You'll likely see multiple breaches in keeps become the norm, especially in the inner keep. It'll become vital to get that second lane of attack open.

Xallus wrote: »

I'm still not sure what this really fixes. Hiding in a corner with 24 impulse spammers, waiting for a group to land on a flag and its... harder to wipe the ones on the flag?

The problem is 24 people with impulse and immovable running a train through siege, not having to stop, not having to focus a target, running full speed and pulsing through a siege line, wiping everything.

This change will cost ZOS quite a bit of wages for nothing. Notice how skellies aren't in here whining? Its a BUFF to pulse spammers. They will hit everyone...the diminished returns aren't on all targets according to what was said, they diminish for each additional target AND... Oils will need a drop range, no defense to this play-style on flags. To compete, everyone doing objective based pvp will need a destro staff equipped at all times.

Not only does EP and DC have to deal with an overwhelming overpopulation of AD in Cyrodil, AD is also the only one with a dedicated pulse group that's about to get buffed to god status.

Please pipe up if anyone in the pulse spam group on AD is at all turned off by this.

How can you believe what you are saying?
Those impulse groups cannot exist without the target cap.

Their radius isn't magically increased with the removal of the target cap, they still have one of the lowest reach in game and will still hit just as many targets as before. Which is, unless they meet another "ball", 2 to 3 targets at a time while they are moving. If two of those groups meet each other they'll instantly wipe each other and, unless they like the randomness, will never do it again.

The strength of those groups doesn't come from impulse but from the damage immunity they gain through the target cap. Avoiding most incoming damage means they can get in range of impulse and use it as a low skill focus fire tool by just following the crown.
Have you ever had a lone impulse user try to jump into your group? How long did he last? Not long I bet. Well it's the same with a group trying to approach you, if you can hit all of them at once, they all die pretty quickly.

The removal of the aoe caps is a direct nerf to impulse, to the point where it may become completely obsolete.

Columba wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Xallus wrote: »

I'm still not sure what this really fixes. Hiding in a corner with 24 impulse spammers, waiting for a group to land on a flag and its... harder to wipe the ones on the flag?

The problem is 24 people with impulse and immovable running a train through siege, not having to stop, not having to focus a target, running full speed and pulsing through a siege line, wiping everything.

This change will cost ZOS quite a bit of wages for nothing. Notice how skellies aren't in here whining? Its a BUFF to pulse spammers. They will hit everyone...the diminished returns aren't on all targets according to what was said, they diminish for each additional target AND... Oils will need a drop range, no defense to this play-style on flags. To compete, everyone doing objective based pvp will need a destro staff equipped at all times.

Not only does EP and DC have to deal with an overwhelming overpopulation of AD in Cyrodil, AD is also the only one with a dedicated pulse group that's about to get buffed to god status.

Please pipe up if anyone in the pulse spam group on AD is at all turned off by this.

How can you believe what you are saying?
Those impulse groups cannot exist without the target cap.

Their radius isn't magically increased with the removal of the target cap, they still have one of the lowest reach in game and will still hit just as many targets as before. Which is, unless they meet another "ball", 2 to 3 targets at a time while they are moving. If two of those groups meet each other they'll instantly wipe each other and, unless they like the randomness, will never do it again.

The strength of those groups doesn't come from impulse but from the damage immunity they gain through the target cap. Avoiding most incoming damage means they can get in range of impulse and use it as a low skill focus fire tool by just following the crown.
Have you ever had a lone impulse user try to jump into your group? How long did he last? Not long I bet. Well it's the same with a group trying to approach you, if you can hit all of them at once, they all die pretty quickly.

The removal of the aoe caps is a direct nerf to impulse, to the point where it may become completely obsolete.

God, I hope you are correct.

You make the point thezergball damage is based around pbaoe at present and cite that literally have to run past targets to be in range.

Does the zergball have to use pbaoe and not aoe in general ? Is there not an alternative aoe they can use instead ?

Because if there is a way....those 2-3 targets you state at the moment become unlimited in the same way as those attacking the zergball. All you have done is made the zergball much more powerful at the same time as everyone else. Yes you can wipe them qicker....but they can also wipe you quicker.

Then there is the issue of all the extra calculations needed for the vastly instensified aoe that everyone can do hit many more targets. How is this going to make server lag better ? Lag that already crashes the systems.

Columba wrote: »

God, I hope you are correct.

The only games that I have played where these turtle groups are a problem is GW2 and ESO... and what do they have in common... target caps.

Once the caps go these groups will have to smarten up.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Xallus wrote: »

I'm still not sure what this really fixes. Hiding in a corner with 24 impulse spammers, waiting for a group to land on a flag and its... harder to wipe the ones on the flag?

The problem is 24 people with impulse and immovable running a train through siege, not having to stop, not having to focus a target, running full speed and pulsing through a siege line, wiping everything.

This change will cost ZOS quite a bit of wages for nothing. Notice how skellies aren't in here whining? Its a BUFF to pulse spammers. They will hit everyone...the diminished returns aren't on all targets according to what was said, they diminish for each additional target AND... Oils will need a drop range, no defense to this play-style on flags. To compete, everyone doing objective based pvp will need a destro staff equipped at all times.

Not only does EP and DC have to deal with an overwhelming overpopulation of AD in Cyrodil, AD is also the only one with a dedicated pulse group that's about to get buffed to god status.

Please pipe up if anyone in the pulse spam group on AD is at all turned off by this.

How can you believe what you are saying?
Those impulse groups cannot exist without the target cap.

Their radius isn't magically increased with the removal of the target cap, they still have one of the lowest reach in game and will still hit just as many targets as before. Which is, unless they meet another "ball", 2 to 3 targets at a time while they are moving. If two of those groups meet each other they'll instantly wipe each other and, unless they like the randomness, will never do it again.

The strength of those groups doesn't come from impulse but from the damage immunity they gain through the target cap. Avoiding most incoming damage means they can get in range of impulse and use it as a low skill focus fire tool by just following the crown.
Have you ever had a lone impulse user try to jump into your group? How long did he last? Not long I bet. Well it's the same with a group trying to approach you, if you can hit all of them at once, they all die pretty quickly.

The removal of the aoe caps is a direct nerf to impulse, to the point where it may become completely obsolete.

God, I hope you are correct.

You make the point thezergball damage is based around pbaoe at present and cite that literally have to run past targets to be in range.

Does the zergball have to use pbaoe and not aoe in general ? Is there not an alternative aoe they can use instead ?

You missed my point.
I mentionned pbaoes as an aside, saying why they used it, but that they were just a symptom, not a cause of the issue.

They use pbaoes because they are easier to use, not because they are better.
Impulse itself is an inferior spell compared to ranged aoes. Less reach, less damage, more mana. The only things it has going for itself is its radius (8m) and that it doesn't require to aim.

Even if there weren't any pbaoes in the game, the zerg balls would still exist as a defensive mesure, and they would not have a much harder time hitting each other with ranged aoes as they would be just hitting a ball.

Heck, even if there weren't any aoes in the game, stacking would still be viable due to the dificulty of focus firing single targets in the blur of people clipping into each other.

The only way to avoid these situations is to remove the target cap.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Because if there is a way....those 2-3 targets you state at the moment become unlimited in the same way as those attacking the zergball. All you have done is made the zergball much more powerful at the same time as everyone else. Yes you can wipe them qicker....but they can also wipe you quicker.

There is no such thing as unlimited.
There are still limited radius on aoes, actually much smaller than impulse as only lightning flood and ultimates are 6m radius ranged aoes.

If they are stacking, their entire group gets hit.
But if they are facing unstacked opponents, they barley hit 2 to 4 targets per attacks. And it woudl require actual coordination to have the same one shot effect they used to have "for free".

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Then there is the issue of all the extra calculations needed for the vastly instensified aoe that everyone can do hit many more targets. How is this going to make server lag better ? Lag that already crashes the systems.

I already answered you on this in another thread.
But in short, there isn't a "vastly intensified aoe" because there are less targets.

Currently, there are 6 guaranteed targets, because you are most certainly facing another stacking group, but against spread out groups, you don't have any guarantee to hit anything.
Either people dodge, or you fail at aiming.
And in the event neither happens, due to facing groups that are spread out, you will hit an average of 2 to 4 target with most ranged aoes.
That's what we've seen in game at launch, and even still today when larger forces of noobs collide.
It is also easy to estimate by min-maxing. Try calculating how many players you hit with a 6m radius area when facing 40 players spread out in a 20m radius area.

Aoes will be less important in "general" play and will become useful only in situations where there are chokepoints.

You need to understand that the meta game will change. Today, each aoe hits 24 targets because of stacking ,tomorrow it won't.
Today most of the game takes place on chokepoints because they are meaningless, tomorrow people will avoid that and approach captures differently.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Nijjion wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

God, I hope you are correct.

The only games that I have played where these turtle groups are a problem is GW2 and ESO... and what do they have in common... target caps.

Once the caps go these groups will have to smarten up.

Alternatively....a large % of GW2 population has moved to ESO and bought such tactics with them ?
I am sure I can pull a 100 reasons out of the air and GW2 does not have identical game mechanics and calculations as ESO does. The implications of cap removal are not completely known. The side effects may be abysmal.

The implications are known, as we've seen the game without caps.
Sure, they existed under the hood, but as people ignored all about it they behaved as if they didn't exist. So we know how they will behave when the caps get removed.

And aside from past experience, it is pretty easy to determine how players behave:
They always take the path of least resistance.
People have predicted that the game would devolve into what it is months ago.
If you make the path of least resistance to spread out, they will spread out.

For the rest, basic math can assure you that there wouldn't be many issues.
And if there are, it would be from individual abilities that need to be addressed on a case by case basis. Not with a carpet change.

Implementing the caps was reckless and I there is absolutely nothing of value that came out of it.

a very simple problem actually zenimax. you dont have to think of a very complex solution to this that will change lots of things that will become another cause of problems. my advice is, use the Moba games strategy for this spamming, same type of aoe skill wont affect a player that was just previously affected by it. so a player can not take 10 impulse damage from 10 different enemy players. if they use different kinds of aoes, then thats almost a thing next to smart gaming and group strategy or synergy or teamwork.. pve wont also be affected with this..
problem solved!

your thinking is same with those blobs, how to wipe out a group insanely fast. that is not what zenimax intend to. you simply cant complain of what theyre doing if you have same kind of thinking bro. like the saying says, robbers hate robbers!