You've just not thought this vampire/WW skill tree thing out.

CapuchinSeven · September 2014

I'm sure it's been said before but I'll say it again. This also isn't a vampire bashing thread, just pointing out there is no real alternative to putting points in vampire.

You've created these skill trees, where if you don't take one (vampire being the main powerful choice right now with WW one day being a possibility) in PVP and even to a degree in PVE you're doing it wrong.

It doesn't matter how good you are, how well you do without it, or how good your build is; it will benefit from taking points in vampire. Without vampire I already have around 1500 fire resist just to keep DK's off my back and the times I've taken vampire the fire damage just hasn't bothered me, that's before I even get to Purge or Dark Cloak removing fire damage.

For a build to be at its very best it just seems silly to not put points into the vampire tree, you move faster, you get away easier, you regenerate much better, there is just no real alternative if you don't want to be a vampire. Fighters Guild just doesn't really offer any passive alternative that helps a build in the same general way that a vampire does (to be fair there is no real passive benefit from the WW tree either).

I feel there should have been three trees in the game and you could only put points into one of them. Vampire, WW and something else; be that a better Fighters Guild or really something along the lines of Virtuous Blood or Dawnguard.

The point I'm making is there is no real choice to not becoming undead other than "I don't want to be undead", there are more than enough skill points for any end game build to not suffer from lack of other passives/skills, guards and towns treat you the same and the fire damage is mostly just a pain rather than a problem to anyone that knows how to make a decent build.

Sindala · September 2014

You say that like everything else has been thought out before implemented in game???

Itoq · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Without vampire I already have around 1500 fire resist just to keep DK's off my back and the times I've taken vampire the fire damage just hasn't bothered me, that's before I even get to Purge or Dark Cloak removing fire damage.
.

I recommend a bit o research on resists and fire damage vs vamps. Fire damage hurts vamps substantially more no matter what their specific resists, armor or spell resist.

Morduil · September 2014

I couldn't agree more, OP. It seems to me that the penalties for adopting either skill line, which can largely be overcome or compensated for, are not enough (besides which, I'm not generally in favour of penalising overmuch as a game mechanic). Some form of skill line that is only available to non-vamps and ww's seems a sensible solution.

Merlin13KAGL · September 2014

Itoq wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Without vampire I already have around 1500 fire resist just to keep DK's off my back and the times I've taken vampire the fire damage just hasn't bothered me, that's before I even get to Purge or Dark Cloak removing fire damage.
.

I recommend a bit o research on resists and fire damage vs vamps. Fire damage hurts vamps substantially more no matter what their specific resists, armor or spell resist.

@itoq , my favorite part was this:

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

For a build to be at its very best it just seems silly to not put points into the vampire tree, you move faster, you get away easier, you regenerate much better, there is just no real alternative if you don't want to be a vampire.

'Cause the health regen benefits are outstanding...?

Khami · September 2014

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Itoq wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Without vampire I already have around 1500 fire resist just to keep DK's off my back and the times I've taken vampire the fire damage just hasn't bothered me, that's before I even get to Purge or Dark Cloak removing fire damage.
.

I recommend a bit o research on resists and fire damage vs vamps. Fire damage hurts vamps substantially more no matter what their specific resists, armor or spell resist.

@itoq , my favorite part was this:

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

For a build to be at its very best it just seems silly to not put points into the vampire tree, you move faster, you get away easier, you regenerate much better, there is just no real alternative if you don't want to be a vampire.

'Cause the health regen benefits are outstanding...?

The health regen is so low, you have to wait for your health to regen before going into another battle. Mine health regen on my level 25 DK vamp is 6.

Phinix1 · September 2014

Care to back up that assumption and hyperbole with some numbers?

Fire damage DOES matter. Regen bonuses are NOT huge. It is NOT easier to get away when you have to be quite a ways away from combat already to stealth, and stealth speed is only marginally faster since they eliminated synergy with other stealth speed enhancing sets/skills due to whining.

So you move a little faster in stealth, get 10% more stamina and magicka recovery (big whoop) and a decent ultimate, at the cost of massive fire vulnerability and basically zero passive health regen.

I'm not really seeing this radical imbalance.

Tabbycat · September 2014

You shouldn't be forced into becoming a WW or a Vampire. If I don't want to be either, I shouldn't suffer because of it. The last thing I want to see in chat is "LFM, Vamp and WW only".

Phinix1 · September 2014

Tabbycat wrote: »

You shouldn't be forced into becoming a WW or a Vampire. If I don't want to be either, I shouldn't suffer because of it. The last thing I want to see in chat is "LFM, Vamp and WW only".

No one is forcing you to do anything. People have tried to explain their are downsides. The fact that you refuse to see them, and that the upsides are hardly overpowering, does not equate to being forced into something.

Soloeus · September 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

You shouldn't be forced into becoming a WW or a Vampire. If I don't want to be either, I shouldn't suffer because of it. The last thing I want to see in chat is "LFM, Vamp and WW only".

No one is forcing you to do anything. People have tried to explain their are downsides. The fact that you refuse to see them, and that the upsides are hardly overpowering, does not equate to being forced into something.

WW is weak.
Vamps are OP because Bat Swarm lets you use other abilities while active.

Normal is stronger imo than WW. As for vamp, it depends. If you PVP, then Vamps > Normal. If you PVE more, then Normal > Vamps.

Merlin13KAGL · September 2014

Khami wrote: »

The health regen is so low, you have to wait for your health to regen before going into another battle. Mine health regen on my level 25 DK vamp is 6.

@Khami , right. I don't even bother qualifying mine with a number - I just assume it's non-existant, unless the enemy will give me a 5 minute breather to catch up.

Makes +% HR passives/gear a joke. "Dude I get +10% on my 8 HR...that's like, still 8 HR..."

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Care to back up that assumption and hyperbole with some numbers?

Fire damage DOES matter. Regen bonuses are NOT huge. It is NOT easier to get away when you have to be quite a ways away from combat already to stealth, and stealth speed is only marginally faster since they eliminated synergy with other stealth speed enhancing sets/skills due to whining.

So you move a little faster in stealth, get 10% more stamina and magicka recovery (big whoop) and a decent ultimate, at the cost of massive fire vulnerability and basically zero passive health regen.

I'm not really seeing this radical imbalance.

@AlienDiplomat‌ , that's 'cause there isn't one - at least not in the direction everyone seems to think.

How about half the FG skill line which can hit like a truck and there is no Skill line counter for? That never seems to get mentioned in threads like these.

Tabbycat wrote: »

You shouldn't be forced into becoming a WW or a Vampire. If I don't want to be either, I shouldn't suffer because of it. The last thing I want to see in chat is "LFM, Vamp and WW only".

@Tabbycat , you're not, and you don't. These threads make it sound as if it's the only viable way to go, and it's not... There are plenty of 'normals' out there.

I don't think some people will be happy unless it's purged entirely. And that, is not going to happen.

If anything, I hope they expand the line later. There are benefits. There are downsides. It's about as evened out as it can be.

KenjiJU · September 2014

I do like that Dawnguard idea a lot OP. A third option that supplies more reliable counters. Vamps should fear something other than Vamps.

pppontus · September 2014

I got cured, best thing ever. Now enemies don't have 9% extra spell/wp damage against me, I don't get procced with silver shards, expert hunter. I don't die before I can even reach the purge button when faced with oil. DKs whip don't hit me for 700 through my 1550 fire resist. It's GLORIOUS! I was tired of farming clueless opponents with swarm anyway, no decent player would ever die of it.

eventide03b14a_ESO · September 2014

Tabbycat wrote: »

You shouldn't be forced into becoming a WW or a Vampire. If I don't want to be either, I shouldn't suffer because of it. The last thing I want to see in chat is "LFM, Vamp and WW only".

Has this honestly ever happened to you? I have never seen anyone asking for only a vampire or only a werewolf and I have never gotten a group just because I am a vampire. In fact certain zones you are at a distinct disadvantage due to fire damage. This is a completely unfounded fear.

eventide03b14a_ESO · September 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

You shouldn't be forced into becoming a WW or a Vampire. If I don't want to be either, I shouldn't suffer because of it. The last thing I want to see in chat is "LFM, Vamp and WW only".

No one is forcing you to do anything. People have tried to explain their are downsides. The fact that you refuse to see them, and that the upsides are hardly overpowering, does not equate to being forced into something.

WW is weak.
Vamps are OP because Bat Swarm lets you use other abilities while active.

Normal is stronger imo than WW. As for vamp, it depends. If you PVP, then Vamps > Normal. If you PVE more, then Normal > Vamps.

This answer is far too simple. Based on what you posted it's almost as though you have never played a vampire and are only retelling what you have heard.

MorHawk · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

You've created these skill trees, where if you don't take one (vampire being the main powerful choice right now with WW one day being a possibility) in PVP and even to a degree in PVE you're doing it wrong.

If only everyone in PvP had your attitude. Forget fire damage, Bow + Expert Hunter would be all kinds of fun.

Merlin13KAGL · September 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

Vamps are OP because Bat Swarm lets you use other abilities while active.

You're so right!

Because all of these ULT's just lock you in place:

DK Standard
DK Armor
NB Consuming Darkness
NB Soul Shred
Templar Sweep
Templar Nova
Sorcerer Negate
Sorcerer Atronach
FG Dawnguardbreaker
MG Meteor

Care to rethink that, @Soloeus‌ ?

Samadhi · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

...
For a build to be at its very best it just seems silly to not put points into the vampire tree, you move faster, you get away easier, you regenerate much better, there is just no real alternative if you don't want to be a vampire. ...

Can agree that Elusive Mist is a fantastic option for getting away from combat; in my time as a vampire it was always preferable to Shadow Cloak as a Nightblade.

Think that the regeneration seems so significant because of how players build for DPS.
Building for any DPS build, Stamina and Magicka recovery is significant, while Health Regen is basically an ignored stat due to lack of combat utility and the extreme prevalence of Resto staff/healing skils/heal over time skills in most serious player's skillsets.
Health Regen can be quite powerful on a tank build, but is otherwise not noteworthy.

Am presently testing a Heavy Armour build with 105 passive Health Regen stat...the bonus is noticeably significant for survivability, compared to running around as a Stage 4 vampire with 16 Health Regen on my DPS build.
Am also presently a Werewolf; too bad Werewolf does not have as notable gains. Synergizes well with a Stamina Tank build though.

CapuchinSeven · September 2014

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Itoq wrote: »

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Without vampire I already have around 1500 fire resist just to keep DK's off my back and the times I've taken vampire the fire damage just hasn't bothered me, that's before I even get to Purge or Dark Cloak removing fire damage.
.

I recommend a bit o research on resists and fire damage vs vamps. Fire damage hurts vamps substantially more no matter what their specific resists, armor or spell resist.

@itoq , my favorite part was this:

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

For a build to be at its very best it just seems silly to not put points into the vampire tree, you move faster, you get away easier, you regenerate much better, there is just no real alternative if you don't want to be a vampire.

'Cause the health regen benefits are outstanding...?

Why thank you for placing words in my mouth, words I didn't say. I will clarify for you both, and the replies that followed.

Magicka and Stamina regen is boosted. 10% is enough to put either of your stats in soft cap if they were not before, it's 10% you wouldn't have had otherwise. Not once did I mention health regen, you picked up on that because it was easier to defend your argument.

If you want to talk about health, lets talk about health. Undeath, damage mitigation increased when your health drops below 50% which increases more as your health drops lower. Given that my health regen in any of my builds sits at 50 my 10 heath regen as a vampire is nothing I can't live with, I'm happy with Undeath and a resto staff thanks. God knows if it's currently working to be fair, it wasn't last time I was a vamp. *Just checked, it is but not properly*

The only people fire damage is a worry for is bad players and that includes vamps and non-vamps. With fire resists and purge (both of which I run on a non-vamp build as much as I do on a vamp build) fire damage is not a problem and is slightly more annoying as a vampire.

In fact only @MorHawk‌ offers a point I agree with and that's Expert Hunter and @Samadhi‌ makes a far argument which shifts my view some, tanks are hindered but given the number of DK vamps I'm really not sure I'm totally buying that yet, but that's likely Green Dragon Blood making the downsides of vampire null.

Please note I'm not asking for nerfs; or insulting vampire players, it's just in my view I have yet to create a build that wasn't better off as a vampire, stamina and magic.

Soloeus · September 2014

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

Vamps are OP because Bat Swarm lets you use other abilities while active.

You're so right!

Because all of these ULT's just lock you in place:
DK Standard

DK Armor

NB Consuming Darkness

NB Soul Shred

Templar Sweep

Templar Nova

Sorcerer Negate

Sorcerer Atronach

FG Dawnguardbreaker

MG Meteor

Care to rethink that, @Soloeus‌ ?

Those ultimates all stand in one place, they don't heal the caster while causing massive dps to everything within a large radius.

Oh, and...

Standard - Stays in place.

DK Armor - Lasts a very short time.

NB Consuming Darkness - You should have said Veil of Blades, but likewise it stays in place.

Templar Sweep Very short range, one strike, one instance of damage.

Nova requires "Press X", short range, easy to move away from.

Negate Hits 6 targets, zergballs run through it, stays in place, deals no damage, can be broken with CC break.

Atronach stays in place, requires press x, can be killed easily.

Dawnbreaker Short range, wonky behavior when it comes to missing moving targets you are facing, and its directional. Oh, and Flawless Dawnbreaker is slotted for its damage bonus.

Meteor Single Target (can be bounced back with reflective scales), nearby targets within very short range, low damage, hits once.

Bat Swarm Directional. Heals while dealing insane damage to multiple targets. Follows the caster. While active, can use gap closers, leash, charge, dark talons, stuns, roll dodge to follow people. Invis pot, cloak, mistform, you can "trick" the bats invisible.

The "many other ultimates" have a build in regulator. Bat Swarm gives virtually "everything" without a penalty. If you could not use the other abilities with it active, it would be interesting; you would have a choice to make.

MorHawk · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

In fact only @MorHawk‌ offers a point I agree with

But yeah, I saw nothing in the OP about health regen being overpowered. Let's face it though, in most circumstances magicka > health. Heals amount to the same thing, and often more bang for your buck. The only reason I consider Orc's health regen valuable is because it's so ridiculously higher than any of the other racial regen bonuses.

Samadhi · September 2014

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

... and @Samadhi‌ makes a far argument which shifts my view some, tanks are hindered but given the number of DK vamps I'm really not sure I'm totally buying that yet, but that's likely Green Dragon Blood making the downsides of vampire null.
...

Just to clarify, would not even go so far as to say that tanks on the whole are hindered by vampire.
Just that vampire hinders one very specific type of tank build.
The Stamina Regen (for blocking) and health regeneration/stamina regeneration/ultimate generation from Invigorating Drain can enhance tanking capabilities on a number of builds.

Undeath also is quite beneficial on a Tank with particular builds.
Vampire has solid synergy on my Battle Mage/Magicka Tank Heavy build.

As for Green Dragon Blood, well, it does also heal for 30% of missing HP instantly, making it a powerful option even if the Health Regen portion does not have as dramatic of an effect for vampires. It also further pushes Stamina Regen while active, so it has merits in that regard as well.

And none of this even touches upon how powerful of a self-heal Devouring Swarm can serve as when specced properly.

robertlive2014 · September 2014

Yes, we all agree bat swarm is overpowered, but clearly it's the pet skill of someone important on the development team. Vampire culture is very compelling to teenagers, and the developers are a team that embodies teenage spirit and skill. I doubt bat swarm will ever be hit with the nerf bat like so many other once great skills.

Nox_Aeterna · September 2014

robertlive2014 wrote: »

Yes, we all agree bat swarm is overpowered, but clearly it's the pet skill of someone important on the development team. Vampire culture is very compelling to teenagers, and the developers are a team that embodies teenage spirit and skill. I doubt bat swarm will ever be hit with the nerf bat like so many other once great skills.

It is funny because people really seem to not understand the most obvious things.

Is Bat swarm "OP"(One can really contest this , there are other strong ults) when compared to other ults? Yes , BECAUSE IT IS MEANT TO BE.

It is not like nobody notices it is strong or anything lols.

When you become a vampire* you get a set of problems , something that doesnt happen for the other skill trees , therefore the skills on this tree are just strong than normal to make up for that.

It is that simple.

What will be the problem of being part of the dawnguard? Because if want a third line with powers that even come close to what the vampires and WW(if anything is broken atm) get , this tree will need to give you PROBLEMS of a similar magnitude also.

*Same with WW , but lets be quite honest here , the WW problems are nothing when compared to the vampire , everyone and their mothers got fire in this game , hell they made a class that pretty much tosses around fire 24/7. So be it PvP or PvE , you wont escape and doesnt matter if people yell until their faces get blue , you cant really fix this with fire resist gear.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · September 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

Vamps are OP because Bat Swarm lets you use other abilities while active.

You're so right!

Because all of these ULT's just lock you in place:
DK Standard

DK Armor

NB Consuming Darkness

NB Soul Shred

Templar Sweep

Templar Nova

Sorcerer Negate

Sorcerer Atronach

FG Dawnguardbreaker

MG Meteor

Care to rethink that, @Soloeus‌ ?

Those ultimates all stand in one place, they don't heal the caster while causing massive dps to everything within a large radius.

Oh, and...

Standard - Stays in place.

DK Armor - Lasts a very short time.

NB Consuming Darkness - You should have said Veil of Blades, but likewise it stays in place.

Templar Sweep Very short range, one strike, one instance of damage.

Nova requires "Press X", short range, easy to move away from.

Negate Hits 6 targets, zergballs run through it, stays in place, deals no damage, can be broken with CC break.

Atronach stays in place, requires press x, can be killed easily.

Dawnbreaker Short range, wonky behavior when it comes to missing moving targets you are facing, and its directional. Oh, and Flawless Dawnbreaker is slotted for its damage bonus.

Meteor Single Target (can be bounced back with reflective scales), nearby targets within very short range, low damage, hits once.

Bat Swarm Directional. Heals while dealing insane damage to multiple targets. Follows the caster. While active, can use gap closers, leash, charge, dark talons, stuns, roll dodge to follow people. Invis pot, cloak, mistform, you can "trick" the bats invisible.

The "many other ultimates" have a build in regulator. Bat Swarm gives virtually "everything" without a penalty. If you could not use the other abilities with it active, it would be interesting; you would have a choice to make.

So you put an insanely long winded pluses only for bat swarm but you only have negatives for every other ultimate. You should research the pros and cons of each ultimate and what each of them actually do then try again. Batswarm has cons too.

KenjiJU · September 2014

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

What will be the problem of being part of the dawnguard? Because if want a third line with powers that even come close to what the vampires and WW(if anything is broken atm) get , this tree will need to give you PROBLEMS of a similar magnitude also.
[/b]

If the Dawnguard's main focus was only reliably countering Vamps and WW, I don't see why they'd need a massive negative. They wouldn't have a massive advantage in anything otherwise.

Nox_Aeterna · September 2014

KenjiJU wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

What will be the problem of being part of the dawnguard? Because if want a third line with powers that even come close to what the vampires and WW(if anything is broken atm) get , this tree will need to give you PROBLEMS of a similar magnitude also.
[/b]

If the Dawnguard's main focus was only reliably countering Vamps and WW, I don't see why they'd need a massive negative. They wouldn't have a massive advantage in anything otherwise.

Really unlikely.

The fighters guild is meant to do this right now , gives you 0 problems and is there to deal with the vampires/WW. That is about the power one can expect of such tree.

There is no reason to believe at all you would get another tree , but this time much stronger , that gives almost no issues to the players made to kill undead/WW.

THAT would actually be the best option by far lols , small issues and you get a much easier time killing tons of players.

While true it is possible/likely for them to add a third , much more likely you will find another giant hole on the back of this tree , you might then hunt vampires/WW , but something else will hunt you.

CapuchinSeven · September 2014

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

While true it is possible/likely for them to add a third , much more likely you will find another giant hole on the back of this tree , you might then hunt vampires/WW , but something else will hunt you.

I think for me it's more that I only need to take FG skills if I want to kill vampires but as long as I don't mind carrying purge then there is next to zero down side to me taking vampire and the only reason not to is.. because I don't want to.. because pretty much every build I could make does better for it and if I still want to kill vampires I can take the FG skills anyway so... win win taking vampire...

Varicite · October 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

Those ultimates all stand in one place, they don't heal the caster while causing massive dps to everything within a large radius.

DK Armor - Lasts a very short time.

DK Armor lasts more than twice as long as bats... follows you while making you almost immune to damage while dealing damage to anyone around you, can use gap closers, etc.

Sounds pretty similar to me.

Can't help but notice you also conveniently didn't even mention Soul Tether which does decent damage, a long-lasting AoE stun, and drains health from an enemy for 8 seconds (also longer than Bat Swarm) while also allowing you to act freely for the duration.

Almost seems like you are conveniently ignoring any Ultimate that acts similarly to Bat Swarm to advance your "no, this is the problem" agenda.

ThisOnePosts · October 2014

This is so far from the truth OP. As one of the first Vamps that I know of out of my 5 guilds and many friends, there was a point where they felt OP yes. That is not the case. Their active abilities are close to useless in comparison with other things that could be slotted there. Sure NBs can cloak and feed in PVP making for a nice hold. Dark Stalker is "helpful" but no where near as helpful as is Green Dragon Blood for a DK with less than half health.

How do I know? Well my main is a NB, I have 2 VR14 chars and almost a third. I will ultimately have 1 of each class maxed out.

I've decided to cure Vampirism on my main and ever since I have done even BETTER than before. Sure I lose a few cool perks, however my survivability has gone through the roof. No FG skills to worry about in Cyrodiil.. in fact someone spamming them I don't have to target as priority in a battle, I can let them waste their stamina and make for a quick kill. Fire? PFFT. Now my fire resist, spell resist, and armor all go towards to surviving, MUCH, MUCH better --- not just PVP but PVE as well given so many enemies spam fire in this game.

I also have chars which are WWs and I still do have a Vamp char just not my main. I will ultimately keep at least 1 of each regardless of the path they go just to test them out with updates, etc..

The most powerful build in the game, does not include being a Vamp if you want a balance of survivability and dps to the point that you are in another league.

Phinix1 · October 2014

robertlive2014 wrote: »

Yes, we all agree bat swarm is overpowered...

No, we don't, and no, it isn't.

It is a unique and powerful ability, but the damage it does is hardly "massive" (somewhere around 2k over 6 seconds if you are derp enough to stand in the obvious visual effect the entire duration?)

Also, Nightblade Soul Tether does an AOE stun AND a powerful and longer (than bats) lasting life drain which also moves with the player and has a longer range.

All these arguments seem to be less about Bat Swarm being OP, and more about it being UNIQUE. I would agree, it is unique. However, being unique does NOT makes it broken or OP!

It would be like calling Soul Tether OP for being the highest damage single-target ultimate, and for examples, siting the fact that it is single target.

There are plenty of ways to counter both, and not all ultimates need to be cookie-cutter copies for the game to be balanced.

Don't stand in the fire. Don't stand in the bats.

ESO Raiding and PVP 101.