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Countering Zerg Balls
ghengis_dhan
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For those who might not know, a "Zerg Ball" is a large group of players who stay close together and repeatedly use area damage as they run from place to place. The most common abilities they use are batswarm (vampire) and impulse (destruction staff).
The way to counter this behavior is another group of players circling the Zerg Ballers and attacking from range. We've done this before. Yes, it takes coorination and skill. Yes, it can take a while to bring down the group. Yes, you will have allies die. But, it can be done as long as you don't bunch up and give them a target to run for.
I hope this helps.
Now, for my rant...If you are whining all the time and threatening to quit. Please do so. If you can't have fun here, then maybe this isn't the game for you.
From each patch notes, we can see that ZOS is actively fixing things. Maybe their priorities are not yours, and maybe some things are much harder to fix. Many of the game developers play this game as well, and they want the game running smoothly and balanced just like everybody else.
The way to counter this behavior is another group of players circling the Zerg Ballers and attacking from range. We've done this before. Yes, it takes coorination and skill. Yes, it can take a while to bring down the group. Yes, you will have allies die. But, it can be done as long as you don't bunch up and give them a target to run for.
I hope this helps.
Now, for my rant...If you are whining all the time and threatening to quit. Please do so. If you can't have fun here, then maybe this isn't the game for you.
From each patch notes, we can see that ZOS is actively fixing things. Maybe their priorities are not yours, and maybe some things are much harder to fix. Many of the game developers play this game as well, and they want the game running smoothly and balanced just like everybody else.
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Teddy Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
Teddy Roosevelt, Paris, 1910
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Bramir✭✭✭✭I agree about the counter to zergballs and I've even been part of PUGs who have pulled this off, but with one qualification. It only works in the open. There is no counter to zergballs at choke points or on flags except for your own zergball with people, and that is a major problem, because zergballing is dumbing down what could have been a spectacular PvP experience.2 -
Huntler✭✭✭✭✭
✭oil.
/Thread
If it didn't work, you didn't use enough.
Oh and sling some meat in their face....2 -
ghengis_dhan✭✭✭In close spaces, we use oil, volcanic runes, caltrops, and utlimates. I can't say how successful we were in many of those cases because we were defending keeps, and who knows how many other players were there doing other things. But a Zerg Ball doesn't stand a chance running up stairs in the face of 10 oils, 5 volcanic runes repeatedly cast in their path, and everybody dropping their ultimates on them."It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Teddy Roosevelt, Paris, 19100 -
Bramir✭✭✭✭ghengis_dhan wrote: »In close spaces, we use oil, volcanic runes, caltrops, and utlimates. I can't say how successful we were in many of those cases because we were defending keeps, and who knows how many other players were there doing other things. But a Zerg Ball doesn't stand a chance running up stairs in the face of 10 oils, 5 volcanic runes repeatedly cast in their path, and everybody dropping their ultimates on them.
Sorry, but this happens all the time. Immovable, purge, purge, purge, purge, purge, Immovable, purge, purge, purge, purge, purge. Its just about as easy as Immovable, impulse, impulse, impulse, impulse...
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ghengis_dhan✭✭✭
Not every group has someone who spams Purge during keep assaults like you and I both do. But, you can't Purge if you are up in the air from a volcanic rune or stunned from an ultimate. The point being that you disrupt the group using everything at your disposal AND drop oil on them.Oil is easily countered by literally one person spamming purge. I do it all the time...Edited by ghengis_dhan on October 2, 2014 5:59PM"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Teddy Roosevelt, Paris, 19100 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Discontinue use of Zerg Ball if any of the following occurs:
itching
vertigo
dizziness
tingling in extremities
loss of balance or coordination
slurred speech
temporary blindness
profuse sweating
or heart palpitations.
If Zerg Ball begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
Zerg Ball may stick to certain types of skin.
When not in use, Zerg Ball should be returned to its special container and kept under refrigeration. Failure to do so relieves the makers of Zerg Ball, I Can Spam Incorporated, and its parent company, Zerg Ball Unlimited, of any and all liability.
Ingredients of Zerg Ball include an unknown glowing green substance which fell to Earth, presumably from outer space.
Do not taunt Zerg Ball.Retired.
Nord mDK1 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭this would work out in the open.... but inside an enclosed space it is a different story.
oil, if the zerg ball is "good" wont work. all it takes is one or 2 players using some kind of purge ability
meatbags....... yes.... maybe...... sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.
the only surefire way to beat them in an enclosed space, is to make a zerg blob of your own, which is a huge problem, as these "ZergS" really take the fun out of the game. Not only that, but it causes a lot of lag. And yes, they do cause lag.I know because I dealt with it first hand many times.
and honestly, don't you think it is a bit stupid, that people all bunched up together, are able to take all the crap from siege and other AOE attacks like they do?
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Cody✭✭✭✭✭
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don't you think people try to use volcanic rune? let me tell you why it does not work: immovable.(which, btw, a lot of those people using it don't even wear one piece of HA. makes sense right? lol)ghengis_dhan wrote: »
Not every group has someone who spams Purge during keep assaults like you and I both do. But, you can't Purge if you are up in the air from a volcanic rune or stunned from an ultimate. The point being that you disrupt the group using everything at your disposal AND drop oil on them.Oil is easily countered by literally one person spamming purge. I do it all the time...
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Bramir✭✭✭✭ghengis_dhan wrote: »
Not every group has someone who spams Purge during keep assaults like you and I both do. But, you can't Purge if you are up in the air from a volcanic rune or stunned from an ultimate. The point being that you disrupt the group using everything at your disposal AND drop oil on them.Oil is easily countered by literally one person spamming purge. I do it all the time...
None of that is going to do much good if the purger is using immovable.
don't you think people try to use volcanic rune? let me tell you why it does not work: immovable.(which, btw, a lot of those people using it don't even wear one piece of HA. makes sense right? lol)ghengis_dhan wrote: »
Not every group has someone who spams Purge during keep assaults like you and I both do. But, you can't Purge if you are up in the air from a volcanic rune or stunned from an ultimate. The point being that you disrupt the group using everything at your disposal AND drop oil on them.Oil is easily countered by literally one person spamming purge. I do it all the time...
I wear five pieces of heavy these days in PvP...partially because using Immovable in light armor makes me feel dirty...
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Op, you have good intent but it is misplaced.
The issue with zerg balls isn't wether they can or cannot be killed, but that this tactic is the only thing they should do.
Even against the tactic you listed here, stacking is still the best defense.0 -
MiyaTheUnbroken✭✭✭✭Lol, I'm a NB archer, and honestly not a strong player. My counter is retreating maneuver, shadow cloak, run like hell.0
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Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ghengis_dhan wrote: »Now, for my rant...If you are whining all the time and threatening to quit. Please do so. If you can't have fun here, then maybe this isn't the game for you.
I have. I refuse to play a game where the company sits by for months and allows this zerg fapping meta to crash their servers and make PVP unplayable, then has the audacity to call it "skill" and invites these jerks to their guild convention!
Why pay for something I can't play.
I've been one of ESO's staunchest supporters, but I've had enough of this crap being rewarded.Edited by Phinix1 on October 3, 2014 7:06AM2 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭It'd be cool to have some buffs/spells/(something other than one heavy armor set) that reduced only aoe damage. Enough that it would be a lot faster to use single target attacks when used.Edited by Domander on October 3, 2014 8:21AM0 -
Nidwin✭✭✭don't you think people try to use volcanic rune? let me tell you why it does not work: immovable.(which, btw, a lot of those people using it don't even wear one piece of HA. makes sense right? lol)
This is the main issues with Batswarm/Impulse 6-12 pukes premades. The so called Zerg Balls. Because of Immovable they don't spread out, but blob up together and perform that imbecility we're all aware of know.
If they were not immune to CC they would be picked out or partially neutralized making it possible to destroy that premade properly.
With my Ult (Practiced Incarnation) properly timed I can counter 2-3 Batswarm/Impulse pukes because of those 6s That will heal my peeps full up and keep them full up. During that time and the couple of seconds later it's up to my peeps to finish the job, of course.
Where it goes wrong is when we run into those 6-12 men premades.Nidwinqq Templar (healzzz) United Warhammer Vets
Nidwinqq RR100 Magus till the end, R.I.P. Badlands1 -
ghengis_dhan✭✭✭
Hmmm. I've never been able to purge when negated. Even when I had immovable up. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.None of that is going to do much good if the purger is using immovable.
Same here with the five pieces heavy...well...except for the dirty part. I'm a pretty aggressive healer at times and can get hit a lot. I intentionally try to make it look like I'm wearing all light armor, so enemy players will be tempted to think I'm squishy.I wear five pieces of heavy these days in PvP...partially because using Immovable in light armor makes me feel dirty..."It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Teddy Roosevelt, Paris, 19100 -
ghengis_dhan✭✭✭
On keep defense, I'm the guy stealthed on the ledge spamming volcanic runes, caltrops, and negate. I've seen a lot of players bounce up in the air when groups rush into the keep. So, not everyone is using Immovable, or maybe I'm catching them between the time it expires and when they push the button to renew it. The point is that you don't have to catch everyone in the group with it. You just have to catch enough enemy players to break them up. So, instead of a tight group storming the keep, it becomes more of a trickle. Something, the other defenders can easily deal with.don't you think people try to use volcanic rune? let me tell you why it does not work: immovable.Edited by ghengis_dhan on October 3, 2014 1:39PM"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Teddy Roosevelt, Paris, 19100 -
ghengis_dhan✭✭✭
Except for the performance issues that this activity could be causing, I have no problem with players who want to run around in groups pressing 1 or 2 buttons all the time. It may not be skillful, but it can be effective. Some of the posters on this forum (not necessarily this thread), seem to have the mentality of medieval knights who bemoaned the advent of gunpowder. Sure, it doesn't take much skill for a peasant to point a gun at a highly trained swordsmen, but it was very effective.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »The issue with zerg balls isn't wether they can or cannot be killed, but that this tactic is the only thing they should do.
As to the performance problems that zerg ballers create, honestly, behind the scenes we don't know the true cause. We just have our observations that seem to support it. Until someone with access to the code comes forward to tell us that zerg balling is the cause, we just have to wait.Edited by ghengis_dhan on October 3, 2014 1:28PM"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Teddy Roosevelt, Paris, 19100 -
ghengis_dhan wrote: »
Except for the performance issues that this activity could be causing, I have no problem with players who want to run around in groups pressing 1 or 2 buttons all the time. It may not be skillful, but it can be effective. Some of the posters on this forum (not necessarily this thread), seem to have the mentality of medieval knights who bemoaned the advent of gunpowder. Sure, it doesn't take much skill for a peasant to point a gun at a highly trained swordsmen, but it was very effective.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »The issue with zerg balls isn't wether they can or cannot be killed, but that this tactic is the only thing they should do.
As to the performance problems that zerg ballers create, honestly, behind the scenes we don't know the true cause. We just have our observations that seem to support it. Until someone with access to the code comes forward to tell us that zerg balling is the cause, we just have to wait.
You missinterpret my comments.
it's not a matter of proverbial "skill" or "honor" but about sound game design.
For a game to be healthy, it needs to have a breadth of meaningful choices. Stacking isn't one of those choice as there are nos situations in game where it is detrimental. It is just as mandatory as wearign armor or using abilities.
Without target caps, stacking becomes situational, for instance, when wanting to use pbaoe buffs, and comes at the drawback of being easy to focus.
it will provide a more linear progression curve between groups.
And regarding the performances, it's an educated guess.
We have the concrete observations that it causes lag when it is explotied massively, but on paper also, target caps require more calculations, especially for smart healing.Edited by frosth.darkomenb16_ESO on October 3, 2014 4:29PM0 -
ghengis_dhan✭✭✭
I disagree that stacking has no downside. I feel it does. If a sorcerer drops negate and then all his buddies drop their ultimates in quick succession, you can take out a stack very quickly. If the stack is out in the open, another group that circles the stack and attacks from range can take out the stack...after a long fight.frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »For a game to be healthy, it needs to have a breadth of meaningful choices. Stacking isn't one of those choice as there are nos situations in game where it is detrimental. It is just as mandatory as wearign armor or using abilities.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this a tactic used in modern warfare. A military unit might stay spread out until right before they begin an assault, and then they group up tight to maximize their firepower. I know it was used during WWII because that is my favorite subject to study.
The group that I roll with will do the same thing. We stay relatively spread out during a fight, but right before we launch an assault on a keep breach, we stack on the crown, hit maneuver, barrier, and rush in while I spam purges and heals."It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Teddy Roosevelt, Paris, 19100 -
Well, this is an interesting point of view.
I personally feel that without AoE caps, stacking will have a role similar to what you describe. Group up for a barrier/heal, then spread out again.
Or stay spread out until a target is called and everyone "charge" on it to finish it quickly. I am sure there are other ways of using it situationaly but at the cost of being potentially one shotted.
It will be interesting and I'm looking forward to it.
However, what I meant by "no downside" is that there are no more profitable alternatives.
Sure it may be an easier target and hit while using the tactics you described, but it's at most 6, even for ultimates. Which is more than compensated by smart healing that will always target the 6 being hit.
Spreading out would mean losing the advantage of easy smart healing and be easier targets for single target abilities. It would also mean a harder time hitting the enemy as impulse wouldn't be useable anymore and the group woudl require actual focus fire communication.
In short: Can they be dealt with? Yes, but should they spread out? No.0 -
ghengis_dhan wrote: »
On keep defense, I'm the guy stealthed on the ledge spamming volcanic runes, caltrops, and negate. I've seen a lot of players bounce up in the air when groups rush into the keep. So, not everyone is using Immovable, or maybe I'm catching them between the time it expires and when they push the button to renew it. The point is that you don't have to catch everyone in the group with it. You just have to catch enough enemy players to break them up. So, instead of a tight group storming the keep, it becomes more of a trickle. Something, the other defenders can easily deal with.don't you think people try to use volcanic rune? let me tell you why it does not work: immovable.
ghengis is right, immovable in these cases are good in theory, having it up at the right times is something else. Same with negate, you can break it yet beeing able to do so or to do so fast enough not to die is again, something else.0 -
Turn undead, negate magicJust a spoonful of moon sugar helps the medicine go down.0
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nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭So many things in pvp would be fixed if impulse had a cast time with movement penalty during like snipe shot has.0 -
Impulse is just a symptom of the issue.
It is in itself, a pretty standard ability. It has a wider radius than ranged aoes but has a lot less reach(8m instead of 27 + radius/2).
It also has less damage per mana spent compared to a good portion of ranged aoes. On paper, Impulse is actually well designed.
However, when the game mechanics dictate that you should stack up in order to avoid incoming damage, then pbaoes become much more potent than they are on paper. A group leader just has to walk someplace to get an instant focus fire that one shots everything around him. Why bother with anything less efficient? If it wasn't impulse it would be cleave or whirlwind that would be spammed.
Pbaoes can be part of a healthy mix of abilities, and have a situational role, but for that, you need a healthy meta game.0
