PVP Discussion with Brian Wheeler During Friday's ESO Live Twitch Stream

themdogesbite · September 2014

DDuke wrote: »

Putting oil pots down everywhere isn't a good solution for zergballs, and how does placing one down on the ground make any sense?...

Removing AE caps would be a really good solution however. One or two well-timed meteors could destroy zergs if they were too stacked.

If they were to remove AE caps before changing how oil works, that would create a whole another problem...

If i recall correctly, oils have no AoE cap.

Also changing oil the way it is suggested is not the way to go imo, it will only promote more stacking, blobbing and abuse of AoE caps. Oil is one of the few ways a smaller group can deal with a bigger sized group.

Monsoon · September 2014

What will be talked about: Color of keeps, size of scrolls, UI of the map, size and sounds of Sieges, placement of trees on the map, weather effects

What will NOT be addressed: Lag, Zerg balls spamming AOEs lagging the server, imbalances in populations, sieges disapearing during lag, AP not being properly distributed, crashes, spam aoes, AOE caps, invulenarbility exploits, shield exploits, players taking zero damages, invisible batswarms, camp trolling, 80% reduction in number of mail rewards since last patch, full week of constant crashes NOT warranting time refunds and people who somehow are able to survive two oil pots and a full stealthed bow to the face

Dreyloch · September 2014

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be clear, the PvP team covers Cyrodiil, campaigns, and the systems that govern how those function - not the player-to-player combat, classes, and mechanics.

Also, you can view the first show here, and we do plan to archive today's show as well.

OMFG seriously? How the H E double hockey sticks do you have a PvP DEV that has nothing to do with how the player to player combat works? This answers a huge amount of questions right there. That should be his TOP FREAKIN PRIORITY!! /laughing in disbelief, it's called PLAYER VS PLAYER. Not Siege and Governing playfield mechanics! What is wrong with you people?

My Gawd you guys really have no clue. Just none. The player combat comes first. Then the field and mechanics in which it's done. Not the other way around. I think just about anyone in this forum would agree. Sometimes the amount of incompetence this company shows is astounding.

Davadin · September 2014

Monsoon wrote: »

What will be talked about: Color of keeps, size of scrolls, UI of the map, size and sounds of Sieges, placement of trees on the map, weather effects

What will NOT be addressed: Lag, Zerg balls spamming AOEs lagging the server, imbalances in populations, sieges disapearing during lag, AP not being properly distributed, crashes, spam aoes, AOE caps, invulenarbility exploits, shield exploits, players taking zero damages, invisible batswarms, camp trolling, 80% reduction in number of mail rewards since last patch, full week of constant crashes NOT warranting time refunds and people who somehow are able to survive two oil pots and a full stealthed bow to the face

LOL i'm just quoting this again for the LOLZ

demonlkojipub19_ESO · September 2014

A lot of siege is made irrelevant by the purge skil. Imo almost all of the allance war skills greatly enhance zerg combat. Id say warhorn, caltrops and siege shield are the only 3 not breaking pvp. Warhorn because it is a simple resource buff, caltrops because the damage is low enough to just serve as a snare, and sige shield because it doesnt reduce a lot of damage and not from all sources.

They may cost a lot of resource, but purge especually is what along with aoe caps is making zerging op. Without it, meatball catas and oils would be more feared, but instead you have purge spamming. More with efficient, healing with cleanse.

Barrier is iffy, since it effects so many party members, which overpowers the current aoe cap. Being able to stack this with other shields especially harness magica amplify its overpowerdness

Maneuvers isnt needed. Scroll runs and movements to assault or defense can be done without it, and only 1 of its morphs is even worthwhile.

I think combat momentum is the only trait that should exsist for alliance war. The rest empowers players too much especially with ultimate generation.

I think dealing with these (and impulse) would be a major step in making alliance war more enjoyable.

Talcyndl · September 2014

DDuke wrote: »

Putting oil pots down everywhere isn't a good solution for zergballs

But since they are not going to remove the AoE caps (if anything, they are applying them to more and more skills), oil is (soon to be was) one of the few effective counters in tight spaces. Catapults and ballistas work as well, but have limited use in a lot of areas - as Agrippa points out.

Yes, pouring oil is kinda cheesy and unrealistic. But it was an important counter to zergs.

I'm not sure why ZOS doesn't quite understand how zerg tactics are breaking Cyrodiil.

R0M2K · September 2014

Oil pots are fine...

Please centrate the efforts on the Blobs, lag, crashes, rewRds, objectives.

darkdruidssb14_ESO · September 2014

Talcyndl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Putting oil pots down everywhere isn't a good solution for zergballs

But since they are not going to remove the AoE caps (if anything, they are applying them to more and more skills), oil is (soon to be was) one of the few effective counters in tight spaces. Catapults and ballistas work as well, but have limited use in a lot of areas - as Agrippa points out.

Yes, pouring oil is kinda cheesy and unrealistic. But it was an important counter to zergs.

I'm not sure why ZOS doesn't quite understand how zerg tactics are breaking Cyrodiil.

Serious question for you... Your argument is that small groups will be less likely to defend keeps. The oil change is probably coming either way. Assuming you didn't have AoE caps with the oil change in.... How would a small group be able to kill a zerg?

Sure you could drop your ultimates and the zerg would be hit by it.. but with purge and barrier.. do you really think you would stand a chance?

Whatever you can do, they can do with greater numbers.

timidobserver · September 2014

Bramir wrote: »

LOL...so if the PvP team doesn't cover player to player combat...who does? Isn't that exactly what a PvP team is supposed to do? If the PvE devs are in charge of PvP class/skill balance, that actually explains why a lot of the really stupid stuff just isn't getting addressed.

As much as I love many things about this game, I am going to have to reconsider my sub, since PvP is my endgame and it is like a car with three wheels with a brick on the gas pedal and a cliff a couple miles ahead.

Who does? Probably the player to player combat team. Division of responsibilities is how IT works. One team cant manage everything.

synnerman · September 2014

The combat team started looking at the AoE issue according to Brian Wheeler almost 6 weeks ago so that's nothing new. The oil is just farcical until the blobbing/impulse grps are sorted.

Once again issues not thought out and we suffer, see what happens Mr Wheeler ...soon you wont have to bother because we will all end up unsubbing.

eliisra · September 2014

Talcyndl wrote: »

But since they are not going to remove the AoE caps (if anything, they are applying them to more and more skills), oil is (soon to be was) one of the few effective counters in tight spaces. Catapults and ballistas work as well, but have limited use in a lot of areas - as Agrippa points out.

Yes, pouring oil is kinda cheesy and unrealistic. But it was an important counter to zergs.

I'm not sure why ZOS doesn't quite understand how zerg tactics are breaking Cyrodiil.

While I do agree, it's still not going to make a huge difference versus the blob (or who ever brought their entire faction to the keep). We still cant kill or stop a horde of players stacking on 2 flags simultaneously while spamming PBAoE, filling both floors with fire, lighting and bats. Not with today's oil. Not with today's limited targets.

One meatbag(because there's rarely space for more) and 4-6 oils, many Negates, ranged nukes from above and nothing happens. No one's health is going down. All the shield stacking, purging and healing counters it. Than there's the fact that Purge doesn't have a target cap. Very convenient.

ThyIronFist · September 2014

I really hope this stream will actually tell us something about the PvP future of this game, and while chances are slim, I hope they get rid of the AoE caps and mindless AoE spam, zerg balling, tweaking forw. Forward camps pretty much means that the only place where fighting is happening, is inside and sometimes around keeps. The rest of Cyrodiil is empty. A pity, truly.

And please, we all like to see the Imperial city as soon as possible... BUT, please fix and polish the current game first.

I'm looking forward to this stream, hopefully it won't be disappointing, otherwise it will be a one-way ticket back to good old WoW.

Agrippa_Invisus · September 2014

synnerman wrote: »

The combat team started looking at the AoE issue according to Brian Wheeler almost 6 weeks ago so that's nothing new. The oil is just farcical until the blobbing/impulse grps are sorted.

Once again issues not thought out and we suffer, see what happens Mr Wheeler ...soon you wont have to bother because we will all end up unsubbing.

In six months, what will have the bigger sub base? ESO or DAoC?

Xsorus · September 2014

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Oil pot mechanics the PVP team covers and can be commented on in the Alliance War section of the forums or in this thread if you want.

Let me see if I can understand this correctly.

Despite the fact that Zerg Balls which are directly caused by AoE caps are absolutely screwing this game over right now...You've decided to go ahead and nerf the one method in this game that can actually kill or stop them?

Seriously? I mean..it takes all by 10 minutes of playing to see how bad that idea is...

Kypho · September 2014

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

synnerman wrote: »

The combat team started looking at the AoE issue according to Brian Wheeler almost 6 weeks ago so that's nothing new. The oil is just farcical until the blobbing/impulse grps are sorted.

Once again issues not thought out and we suffer, see what happens Mr Wheeler ...soon you wont have to bother because we will all end up unsubbing.

In six months, what will have the bigger sub base? ESO or DAoC?

only the swarm+aoe spammers will remain, they like that BS. so.... But hey! PvE maybe fine so ESO can have good sub base. the FG OPlars still crying for stuff but they are PvE heroes (lol) and they dont care how broken/op they are in PvP.

Draxys · September 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Without it, meatball catas and oils would be more feared

They wouldn't just be feared, there wouldn't be anything stopping those things from wiping a group. Everything needs a counter.

Xsorus · September 2014

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

synnerman wrote: »

The combat team started looking at the AoE issue according to Brian Wheeler almost 6 weeks ago so that's nothing new. The oil is just farcical until the blobbing/impulse grps are sorted.

Once again issues not thought out and we suffer, see what happens Mr Wheeler ...soon you wont have to bother because we will all end up unsubbing.

In six months, what will have the bigger sub base? ESO or DAoC?

I'm seriously considering playing the WoW expansion in November after reading this latest post..Yes the PvP is awful but i mine as well just PvE it up in that game till CU comes out.

Davadin · September 2014

So,

Draxys wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Without it, meatball catas and oils would be more feared

They wouldn't just be feared, there wouldn't be anything stopping those things from wiping a group. Everything needs a counter.

...if AoE cap's the answer, what's going to counter a single DK snaring and flaming 20+ people in a choke point?

Zergballs?

I smell a bit of catch 22 here...

demonlkojipub19_ESO · September 2014

Draxys wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Without it, meatball catas and oils would be more feared

They wouldn't just be feared, there wouldn't be anything stopping those things from wiping a group. Everything needs a counter.

Except not getting hit by it by paying attention to your surroundings. If anything the duration of thr healing debuff can be made to match the 3 tic dot you get, and/or not as big of a healing debuff possibly brought to the level of disease enchant debuff or similar. Be better than having ig made irellevant.

Columba · September 2014

Honestly, oil pots are the least of my problem in pvp. Annoying but easily countered. Blatant cheating, impulse spamming zergs and server crashes are infinitely more important. Priorities, guys.

Huntler · September 2014

Columba wrote: »

Honestly, oil pots are the least of my problem in pvp. Annoying but easily countered. Blatant People I think are cheating, impulse spamming zergs and server crashes are infinitely more important. Priorities, guys.

Fixed

WRX · September 2014

@ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ @ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Im going to personally beg and plead that adding a drop requirement to oil does not happen.I understand its not "realistic" that you can oil your own feet, but neither is anything else in this game.

Oil is the most strategically significant option in this game when it come to defending keeps and stopping numbers much larger than yours. And even with it, the largest of groups can simply ignore them, purge, and heal. However, when the lag gets to a certain point and none of our abilities register, we also lose the ability to use siege. You can place siege, but it cant be used. Rams are the only exception, but the ram cant be oiled, and you cant kill the people off the ram (Decibel have had to do this as well). At this point it just turns into a straight numbers battle and who can keep the flags flipped.

Oils are completely fine at this point. Avoiding them in open field is simple. Organized groups know how to take the Apse with ease as well. If at some point you are completely overwhelmed, no amount of oils can save you anyways. This seems balanced to me.

The way oils work right now is one of the only balancing things in this game. Please consider other changes, but this is one change that does not need to be made.

WRX · September 2014

dsoegiartob16_ESO wrote: »

So,

Draxys wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Without it, meatball catas and oils would be more feared

They wouldn't just be feared, there wouldn't be anything stopping those things from wiping a group. Everything needs a counter.

...if AoE cap's the answer, what's going to counter a single DK snaring and flaming 20+ people in a choke point?

Zergballs?

I smell a bit of catch 22 here...

This is why they have AoE caps. AoE caps were brought about when 3 people with bats could wipe everyone. They were not killable. The AoE cap is actually fine. Perhaps increase it a bit (7-8), but don't just get rid of it.

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Without it, meatball catas and oils would be more feared

They wouldn't just be feared, there wouldn't be anything stopping those things from wiping a group. Everything needs a counter.

Except not getting hit by it by paying attention to your surroundings. If anything the duration of thr healing debuff can be made to match the 3 tic dot you get, and/or not as big of a healing debuff possibly brought to the level of disease enchant debuff or similar. Be better than having ig made irellevant.

Meatbags are the furthest thing from irrelevant and are the 2nd strongest siege. Snare + decent damage + HUGE healing debuff. Meat catas are fine.

Ifthir_ESO · September 2014

So basically the problem with PvP fixes is that the team that wants to do them (PvP team) isn't the team who would actually make the changes (per Gina's post). And Mr. Wheeler doesn't have enough juice to make the dev team prioritize PvP?

So this boils down to @ZOS_MattFiror‌ and @ZOS_PaulSage‌ that need to have the development team prioritize PvP because @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ can't make dev fix this stuff and prioritize it over Console.

This is my take.

FluffiestOne · September 2014

#FIXPVP

Talcyndl · September 2014

darkdruidssb14_ESO wrote: »

How would a small group be able to kill a zerg?

Not sure if you PvP'd before the change, but small groups were able to kill larger zergs. Ultimates, AoE abilties, heals, and friendly buffs could keep a skilled (smaller) group alive to kill larger, less organized groups.

Basically, for keep defense oil pots on the flags has taken the place of that. With the announced oil change, it looks like zergs will be even more powerful/unstoppable.

Ezareth · September 2014

I've never considered oilpots all that effective. Maybe now more people will use some meat.

Xsorus · September 2014

Well that was not surprisingly disappointing to watch.

themdogesbite · September 2014

And after that "interview" the second half of my friendlist unsubbed.

ThyIronFist · September 2014

Absolutely pathetic that was. Back to WoW it is, this game will be over. At least the PvP will... such a pity.