels and clear them comfortably by yourself, no need to cry LFM in zone chat for hours, no need to nag and beg the guild to help with something they dont need. It's nice and convenient, the way it works now. What happens when that option goes away with auto scaling?

starkerealm · October 2014

Holycannoli wrote: »

STO may use level scaling, I'm not really sure. I do play the game sometimes but I actually do very little of the content. I haven't done even half the episodes. I mostly do STFs and voth battlezone, and they don't scale. I do know STO gives you the option of difficulty levels though, which is what I want here. I don't mind scaling so long as it's optional. They haven't said if it is or isn't but they didn't make it seem like it was.

The queued content, and adventure zones don't scale. But you also can't access the adventure zones unless you're level 50. Everything else in the game scales. Even the random enemy fleet encounters that I have touched in 3+ years.

Go back and run any mission from your log, and you'll find all of the enemies are exactly at your level. Once in a great while, you'll run across a bugged encounter. There's some level 1 enemies in one of the Cardassian front missions, IIRC. But, otherwise, it doesn't matter if you're at level for it or 50, you'll see enemies that match your level.

The big exception, and this is a huge issue, is if you're in a team, enemies will be scaled to the team's average level. Meaning if you come in on a VA, and are trying to help a fleet member who's an LtCmdr 10, you'll end up with enemies that are level 30, weak enough you can one shot them, and strong enough that your fleet member will get splattered all over the walls just for saying, "hi."

zhevon · October 2014

eliisra wrote: »

It's already hard, almost impossible to find groups for normal dungeons. People only do them once for the achievement + skill point.

Yep ... gave up on the group dungeons about a month and half ago because of looking-for-group and things like randomly broken group chat and being rejected because they don't want NBs. I have only so much time to spend and trying to group sucks big time.

MikeBob · October 2014

starkerealm wrote: »

MikeBob wrote: »

The idea of scaling solo dungeons actually appeals to me.

I'd like to be able to go back and re-do the solo dungeons I've out-leveled, but I don't like the idea of not receiving loot drops or experience for it (I've done all of them so far, it's just that I want to be able to go back and do them again). Also, I've noticed that I don't build/accrue ultimate from beating on 'grey' mobs, which currently makes re-doing low level stuff even more of a pointless bore.

With respect to the OP, I disagree.

If there was an option? To actually switch delves to scale up with you and instance to just you and party members? That would be really cool. That said, part of the fun with delves can be the random encounters with other players.

I'm not at all opposed to making it optional.

liquid_wolf · October 2014

Unknown_poster wrote: »

Some of you really need to get on PTS and try stuff out before you spew keyboard diarrhea everywhere. Just did two different dweomer dungeons...one solo...and one grouped with a friend also vr14...guess what...one the mobs were v6..where they were v6 before..the other v10...like they were before. Loot was v6 in the first..and v10 in the second.

You need to just let me speculate, invent crazy ideas, and spread fear/chaos with every line I type.

It is human nature, and therefore takes priority over logic, common-sense, and even the desire to learn the truth.

Vegaroth · October 2014

This is annoying for casual players (solo-instanced dungeons are basically those related with quest progresion), before if u get struggle with a boss (like in the Mannimarco fight) u could leave it at side, go get few more level / skill points / skill levels) and come back knowing than would be more easy and dont become a wall, now u would not be able to do that cuz he will rise level / dificulty too....... and theres no way to ask for help cuz is instanced to only you....

Ohioastro · October 2014

People, people.

This is a way of making sure that the small number of solo instances - mostly for the main quest, guilds, and the related main quest lines in landscape - scale up to your level. Which, remember, means that you actually get loot and experience for doing them - making them substantially more rewarding.

*If* these were difficult, then overleveling would be a fruitful option. In practice, they've largely been sanded down to the point where I can't recall one that was truly tough; in fact, frequently the end encounter is easier than reaching it.

(Molag Bal was fun, but not hard, and may be the sole exception. I really, really hope that it stays how it is; it's my absolute favorite encounter that I had for the entire 1-50 questing game.)