effinshiddy wrote: »

AoE should not be upped in any fashion. we started with unlimited and what happened? people left in droves form the insanity of small groups farming the *** out of 100 man armies.

the only people crying about the AoE caps are either new (to this game or MMOs in general) or are the ones who abused it so badly that no one wanted to play this pvp.

we are STILL plagued with problems of spammed 5-hit AoEs and the groups who melt people with it capped. we FINALLY just saw the end of the mindless bolt-stun sorcs that could level entire armies of foes. no game has ever successfully implemented unlimited AoE and been fun (and STAYED fun) in large scale pvp.

this issue needs to die already...but of course the heads of the big guilds are mostly the AP farmers who abuse these sort of tactics (coupled with oils, swarms, pulsars, etc) and they're the ones representing us?

it will be an absolute shame to see this game get catered to those people when the market and the longevity of the game is wildly more dependent on the casuals, part timers, and small guilded friend groups. i say this as a player IN a LARGE PvP guild who has been gaming in MMOs for more than 2 decades who spends almost every (sad) waking hour on this game atm. the restrictions are not breaking this game for anyone but a measly few and their removal will only allow these small powerful groups the ability to wipe others and farm AP faster. which sounds great from a nearsighted perspective but i'm still fighting to see this game last...

I'd say the people complaining about AoE caps mostly played DAOC, which had far superior PvP because it didn't have AoE Caps, and also the fact we saw not only Guild Wars 2 become complete crap because of Caps but this game has slowly devolved into a laggy mess because of the Caps.

Oh yea..If you're getting farmed with 100 people by the small groups..That's your own bloody fault for stacking up like baddies.

I don't care about caps, put a small timer on impulse and stop people from going invisible during bat swarm AND being able to cast impulse at the same time and I'll be happy. I don't care if someone is emperor or not, they should not be allowed to decimate entire raids the way some people are. This is not skill or fair play and it certainly isn't fun for anyone else.
This is a clear exploit of a badly designed system. I have absolutely no respect for the people who use these methods. If/when these skills are finally sorted out (which if I'm honest will probably be never knowing zos) you'll finally see what a hack these guys are.

Manoekin wrote: »

Komma wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

effinshiddy wrote: »

AoE should not be upped in any fashion. we started with unlimited and what happened? people left in droves form the insanity of small groups farming the *** out of 100 man armies.

the only people crying about the AoE caps are either new (to this game or MMOs in general) or are the ones who abused it so badly that no one wanted to play this pvp.

we are STILL plagued with problems of spammed 5-hit AoEs and the groups who melt people with it capped. we FINALLY just saw the end of the mindless bolt-stun sorcs that could level entire armies of foes. no game has ever successfully implemented unlimited AoE and been fun (and STAYED fun) in large scale pvp.

this issue needs to die already...but of course the heads of the big guilds are mostly the AP farmers who abuse these sort of tactics (coupled with oils, swarms, pulsars, etc) and they're the ones representing us?

it will be an absolute shame to see this game get catered to those people when the market and the longevity of the game is wildly more dependent on the casuals, part timers, and small guilded friend groups. i say this as a player IN a LARGE PvP guild who has been gaming in MMOs for more than 2 decades who spends almost every (sad) waking hour on this game atm. the restrictions are not breaking this game for anyone but a measly few and their removal will only allow these small powerful groups the ability to wipe others and farm AP faster. which sounds great from a nearsighted perspective but i'm still fighting to see this game last...

I'd say the people complaining about AoE caps mostly played DAOC, which had far superior PvP because it didn't have AoE Caps, and also the fact we saw not only Guild Wars 2 become complete crap because of Caps but this game has slowly devolved into a laggy mess because of the Caps.

Oh yea..If you're getting farmed with 100 people by the small groups..That's your own bloody fault for stacking up like baddies.

How do aoe caps cause lag? Its a serious question. I have always wondered that.

aoe caps = people group up into large groups because any attack can only hit 6 people, so it decreases your chance to get hit and allows you to heal through the damage easier. So it basically becomes big groups trying to aoe other big groups that are trying to aoe them, and that causes lag since the server has a hard time keeping up. Back before aoe caps entire zergs would get wiped out super quick by organized groups of even just 4 players. Certain emperors would be able to kill zergs by themselves with the emperor buffs. The quicker fights result in a lot less players on screen and casting spells.

That's just what I get from it.

More specificly,
Pick your favourite aoe spell and stack in your 24 man bomb squad and charge in a crowded enemy bombgroup.

Each time YOU cast your favourite AoE dmg or heal spell, the system makes calculations. It decides which 6 enemy/friendly can be hit/healed by your single AoE.

So lets say this fact "X"

As you in bombsquad, and as enemy group doing the same;

24X x (spam factor) + 24Y x (spam factor)

Result is tons of lag

Manoekin wrote: »

Komma wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

effinshiddy wrote: »

AoE should not be upped in any fashion. we started with unlimited and what happened? people left in droves form the insanity of small groups farming the *** out of 100 man armies.

the only people crying about the AoE caps are either new (to this game or MMOs in general) or are the ones who abused it so badly that no one wanted to play this pvp.

we are STILL plagued with problems of spammed 5-hit AoEs and the groups who melt people with it capped. we FINALLY just saw the end of the mindless bolt-stun sorcs that could level entire armies of foes. no game has ever successfully implemented unlimited AoE and been fun (and STAYED fun) in large scale pvp.

this issue needs to die already...but of course the heads of the big guilds are mostly the AP farmers who abuse these sort of tactics (coupled with oils, swarms, pulsars, etc) and they're the ones representing us?

it will be an absolute shame to see this game get catered to those people when the market and the longevity of the game is wildly more dependent on the casuals, part timers, and small guilded friend groups. i say this as a player IN a LARGE PvP guild who has been gaming in MMOs for more than 2 decades who spends almost every (sad) waking hour on this game atm. the restrictions are not breaking this game for anyone but a measly few and their removal will only allow these small powerful groups the ability to wipe others and farm AP faster. which sounds great from a nearsighted perspective but i'm still fighting to see this game last...

I'd say the people complaining about AoE caps mostly played DAOC, which had far superior PvP because it didn't have AoE Caps, and also the fact we saw not only Guild Wars 2 become complete crap because of Caps but this game has slowly devolved into a laggy mess because of the Caps.

Oh yea..If you're getting farmed with 100 people by the small groups..That's your own bloody fault for stacking up like baddies.

How do aoe caps cause lag? Its a serious question. I have always wondered that.

aoe caps = people group up into large groups because any attack can only hit 6 people, so it decreases your chance to get hit and allows you to heal through the damage easier. So it basically becomes big groups trying to aoe other big groups that are trying to aoe them, and that causes lag since the server has a hard time keeping up. Back before aoe caps entire zergs would get wiped out super quick by organized groups of even just 4 players. Certain emperors would be able to kill zergs by themselves with the emperor buffs. The quicker fights result in a lot less players on screen and casting spells.

That's just what I get from it.

There were always AoE caps... There were just a few abilities which didn't have them.

I thought this was common knowledge by now?

Makes me wonder....

Manoekin wrote: »

Komma wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

effinshiddy wrote: »

AoE should not be upped in any fashion. we started with unlimited and what happened? people left in droves form the insanity of small groups farming the *** out of 100 man armies.

the only people crying about the AoE caps are either new (to this game or MMOs in general) or are the ones who abused it so badly that no one wanted to play this pvp.

we are STILL plagued with problems of spammed 5-hit AoEs and the groups who melt people with it capped. we FINALLY just saw the end of the mindless bolt-stun sorcs that could level entire armies of foes. no game has ever successfully implemented unlimited AoE and been fun (and STAYED fun) in large scale pvp.

this issue needs to die already...but of course the heads of the big guilds are mostly the AP farmers who abuse these sort of tactics (coupled with oils, swarms, pulsars, etc) and they're the ones representing us?

it will be an absolute shame to see this game get catered to those people when the market and the longevity of the game is wildly more dependent on the casuals, part timers, and small guilded friend groups. i say this as a player IN a LARGE PvP guild who has been gaming in MMOs for more than 2 decades who spends almost every (sad) waking hour on this game atm. the restrictions are not breaking this game for anyone but a measly few and their removal will only allow these small powerful groups the ability to wipe others and farm AP faster. which sounds great from a nearsighted perspective but i'm still fighting to see this game last...

I'd say the people complaining about AoE caps mostly played DAOC, which had far superior PvP because it didn't have AoE Caps, and also the fact we saw not only Guild Wars 2 become complete crap because of Caps but this game has slowly devolved into a laggy mess because of the Caps.

Oh yea..If you're getting farmed with 100 people by the small groups..That's your own bloody fault for stacking up like baddies.

How do aoe caps cause lag? Its a serious question. I have always wondered that.

aoe caps = people group up into large groups because any attack can only hit 6 people, so it decreases your chance to get hit and allows you to heal through the damage easier. So it basically becomes big groups trying to aoe other big groups that are trying to aoe them, and that causes lag since the server has a hard time keeping up. Back before aoe caps entire zergs would get wiped out super quick by organized groups of even just 4 players. Certain emperors would be able to kill zergs by themselves with the emperor buffs. The quicker fights result in a lot less players on screen and casting spells.

That's just what I get from it.

I know everyone claims to be a programmer and have gotten a computer science degree, but I actually have and am...

Anyways, from what I can infer from my experience and what I can see. The lag is happening from the calculations when a lot of people are spamming spells in the same location.

For example, one cast of healing springs. It must calculate all hp of all players inside the healing springs. Then take the 6 lowest and apply the heal to them. Without AOE caps, it could just apply it to everybody. So instead of having a call to the database to figure out who's in range, then calculating the six people who should receive it, then modifying their health data. You could remove aoe caps. And the function would be more like, everyone in area get health. And that function would just hit everybody in the area without the added calculations.

This matters, because it appears each area has its own processor of some sort for calculations. It seems ZoS has made some architectural change on their side recently to try to combat this. As way before, a server would lag in certain locations. Now when zergballs meet, you could be in northern high rock and still lag.

Either way, you are correct about the meta of deterring zergballs as a way to reduce the lag as well. But I believe there's some data calculation and data management lag that would be alleviated as well.

But what do I know, I'm just a silly developer and I only manage the ram and memory on phones for mobile apps.

So with no aoe caps people wont run around in a zerg casting aoe's. I think I understand now...Fixing one problem can cause a much worse problem to rear its ugly head...

The buffs should only apply to players currently within the Cyrodiil instance that they are provided from.

Not in PVE.
Not in other Cyrodiil instances.

Only that Cyrodiil instance. They are the rewards for success.

PVE and cross server buffs ruin campaigns by encouraging extremely poor sportsmanship and bad behavior. They killed Bloodthorn by the desire for that to be a buff campaign. They killed Bow of Shadows. They killed Haderus. They killed Chillrend.

EP plays at a constant disadvantage without one and the solution isn't to give EP a buff campaign. The solution is to eliminate the concept entirely. It is a total aberration of the dev's original design goals.

Minnesinger wrote: »

Problems with the Current System

Trade-offs are not pronounced
Too easy to hit soft caps
Balance is harder

Solutions:

All your character’s stats, attributes, and damage values will be multiplied by 10 (for example, a Health of 2,500 would become a Health of 25,000). This will allow small percentage bonuses to realize a visible impact on your character’s stat lines.

Eww. I hate bloated stat systems. If anything that makes it feel less meaningful. Nothing like having a weapon with a huge number take a tiny sliver of a health bar. Hated that in every game I've seen it in.

Also aside from telling the difference between low level and high level items, it's not as easily read at a glance. I hope they rethink that.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

AoE caps is something that can (and likely will) be discussed with our gameplay team, which is scheduled for tomorrow.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ Remove the cap, but reduce damage if it affects more than X number of people. Additional reduction based on each additional target affected. If it hits 5 people, do full. 10, do half. 15, do third. etc. We need more middleground.


Edit:

Braidas wrote: »

apparently they're removing the caps on damaging aoe's but reducing their effectiveness by a scaled percentage after some amount of targets hit.

I guess that's what I get for not reading very much of the thread.

Manoekin wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Komma wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

effinshiddy wrote: »

AoE should not be upped in any fashion. we started with unlimited and what happened? people left in droves form the insanity of small groups farming the *** out of 100 man armies.

the only people crying about the AoE caps are either new (to this game or MMOs in general) or are the ones who abused it so badly that no one wanted to play this pvp.

we are STILL plagued with problems of spammed 5-hit AoEs and the groups who melt people with it capped. we FINALLY just saw the end of the mindless bolt-stun sorcs that could level entire armies of foes. no game has ever successfully implemented unlimited AoE and been fun (and STAYED fun) in large scale pvp.

this issue needs to die already...but of course the heads of the big guilds are mostly the AP farmers who abuse these sort of tactics (coupled with oils, swarms, pulsars, etc) and they're the ones representing us?

it will be an absolute shame to see this game get catered to those people when the market and the longevity of the game is wildly more dependent on the casuals, part timers, and small guilded friend groups. i say this as a player IN a LARGE PvP guild who has been gaming in MMOs for more than 2 decades who spends almost every (sad) waking hour on this game atm. the restrictions are not breaking this game for anyone but a measly few and their removal will only allow these small powerful groups the ability to wipe others and farm AP faster. which sounds great from a nearsighted perspective but i'm still fighting to see this game last...

I'd say the people complaining about AoE caps mostly played DAOC, which had far superior PvP because it didn't have AoE Caps, and also the fact we saw not only Guild Wars 2 become complete crap because of Caps but this game has slowly devolved into a laggy mess because of the Caps.

Oh yea..If you're getting farmed with 100 people by the small groups..That's your own bloody fault for stacking up like baddies.

How do aoe caps cause lag? Its a serious question. I have always wondered that.

aoe caps = people group up into large groups because any attack can only hit 6 people, so it decreases your chance to get hit and allows you to heal through the damage easier. So it basically becomes big groups trying to aoe other big groups that are trying to aoe them, and that causes lag since the server has a hard time keeping up. Back before aoe caps entire zergs would get wiped out super quick by organized groups of even just 4 players. Certain emperors would be able to kill zergs by themselves with the emperor buffs. The quicker fights result in a lot less players on screen and casting spells.

That's just what I get from it.

I know everyone claims to be a programmer and have gotten a computer science degree, but I actually have and am...

Anyways, from what I can infer from my experience and what I can see. The lag is happening from the calculations when a lot of people are spamming spells in the same location.

For example, one cast of healing springs. It must calculate all hp of all players inside the healing springs. Then take the 6 lowest and apply the heal to them. Without AOE caps, it could just apply it to everybody. So instead of having a call to the database to figure out who's in range, then calculating the six people who should receive it, then modifying their health data. You could remove aoe caps. And the function would be more like, everyone in area get health. And that function would just hit everybody in the area without the added calculations.

This matters, because it appears each area has its own processor of some sort for calculations. It seems ZoS has made some architectural change on their side recently to try to combat this. As way before, a server would lag in certain locations. Now when zergballs meet, you could be in northern high rock and still lag.

Either way, you are correct about the meta of deterring zergballs as a way to reduce the lag as well. But I believe there's some data calculation and data management lag that would be alleviated as well.

But what do I know, I'm just a silly developer and I only manage the ram and memory on phones for mobile apps.

I'm just an outsider's POV when it comes to stuff like this.

Don't care about buff servers. EP just isn't coordinated enough to take and hold one.

Or perhaps the current guild leadership in EP finds the concept abhorrent and refuses to attempt to perpetuate it? GoS failed to hold or retake Bow because they received no help, not because we didn't like GoS -- nothing but respect for them -- but because we dislike the idea vehemently.

Hijinx left Chillrend because we didn't want it to turn into a buff server, and went to help the server that needed it more. Alas, EG and NM had different ideas, and it is now a buff campaign.

Manoekin wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Komma wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

effinshiddy wrote: »

AoE should not be upped in any fashion. we started with unlimited and what happened? people left in droves form the insanity of small groups farming the *** out of 100 man armies.

the only people crying about the AoE caps are either new (to this game or MMOs in general) or are the ones who abused it so badly that no one wanted to play this pvp.

we are STILL plagued with problems of spammed 5-hit AoEs and the groups who melt people with it capped. we FINALLY just saw the end of the mindless bolt-stun sorcs that could level entire armies of foes. no game has ever successfully implemented unlimited AoE and been fun (and STAYED fun) in large scale pvp.

this issue needs to die already...but of course the heads of the big guilds are mostly the AP farmers who abuse these sort of tactics (coupled with oils, swarms, pulsars, etc) and they're the ones representing us?

it will be an absolute shame to see this game get catered to those people when the market and the longevity of the game is wildly more dependent on the casuals, part timers, and small guilded friend groups. i say this as a player IN a LARGE PvP guild who has been gaming in MMOs for more than 2 decades who spends almost every (sad) waking hour on this game atm. the restrictions are not breaking this game for anyone but a measly few and their removal will only allow these small powerful groups the ability to wipe others and farm AP faster. which sounds great from a nearsighted perspective but i'm still fighting to see this game last...

I'd say the people complaining about AoE caps mostly played DAOC, which had far superior PvP because it didn't have AoE Caps, and also the fact we saw not only Guild Wars 2 become complete crap because of Caps but this game has slowly devolved into a laggy mess because of the Caps.

Oh yea..If you're getting farmed with 100 people by the small groups..That's your own bloody fault for stacking up like baddies.

How do aoe caps cause lag? Its a serious question. I have always wondered that.

aoe caps = people group up into large groups because any attack can only hit 6 people, so it decreases your chance to get hit and allows you to heal through the damage easier. So it basically becomes big groups trying to aoe other big groups that are trying to aoe them, and that causes lag since the server has a hard time keeping up. Back before aoe caps entire zergs would get wiped out super quick by organized groups of even just 4 players. Certain emperors would be able to kill zergs by themselves with the emperor buffs. The quicker fights result in a lot less players on screen and casting spells.

That's just what I get from it.

I know everyone claims to be a programmer and have gotten a computer science degree, but I actually have and am...

Anyways, from what I can infer from my experience and what I can see. The lag is happening from the calculations when a lot of people are spamming spells in the same location.

For example, one cast of healing springs. It must calculate all hp of all players inside the healing springs. Then take the 6 lowest and apply the heal to them. Without AOE caps, it could just apply it to everybody. So instead of having a call to the database to figure out who's in range, then calculating the six people who should receive it, then modifying their health data. You could remove aoe caps. And the function would be more like, everyone in area get health. And that function would just hit everybody in the area without the added calculations.

This matters, because it appears each area has its own processor of some sort for calculations. It seems ZoS has made some architectural change on their side recently to try to combat this. As way before, a server would lag in certain locations. Now when zergballs meet, you could be in northern high rock and still lag.

Either way, you are correct about the meta of deterring zergballs as a way to reduce the lag as well. But I believe there's some data calculation and data management lag that would be alleviated as well.

But what do I know, I'm just a silly developer and I only manage the ram and memory on phones for mobile apps.

I'm just an outsider's POV when it comes to stuff like this.

Don't care about buff servers. EP just isn't coordinated enough to take and hold one.

Or perhaps the current guild leadership in EP finds the concept abhorrent and refuses to attempt to perpetuate it? GoS failed to hold or retake Bow because they received no help, not because we didn't like GoS -- nothing but respect for them -- but because we dislike the idea vehemently.

Hijinx left Chillrend because we didn't want it to turn into a buff server, and went to help the server that needed it more. Alas, EG and NM had different ideas, and it is now a buff campaign.

Yes, the faction without a buff server finds it appalling and just doesn't want the buffs because it isn't right. Come on man. Chillrend WAS the EP buff server, so I don't know what you're talking about. It used to pop lock before Thorn for EP until DC rolled in and smashed you guys. It's not an unfair advantage, it's an earned advantage.

Earned? Seriously? You call taking keeps on an empty server earning something?

Regardless, EP seems to be doing just fine without a buff server, so when they go away, its going to be funny...

Healing still capped at 6 with damage unlimited targets but damage will decrease with consecutive targetting. Hmm. If it gets rid of zerg trains then its fine with me.