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No damage in PVP (Slight wall text)

EatUrNumNumz
EatUrNumNumz
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This isn't some thread bashing on classes or saying Nightblades are underpowered or anything. (Though there could be some improvements/fixes) So here's my situation.

I being a V3 NB. DW/Bow. 5 piece Med armor Hundings rage (2 of which are my dual daggers), and 2 pieces Light armor, 4 piece Night Mothers Gaze (one of which is my bow). With my daggers I surpass the weapon dmg soft cap. I just recently respec'd my attributes from all hp to 39 into magicka and 10 into stam. Enchanted all my armor with HP to compensate. Also refined it all to PURPLE. All armor has divines trait and I'm using the Warrior stone. I'm at 56% weapon crit rate. 91/113 spell dmg with 19% spell crit(with daggers). Bow is 134/174 weap dmg and 43% weap crit and 15% spell crit.

Current- Softcap

Health- 1756/3031
Magicka- 2011/2324
Stamina- 1348/2324

Spell Resistance- 1707/1690
Armor- 1332/1690

Magicka Recovery- 74/132
Health Recovery- 15/91 (Vampire)
Stamina Recovery- 88/126

My thing is not only do I die sometimes incredibly easy, some cases even the rare 1v1, but I also don't feel like I'm doing hardly any damage. I don't feel I'm critting that hard or often. I jump from stealth to nuke someone and sometimes I hardly do anything to them. I also feel as though I run out of magicka too quickly. Though that could just be me spamming spells when I shouldn't be? Now I know I'm only V3 but I feel like I should be doing more all around. Especially with my gear. I'm sure others are doing better with equal or lesser gear.
Suggestions, comments, advice? Anything that'd help or enlighten, I'd appreciate it.

Sorry for the wall text. :/ Don't know how to attach a screenshot.
Edited by EatUrNumNumz on October 6, 2014 8:54PM
  • EatUrNumNumz
    EatUrNumNumz
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    Also on my DW bar in PVP currently, I'm using the following skills:

    Dark Cloak IV
    Concealed Weapon IV
    Swallow Soul IV
    Ambush IV
    Impale IV
    Soul Harvest IV

    Bow bar:
    Venom Arrow IV (sometimes swapping with Swallow Soul)
    Magnum Shot IV
    Mirage II
    Lethal Arrow I
    Impale IV
    Soul Tether IV


  • Aeratus
    Aeratus
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    You're not going to crit against anything good with a 57% crit rate. PVPers wear impenetrable armor which negates your. With impenetrable on all pieces, you can get up to 63% crit resist with all purple pieces, and up to 80% with all gold pieces including shield.

    Having a low damage is pretty normal if you're fighting against people who stack shield spells.

    If you're running out of magicka, turn on siphoning attacks. It drops your weapon/spell damage by 22%, which equates to only a 11% loss in overall damage.
  • Sav72
    Sav72
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    I will tell you why you don't do damage... Reflect, Absorb, Block........non stop in PvP
    Savoifair, EP NB

    If you break something, you can glue it back together and fix it, but, it will always be broken...

  • EatUrNumNumz
    EatUrNumNumz
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    But it's not just against people who stack shields or anything. It's on ALMOST everyone/anyone.
  • Tonnopesce
    Tonnopesce
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    From what i read you have sort of a hibrid carachter... if you have full weapon damage go full stamina with my bowplar i have 160wepon damage and 1970 stamina with 54 crit at level 45 and i hit pretty hard with weapon based skills but with magik is just meh so i use magic for survive....
    try this way
    Signature


  • Kartalin
    Kartalin
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    As I have recently discovered, having a build that works great in PVE doesn't necessarily mean anything in PVP.

    You have to look at what your opponents are doing...invulnerable traits on items, mostly light armor - meaning you should expect softcapped spell resistance - and you can bet their spell damages are softcapped as well. You also need to consider how they're attacking and defending, as stated above.
  • Aeratus
    Aeratus
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    The damage of your skill attacks is low. First, you only have 134 weapon damage, which is pretty low considering that there are people with over 220. Then, your stamina is 1.3k which is pretty low for bow damage.

    Of course, the other problem is that your character is only v3, which will make it much weaker than v14s. Honestly, v3 bow/dw NBs go down very easily in open combat in cyrodiil. At 1.7k HP, you can be taken down by a single snipe + venom arrow combo.

    The size of your stamina pool affects stamina skill damage, but your build is too spread out between magicka and stamina. So if you want your bow to do more damage, you need to stack into stamina. At the moment, neither your bow, nor your magicka skills (swallow soul) can match the damage output of v14s.

    A hybrid magicka/stamina build is rather difficult to pull off with a NB, except in the form of 1h/shield NB builds (which are pretty fun if you ever want to try one) or the specialist ganker builds. So I would specialize in either magicka or stamina. Since you are using bow, I'd suggest specializing in stamina, and pour everything into the size of the stam pool and weapon damage.

    Forget weapon crit unless you are going to use shadowy disguise rather than dark cloak.
    Edited by Aeratus on October 6, 2014 10:20PM
  • EatUrNumNumz
    EatUrNumNumz
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    I have grown quite fond of my DW magicka build though. As much as I'd rather not give up the bow and probably go resto staff, it's looking alot like something I'll have to do. Also my soft cap isn't even close to 200 for weapon damage, but I still have it overcharged. Why am I not doing more damage with it and how do they get theirs that high?

    I also feel as though I wouldn't get nearly as much damage out of DW/Bow stam build as I would from a magicka one.
    I mean I feel like I've seen alot of people with a smiliar build to mine, (DW/Bow) do just fine. Would I also need to swap from 5 med 2 light armor to possibly the other way around?

    Also why "Forget weapon crit unless you are going to use shadowy disguise rather than dark cloak."?
    Edited by EatUrNumNumz on October 6, 2014 10:22PM
  • Aeratus
    Aeratus
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    I mean I feel like I've seen alot of people with a smiliar build to mine, (DW/Bow) do just fine.
    The NBs with dw/bow that are successful are pure stamina builds. They are not hybrid builds like yours.

    In this game, you must either have burst damage, or sustained survivability.

    The problem with dw/bow hybrid NB builds is that you lack both the burst damage of pure stamina builds, as well as the survivaility of other builds you see out there (i.e., templars, dks, shield-stacking sorcs, shield/resto magicka NBs). In contrast, a templar can pull off a dw/bow hybrid because they have a ton of ways to heal themselves to maintain survivability, whereas an NB cannot meaningfully heal without a resto staff (or some type of magicka build that has a good heal using strife and can spam sap essence all day).

    DW pure magicka build is fine, if you want to be a teleport strike ganker using shadowy disguise. In this situation, the sole purpose of DW is to boost your weapon crit for teleport strike/veiled strike, and DW isn't used for any weapon skills. Unfortunately, you'll have to drop the bow, sine the bow doesn't add anything to this build.
    Also why "Forget weapon crit unless you are going to use shadowy disguise rather than dark cloak."?
    As I mentioned, there are people with 63-80% crit resist due to the use of impenetrable armor. So if a dk tank is moving along and he has 80% crit resist, your chance of landing a critical strike against him is 0% unless your crit rating is above 80%. Even if your weapon crit is 85% (which is probably close to the theoretical maximum without active skills/potions), you only have a 5% chance of landing a crit against someone with 80% resist. Therefore, you might as well not bother with crit, and instead focus on other stats like weapon damage.

    The only way to reliably get critical hits is to overpower their impenetrable using shadowy disguise.
    Edited by Aeratus on October 6, 2014 10:46PM
  • EatUrNumNumz
    EatUrNumNumz
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    I definitely see what you mean. But I still love the increased movement speed from dark cloak and the debuff.

    So I should start training on Resto staff now instead of bow. Now that'll mean I'll have to go majority light armor or all light armor now instead as well correct?

    And build spell crit for a magicka build or stick with the weapon crit? I noticed that concealed weapon, ambush, swallow soul, soul harvest damage is all increased by spell damage. Why build weap crit and weap damage if they aren't made stronger by it?

    Also right now I'm using the Warrior stone to increase weapon damage with divines on every piece. Should I swap to maybe the Apprentice for spell pen? Again, how do people have such high weapon damage and softcap for their weapon damage compared to my measly 174?
    Edited by EatUrNumNumz on October 6, 2014 10:56PM
  • Aeratus
    Aeratus
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    The gem in the resto staff line is the healing ward morph of steadfast ward. It only requires level 20 in the skill line, which isn't too difficult to get .

    Personally, I'd say max out everything if you can, lol. On my NB, I have all weapon and armor lines maxed except 2h. I'm currently working on maxing my 2h as well.

    Whether you go all light or partially light is probably up to you.
    And build spell crit for a magicka build or stick with the weapon crit? I noticed that concealed weapon, ambush, swallow soul, soul harvest damage is all increased by spell damage. Why build weap crit and weap damage if they aren't made stronger by it?
    Ambush, veiled strike (concealed weapon), impale, and soul harvest use weapon crit, even though they scale off of magicka and spell damage. Obviously, weapon damage is of no use to any class or magicka-based skills.

    The fact that the melee-like class skills use weapon crit leads to a conundrum where you would need a combination of spell damage and weapon crit to get the most out of these skills.

    Mundus stone probably isn't the most important factor. Since they can be easily changed, you can see what you like the best.
  • natureaddict_ESO
    I've built mine around crit. I have 59% weapon crit before potions. I use the shadow mundus to increase crit damage by 10%. NB has a passive that increases crit damage by another 10%. The archer's mind set increases it by 15% from stealth, 5% when not stealthed. My stamina is 2500 with food and all gear enchanted with stam. Weapon damage with bow is 197. 220 with daggers. I understand that people with high defense will not fall to me. 7/7 impenetrable wearers are simply off the table. Not everyone out there does that though. I absolutely destroy people I CAN crit on. Heavy bow attacks crit in the 1700's. Lethal arrow has hit for 2350. Venom arrow, 600.

    Point is, you can kill people out there. Just don't expect to kill the vr14's with blue shields in their health bars walking around with 1h shield and dragon wings flapping every 5 seconds. Wait in stealth for an easier target.
  • kijima
    kijima
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    What traits are you running on your weapons? Since you've got two light, you might want to try sharpened on your bow, that will help a LOT in PvP.

    Most PvP'ers are running a fair amount of impen on their armour, which makes life a little tough, you can take them down though,

    Using cloak as an NB will help with big openers, same goes for stealth and of course, hitting from behind. NB's shouldn't try frontal attacks, as while you might be able to mow someone down from the front, it uses up most pools to do so, then you are stuck if someone else pops out out stealth who wants to kill you.

    Your VR3 so there is no point telling you how to suck eggs, you know to hit from behind as frontal attacks are a waste of time, you know how to use stealth, cloak (stupid broken cloak) and so on.

    The only advice I could give you is on Your bow bar, it's probably a little too bowcentric, I'd try throwing camo hunter (fighters guild) on their and mark target too. Venom arrow and the snipe morph, I think you had lethal right? Are your main staples for a bow, weave in some light bow attacks and you are done. Since you are a vamp, adding in mist form on your bar wouldnt hurt either, it's good for getting out of a tricky situation. Soul tether which I see you are running is a good bit of gear in PvP with your bow bar too ;)

    As for your DW bar, running immoveable (heavy) will help you stay alive, as will sap essence and swallow soul. Sap is great when in a group. The problem is, doing so doesn't leave to much left to play with on your bar. Ambush is only good for an opener, and only done from behind and/or stealthed for added effectiveness, other than the one big hit, it's pointless. Great for being in a small gank group, but for outright killing on the battlefield, it's pretty lame compared with other skills. Having said that, I like using it myself, but sometimes when I get serious in my guild, I drop ambush as it's not effective enough.Soul Harvest Ult is great on dual wield, does a good amount of damage, and builds ult super quick due to the low cost. Ult plus one rotation = another ult.

    I'd be looking at other things you could do, steel tornado is fun, that with batswarm (since your a vamp) sap essence and swallow soul can drop a fair whack of people if you get in quick before anyone notices what is happening. Bats on your dual wield bar is fun, as I'm sure you know. Impale is good for a finisher, that you obviously know.

    Jewelery with things like weapon damage to push you over soft cap is nice, but I wouldn't bother investing in that, as you'll want to level up after getting beaten more times than not by VR14's and then they will be pointless. And the actual types of weapon damage you have on your weapons are important too. That's my .02 cents worth.

    Been here since Feb 2014 - You'd think I'd be half reasonable at this game by now...
  • EatUrNumNumz
    EatUrNumNumz
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    Okay so, the main things here for magicka build are:
    -Change from bow to resto staff
    -Probably go more light armor
    -Build weapon crit and spell damage
    -Don't worry so much on weapon damage

    So with that what sets would probably benefit me more for this build? And what traits/enchants would be more helpful?
  • tordr86b16_ESO
    tordr86b16_ESO
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    my DK has around 50% ish crit resistance. use crit potions, they are your best friend.
  • EatUrNumNumz
    EatUrNumNumz
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    kijima wrote: »
    What traits are you running on your weapons? Since you've got two light, you might want to try sharpened on your bow, that will help a LOT in PvP.

    Right now I'm running armor reduction on one dagger, unresistable damage on the other both with the precise traits(crit chance) and on my bow armor reduction and also precise. I just had a guildy make me a resto staff and I'm steady leveling it now. Just need some skill points for the tree.
    kijima wrote: »
    Jewelery with things like weapon damage to push you over soft cap is nice, but I wouldn't bother investing in that, as you'll want to level up after getting beaten more times than not by VR14's and then they will be pointless. And the actual types of weapon damage you have on your weapons are important too.

    What do you mean by that?
  • TheBull
    TheBull
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    You need spell dmg if you are trying the NB 1-2-3. It's tough out there for that build now a days though with impenetrable being completely out of whack and shield stacking.

    gl
  • TheBull
    TheBull
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    /sigh
    Edited by TheBull on October 7, 2014 2:18AM
  • TheBull
    TheBull
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    ...

    Edited by TheBull on October 7, 2014 2:17AM
  • TheBull
    TheBull
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    wtf... triple post
    Edited by TheBull on October 7, 2014 2:18AM
  • bosmern_ESO
    bosmern_ESO
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    Its because on paper you have all those stats, but when you collide into an enemy you have to take into consideration all the armor and buffs they got, not to mention blocking which is completely OP right now.
    ~Thallen~
  • Aeratus
    Aeratus
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    -Build weapon crit and spell damage
    I didn't intend to give the impression that weapon crit is necessary. On my build, I don't bother with weapon crit. Crit is too much of an all-or-nothing ordeal. So I chose "nothing." I am not much of a burst-style ganker. Instead, I'm more the sustain-style build (shield and resto staff), and I get into long drawn out fights with DKs and templars.

    Stacking both weapon crit and spell damage requires a very specialized assassin build because this combination of stats is difficult to come by. This type of build is probably not that common, because it is difficult to craft. I wouldn't know myself what the optimals are for such a build.

    Good sets with spell damage are the magnus and torug pact set. Also, using 3x +spell damage jewlery is the easiest way to use spell damage.

    There are many different ways to play a magicka build. You can also try some of the incredibly powerful vampire-based combos (batswarm + sap essence + immovable).
  • MiyaTheUnbroken
    MiyaTheUnbroken
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    Another factor to consider is your actual play style in PvP. Especially at your level, it's unlikely you'll be able to kill many people on your own, even if your stats are perfect. NBs aren't always meant for direct combat. I went pure stamina bow, and I struggled a lot at first, until I watched some videos of other NBs and realized I was trying to hard to stay in the game. You need to find your cut and run point and pay attention to it. If the tables turn and they get the upper hand on you, run and hide, then follow them. When you're with a large group, say during a siege, you'll want to be watching your opponent's health bars and pick off the weak and injured ones. Also, be sure to memorize those shield graphics. If you time it correctly, with a lot of people you can pop some shots in between.

    In short, play smart not hard. You aren't meant to be a warrior, you're meant to be an opportunist.
  • EatUrNumNumz
    EatUrNumNumz
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    Aeratus wrote: »
    -Build weapon crit and spell damage
    I didn't intend to give the impression that weapon crit is necessary. On my build, I don't bother with weapon crit. Crit is too much of an all-or-nothing ordeal. So I chose "nothing." I am not much of a burst-style ganker. Instead, I'm more the sustain-style build (shield and resto staff), and I get into long drawn out fights with DKs and templars.

    Stacking both weapon crit and spell damage requires a very specialized assassin build because this combination of stats is difficult to come by. This type of build is probably not that common, because it is difficult to craft. I wouldn't know myself what the optimals are for such a build.

    Good sets with spell damage are the magnus and torug pact set. Also, using 3x +spell damage jewlery is the easiest way to use spell damage.

    There are many different ways to play a magicka build. You can also try some of the incredibly powerful vampire-based combos (batswarm + sap essence + immovable).

    I'll definitely have to take a look at a bunch of different sets then, and skill line ups. From my hundings and night mothers gaze sets as you can tell I've been trying to play the typical "rogue" kind of archetype, which mostly isn't that viable in ESO.
    Another factor to consider is your actual play style in PvP. Especially at your level, it's unlikely you'll be able to kill many people on your own, even if your stats are perfect. NBs aren't always meant for direct combat. I went pure stamina bow, and I struggled a lot at first, until I watched some videos of other NBs and realized I was trying to hard to stay in the game. You need to find your cut and run point and pay attention to it. If the tables turn and they get the upper hand on you, run and hide, then follow them. When you're with a large group, say during a siege, you'll want to be watching your opponent's health bars and pick off the weak and injured ones. Also, be sure to memorize those shield graphics. If you time it correctly, with a lot of people you can pop some shots in between.

    In short, play smart not hard. You aren't meant to be a warrior, you're meant to be an opportunist.

    I know I have to really level up alot to even have a chance against most people in Cyrodiil being v3 and all, but you do also make a good point. With what you've said I've thought about it and realized I probably stay in fights too long. Even if I don't insta-nuke someone, I'm still fighting them and then I try to run after all my resources are gone and/or they get the upperhand and I'm screwed. I'll take what you've said into account and try to be more wary.

    Want to go ahead and say a quick thanks to everyone who's gave some input. This all helps alot. :)
  • kijima
    kijima
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    Sorry, I was assuming you wanted to stay true to the sterotype, if not then yeah grab yourself a resto and desto, skirt and stick up my man.

    Not my cup of tea, but that's okay. I'm paying for my sub, not anyone elses ;)



    Been here since Feb 2014 - You'd think I'd be half reasonable at this game by now...
  • Aeratus
    Aeratus
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    Another factor to consider is your actual play style in PvP.

    That's a good point. Select your build depending on your play style in PVP. Here is what I would recommend for the various play styles.

    1. Stealthy skirmisher/sniper
    - Full stamina build, full medium armor, focused on bow as the main weapon
    - Probably the most common type of NB you see in Cyrodiil

    2. Melee assassin
    - Mostly magicka build with dual wield, or stamina build with 2h, armor varies from player to player
    - Far less common than 1, because this build is more difficult to play

    3. Survivability and sustained open combat
    - Resto staff and 1h-shield, hybrid or full magicka, armor type varies from player to player
    - Lots of variety here, since resto and shield maximizes survivability potential and gives you a good baseline for any setup

    4. Large scale group combat/AOE train
    - Full magicka, full light armor, preferably vampire, resto staff and shield/resto/destro
    - The vampire variant is seen most often in organized guild groups
    Edited by Aeratus on October 7, 2014 3:22AM
  • kijima
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    Very good point Aeratus, anyone can recommend what works for them, but if you don't like that playstyle, it's kind of pointless even if it's beastly. It also goes without saying that what might work well in PvE doesn't necessarily translate to working well in PvP. I'm at the moment trying to help a guildie that is PvE only at this stage as he doesnt want to come to cyrodiil and get owned, not untill he is VR14 anyway. He is using Heavy Armour, and while that's fine in PvE non vet, try that in Cyrodiil and there won't be enough black plastic in Nirn for the bodybags you'll be carted away in.

    From my own experience, and to make things easier for me for being adaptable when the situation in Cyrodiil can change quickly from attacking, to defending to ganking etc, I now run an addon where I can quickly change my saved skill bars depending on what I'm doing. The bar I'd use for stealthy ganks isn't what I'd use defending a breach at a keep for instance. I'd have caltrops and purge as an example for something like that. You might want to check out add on's that help with that kind of thing, same goes for amour and weapons, there are a few outfitters addons that will help with that.

    A guildie I play with is best described as a 'Dragonblade', his setup is very different to your usual nightblade with 7 medium being DW or a stealthy bow user, and not a cookie cutter 7 light with staff either. Point being he plays this way with his hybrid build as he enjoys it the most, and he is without a doubt the most devastating NB I've ever seen, he's more DK than NB on the battlefield and very tanky. The man understands the game and has skills which goes a long way to the style of build he has.

    Play style usually doesn't come into consideration here most of the time, the advice you'll get is grab a staff and 7 light and anything else is rubbish so don't bother, or if you like to gank being an NB get yourself some medium, stamina up and enjoy your bow now. Just don't expect to mow people down like a DK can, and I gotta say while that style of play is heaps of fun, you can get sick of DK's wrecking you.

    TLDR version, You need to work out what style of play you like the most and build to that.





    Been here since Feb 2014 - You'd think I'd be half reasonable at this game by now...
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