Mist Form, BATS, Mist Form, GG.

Chubbaz · September 2014

Noonelse has complained about this broken combo?

I know DC sucks at PvP but flipping hell, one player (Who i can't name due to rules) went into mist form WHILE his LOLBATSWARM ultimate was active and proceeded to take out 15+ people in a matter of seconds.

I'm not sure if Zeni is smoking the funny stuff but how in all hell is this balanced? I know there are counters to Vampires but when there's crap like this going on how can you say DK's are OP?

EDIT: I forgot to mention straight after his ult ran out, he went back into Mist Form to escape damage. You cry about Bolt Escape but not this?

dan958 · September 2014

Bat swarm is pretty easy to escape from, just roll away. The only issue with them using mist form is that you can't roll away and then shoot them with a bow.

Chubbaz · September 2014

dan958 wrote: »

Bat swarm is pretty easy to escape from, just roll away. The only issue with them using mist form is that you can't roll away and then shoot them with a bow.

I agree with you it is easy to avoid but during their ult they can use MF to escape damage and as soon as it's up they can use it again to get away. Sorcs can do this with Bolt Escape too.

AreoHotah · September 2014

If update 5 is not a real pvp imrovement i'm unsubing. Enough with the PvE grinding content. EVERYONE IS PLAYING CRAGLORN JUST TO BECOME MORE POWERFULL IN PVP.

(caps lock intended)

Garion · September 2014

It's kind of like this forum - QQ, nerf, QQ, nerf. GG.

These are skills with intended mechanics and intended damage output that people have chained together to be effective in PvP. The same could be said for a number of other skill combinations, either from individual players or well coordinated small scale groups. The trick is not to complain about it's power (anyone can do this if they get vamp, it's not as if it is 'unfair') but realise what can be done to counter it and trust me, there are ways to counter it. An entire skill line dedicated to fighting undead? Check. Numerous hard and soft CC options to stop Batswarmer in his tracks? Check. Dodge and block mechanics? Check.

I would encourage everyone to think before posting. There are too many cries of 'OP' when this apparent 'insight' on the current state of the game should be turned inwards and focussed on one's own abilities. Perhaps then people would start to develop strategies to counter certain combinations of skills that everyone assumes are OP.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · September 2014

Garion wrote: »

An entire skill line dedicated to fighting undead? Check.
Numerous hard and soft CC options to stop Batswarmer in his tracks? Check. Dodge and block mechanics? Check.

a) FG requires Stamina build and is completely pathetic against players to boot. On balanced or Magicka build provides almost negligible damage and no utility, while burning Stamina that is very valuable.

The only useful ability is the silver bolts/leash but CC can be broken, and 5% chance is too low to deter any Undead. To make it useful needs the proc at 20%.

If Turn Undead was GTAE like Volcanic Rune or Blazing Spear then it could be useful, but is not, and is resisted. I have yet to see any undead player run in fear from it.
Cammo hunter, is for archers shooting from stealth or NBs.

b) There is NONE. Invulnerability breaks every CC. Mistform -> (talons) -> Bat -> Mistform or potion. Usually by that time the Bat has charged and drops again.
Also the Batswarm follows the Vampire where ever when moved. And we need 5 part Medium armour and stamina build to be able dodge it if you get chased. Usually stamina is enough for 2-3 dodges. IF you have full stamina

c) Block doesn't work that well against Batswam. As for dodge, if someone doesn't wear 4-5 medium armour parts, is usually on the last drops most of the time can can use it once.

You ask for others to think, however you haven't think yourself.
There is not 1 vs 1 battle out there. Vampires are pretty powerful and they sacrifice nothing. While their setup is pretty generic working on everything and anything, you beat them you need a very specific and narrow setup, that is completely useless outside that scope.

Given the broken mechanics of Invulnerability from one side, and root-dodge on the other side, it gets to people that the whole thing is overpowered.
Until those issues are assessed, Vampires are going to still be annoying.

pppontus · September 2014

But seriously, HOW can you take that much damage from Bat Swarm? You don't even need to dodge, just run away. If you can't deal with that damage 250 per sec from an ultimate (for 6 seconds) - how do you deal with the dots I place on you that does 150 per second and can be kept up indefinitely (from range) while I spam you with other instant damage abilities that aren't even ultimates?

Sure it sucks when 3 vamps run into you and drop coordinated swarms, but guess what.. they will hurt like hell with any other ultimate too. They might as well drop 3 novas on your ass, it's just the vamp population is high because people are too stupid to counter them and move out.

^This from someone who has cured vampirism on all characters, because the skill line is practically useless for anything other than farming completely clueless players. (except stealth move speed, but that's not worth 50% extra fire dmg)

Mojomonkeyman · September 2014

How is said player regenerating ult, if he is using MF right away? Do you hand it to him with standing as close as possible to make sure he just has to throw talons once?

How comes there has never been a single good player that complained about vampires? Not a single decent player.

I recently dropped vamp and you know what? I`m so much stronger right now, so much more sustain. Vamp is so overrated because of scrubs not finding the right buttons or going all amok not watching their surrounding...

Father · September 2014

I usually use the skill "turn undead" for bat swarmers.. its a good counter and I don't need to run... but ya bat swarm is OP even though it was less of a problem for me cause I sneak and hit my targets from distance. I use it alot hehe

seneferab16_ESO · September 2014

pppontus wrote: »

But seriously, HOW can you take that much damage from Bat Swarm? You don't even need to dodge, just run away. If you can't deal with that damage 250 per sec from an ultimate (for 6 seconds)

It's the combination of cheap cost (vamp stage 4), being near untargetable, mobile, AND able to cast other spells during it's duration that makes this Ultimate over the top. If it rooted the caster or disabled other spells or much more expensive, I don't think people would have any problems with it as it would be more in line with the other Ultimates out there.

See this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/127610/bat-swarm-should-disable-other-attacks-while-active

Darthryan · September 2014

I'm a nb and this doesn't bother me. I'll hold block or just move out of the way. I rarely die from bats unless I just got cc'ed and am low on health. No nerf needed. I can run this too but its not very successful. Just hold block or run away.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · September 2014

If I'm fighting with a vampire using his ulti, I
a) cc them (talons), also works against mist form, and get away from them if needed
b) if they are not in mist form, i use TAB to mark them; this way I don't loose track when they mist away (and: not sure, but you used to be able to hit them with targeted skills this way, iirc)
c) kill them as soon as their ulti runs out; a lot of vampires are sort of an one trick pony and don't know what to do when it doesn't work

If they engage a zerg I happen to be in, they are easily aoe'd to death; sadly, many public groups don't have a clue, so they deserve to die imo.

And as some other guy here said, I dropped it as well because I don't have use for a single vampire skill on my dk and I'm doing much better now, as I don't try to rely on a single skill.

bertenburnyb16_ESO · September 2014

its funny how people complained about standard being so OP, just move out of it, its stationary, batswarm on the other hand is not so simple because A 99% of the time its not visible or barely with all the other stuf goind on in big fights and lagg, and B it moves with the player and your crippled, sure dodge roll, if you have some stam left, and use silver shards, again, if you have some stam left (but well thats the whole stamina used for skills and dodge/ccbreak issue)

reften · September 2014

So instead of finding a combo you can use, you complain about combos others use.

Just like real life, you can have the biggest house by building the biggest house...or by building an average house and knocking everyone else's down.

This [snip] society...go play the original version of EQ and talk about rough gameplay. Gimmie gimmie gimmie, I suck, so make me better.

Nobody wants to figure things out on their own.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

pppontus · September 2014

seneferab16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

But seriously, HOW can you take that much damage from Bat Swarm? You don't even need to dodge, just run away. If you can't deal with that damage 250 per sec from an ultimate (for 6 seconds)

It's the combination of cheap cost (vamp stage 4), being near untargetable, mobile, AND able to cast other spells during it's duration that makes this Ultimate over the top. If it rooted the caster or disabled other spells or much more expensive, I don't think people would have any problems with it as it would be more in line with the other Ultimates out there.

See this thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/127610/bat-swarm-should-disable-other-attacks-while-active

No, see the reason it isn't over the top is because it's not that good. It does not do that much damage, no matter what you say. ~1500 damage is all you can take from a batswarm even if you decide (for some weird reason) to stay in it. It was OP when it did 3k damage, it is not now. Compare it to the level of stupidity of staying in an enemy veil for 17 seconds: 3400 damage. That one has many other great effects and synergies, but in turn it's slightly easier to avoid. If someone uses their ultimate ability you should reasonably expect to take 1k of damage.. why else call it ultimate? Sure, you can debate cost and cost reductions, but still it is not even close to as bad as people here make it out to be.

seneferab16_ESO · September 2014

pppontus wrote: »

No, see the reason it isn't over the top is because it's not that good. It does not do that much damage, no matter what you say. ~1500 damage is all you can take from a batswarm even if you decide (for some weird reason) to stay in it. It was OP when it did 3k damage, it is not now. Compare it to the level of stupidity of staying in an enemy veil for 17 seconds: 3400 damage. That one has many other great effects and synergies, but in turn it's slightly easier to avoid. If someone uses their ultimate ability you should reasonably expect to take 1k of damage.. why else call it ultimate? Sure, you can debate cost and cost reductions, but still it is not even close to as bad as people here make it out to be.

You're right, it is not as bad as people make it out to be and anyone with a brain know how to counter it one way or the other. My personal preference is Mass Hysteria (NB fear) or Turn Undead.

I very rarely die to it, and find most people who use it as clueless as most people being exposed to it. However, I am sticking to what I said before about it needing balancing. In the hands of a decent player Bat Swarm can be cast very quickly after it runs out, which means another 6 seconds of near invulnerability while being mobile AND dishing out PBAoE damage.
It's not the bat swarm that kills, it is the PBAoE that follows. Bat swarm damage is only there as icing on the cake.

Compare to banners and veil, which are potent but balanced by the fact that they are staying put. Bat swarm should too.

Kypho · September 2014

just swarm+pulsar x 10, done.
roll roll roll.....damn still doing dmg... roll roll... ahh lolzos.

Heethcliff · September 2014

Chubbaz-

Let's keep in mind that this is an ultimate skill and therefore needs to be strong or it loses its value as an ult. If anything is overpowered about Batswarm it's simply this- its a very low cost ultimate, too low. And second, because its so low of a cost, and aoe damage grants you much more ultimate regen, you can practically keep Batswarm up indefinitely because it IS an aoe.

Fighters guild skill are you best bet at dealing with vamps, but its true this is more in line with Stamina builds. Magika builds best chance is to go fire, but even that isn't as strong as FG skills in general (especially if they have fire resist or happen to be a darkelf).

If you are a Stam build, I recommend Camo Hunter (Expert Hunter morph) over Silver Bolts. Amazing when combined with the bow and pretty good with both weapon attacks and other weapon skill lines.

pppontus · September 2014

seneferab16_ESO wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

No, see the reason it isn't over the top is because it's not that good. It does not do that much damage, no matter what you say. ~1500 damage is all you can take from a batswarm even if you decide (for some weird reason) to stay in it. It was OP when it did 3k damage, it is not now. Compare it to the level of stupidity of staying in an enemy veil for 17 seconds: 3400 damage. That one has many other great effects and synergies, but in turn it's slightly easier to avoid. If someone uses their ultimate ability you should reasonably expect to take 1k of damage.. why else call it ultimate? Sure, you can debate cost and cost reductions, but still it is not even close to as bad as people here make it out to be.

You're right, it is not as bad as people make it out to be and anyone with a brain know how to counter it one way or the other. My personal preference is Mass Hysteria (NB fear) or Turn Undead.

I very rarely die to it, and find most people who use it as clueless as most people being exposed to it. However, I am sticking to what I said before about it needing balancing. In the hands of a decent player Bat Swarm can be cast very quickly after it runs out, which means another 6 seconds of near invulnerability while being mobile AND dishing out PBAoE damage.
It's not the bat swarm that kills, it is the PBAoE that follows. Bat swarm damage is only there as icing on the cake.

Compare to banners and veil, which are potent but balanced by the fact that they are staying put. Bat swarm should too.

I do agree with you to a certain extent, but I think the fault is more in ultimate generation than any single ultimate. I know exactly what you're saying because I run one of these builds (NB Siphoning/Sap Essence) on one of my bars, for survivability with Veil - but sure as a vamp you can use it offensively with Clouding and dish out a nasty amount of damage.

I do however think that the only thing that needs balancing there is the AOE ultimate generation. I can fill up a clouding swarm with maybe 6-8 attacks if I have enough enemies around me, and that is not OK. But then again I don't think that I should be able to effortlessly use any other ultimate over and over again either.

My personal favorite was something I used to do as a vamp:

1. Rush into crowd
2. Drop Veil of Blades
3. Spam Sap Essence while 10 people are trying to punch me to death
4. Swap bars and drop Devouring Swarm
5. Watch Kill Enemy Players go from 0 to 10

Now the conclusion.. first of all, those players were indeed very bad, they should not have stayed in my veil.. I guess they thought they would wipe me quick with superior numbers, but I shouldn't have been able to use the swarm with 10 seconds remaining on my veil of blades either.

So it's both a balancing change (ultimate) but most of all (sorry) it's a L2P thing, no sane group would stay stacked on a Sap Essence+Veil NB. Or be without healing for that matter.

akray21 · September 2014

Cry threads need to stop. Bat Swarm is not OP, it is the 3rd best ultimate in the game, possibly 4th (DK Standard and VoB are by far better) . BS is an ultimate and should be powerful. And for Mist Form... it is the 3rd best escape ability (BE and Dark Cloak are superior). These are not OP...

Kypho · September 2014

akray21 wrote: »

Cry threads need to stop. Bat Swarm is not OP, it is the 3rd best ultimate in the game, possibly 4th (DK Standard and VoB are by far better) . BS is an ultimate and should be powerful. And for Mist Form... it is the 3rd best escape ability (BE and Dark Cloak are superior). These are not OP...

QQ vamp lawl... it IS the best ulti.
You dont need to defend your BS because it wont be changed, you wont lose your OP crap. Its the best combined with aoe spamming, and thats the ulti what following the lolvamp around doing dmg and can even heal.
We all know that zos dont give a ... and they just love AOE spamming and lolvamps.

PS.: finally all non vamp will leave pvp, or they keep their nonvampirism and live with disadvantage, or well... getting a bite, so not only the 90% of the pvp pop will be vamp, and using the same crap swarm+aoe, all will use that. PvP will be 100% full of zombie swarmers

Kypho · September 2014

"1. Rush into crowd
2. Drop Veil of Blades
3. Spam Sap Essence while 10 people are trying to punch me to death
4. Swap bars and drop Devouring Swarm
5. Watch Kill Enemy Players go from 0 to 10

Now the conclusion.. first of all, those players were indeed very bad, they should not have stayed in my veil.. I guess they thought they would wipe me quick with superior numbers, but I shouldn't have been able to use the swarm with 10 seconds remaining on my veil of blades either.

So it's both a balancing change (ultimate) but most of all (sorry) it's a L2P thing, no sane group would stay stacked on a Sap Essence+Veil NB. Or be without healing for that matter."

Make VoB follow you and make you invisible, so it will be not OP like swarm. Make all ulti do that and all should tick dmg for the duration.

Mojomonkeyman · September 2014

Kypho wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

Cry threads need to stop. Bat Swarm is not OP, it is the 3rd best ultimate in the game, possibly 4th (DK Standard and VoB are by far better) . BS is an ultimate and should be powerful. And for Mist Form... it is the 3rd best escape ability (BE and Dark Cloak are superior). These are not OP...

QQ vamp lawl... it IS the best ulti.
You dont need to defend your BS because it wont be changed, you wont lose your OP crap. Its the best combined with aoe spamming, and thats the ulti what following the lolvamp around doing dmg and can even heal.
We all know that zos dont give a ... and they just love AOE spamming and lolvamps.

PS.: finally all non vamp will leave pvp, or they keep their nonvampirism and live with disadvantage, or well... getting a bite, so not only the 90% of the pvp pop will be vamp, and using the same crap swarm+aoe, all will use that. PvP will be 100% full of zombie swarmers

You are clueless. Storm Atronarch is one of the best ultimates by far. I`m no vampire and Storm Atronarch does everything Batswarm did for me, with a nasty ae stun, also very nasty single target stun, 500+ ae damage initially plus pulse for equal damage and a npc with the health of a fortress.

Ah yeah, try dropping one of those on a batswarmer, you`ll have a good laugh.

Are people ever thinking outside of the box?

pppontus · September 2014

Kypho wrote: »

"1. Rush into crowd
2. Drop Veil of Blades
3. Spam Sap Essence while 10 people are trying to punch me to death
4. Swap bars and drop Devouring Swarm
5. Watch Kill Enemy Players go from 0 to 10

Now the conclusion.. first of all, those players were indeed very bad, they should not have stayed in my veil.. I guess they thought they would wipe me quick with superior numbers, but I shouldn't have been able to use the swarm with 10 seconds remaining on my veil of blades either.

So it's both a balancing change (ultimate) but most of all (sorry) it's a L2P thing, no sane group would stay stacked on a Sap Essence+Veil NB. Or be without healing for that matter."

Make VoB follow you and make you invisible, so it will be not OP like swarm. Make all ulti do that and all should tick dmg for the duration.

You clearly need a hug. Does swarm give 60% reduction on all incoming damage, and a 70% snare?

I won't argue any more than that because, sorry, you just need to learn but I can already see you'll never accept that. I have cured my vampirism, I still PvP.

BAT SWARM IS USELESS against every single person who has any clue whatsoever and I got bored of farming stupid people.

Unless you plan on farming players who can't play, vampirism is not worth it. Seriously though, I encourage you to go try it out - you'll soon see that it isn't what you thought it was.

*Remember: I am no longer vamp on any of my characters, so no, I have no use for Bat Swarm but I am still defending it. Why? Because people like you will complain about every single skill that kills them until there is nothing left to do in this game. Because you'll never accept that the issue is with you, that you are simply not good enough to counter it. Doesn't matter if I bring my DK Standard, someone will shackle you and you will die. Nova, someone will use gravity crush, you will get stunned and die. It's ultimates man, get over it.

Kypho · September 2014

Streak, swarm, pulse pulse, streak, streak, swarm, pulse... no need any other. bye

Aoife32001 · September 2014

Clearly the cost of the ultimate needs to be way higher. The same is true of any ultimate that can almost instantly be re-cast. Otherwise, it's not really an ultimate, is it? If the cost isn't to be increased, then the damage or health return needs to be decreased.

Crowzer · September 2014

Mist form ? Talon.

Kelces · September 2014

Show me one person playing a vampire, that is on the "leader-board" and refuses being a vampire in PvP, because there is actually no difference in strength.

I am quite open to the possibility, but too many are opportunistic. I wonder, why? Probably not because they are such creative individuals...

Tamanous · September 2014

mriguy1981 wrote: »

I'm a nb and this doesn't bother me. I'll hold block or just move out of the way. I rarely die from bats unless I just got cc'ed and am low on health. No nerf needed. I can run this too but its not very successful. Just hold block or run away.

Lol. This guys admits you can't kill the enemy but it is ok because block or run away ... NO NERF NEEDED!

Here's a tip: Look at the bigger picture before saying stupid things like this. This game requires many tweaks and balancing. It is an ongoing process and will never stop. Pvp, and to a lesser extent pve, in this game is little more than OP fotm builds which is worsened by ESO being a skill based game. If you cannot see many of the existing balance issues you are either trolling in order to save your OP combo or utterly blind to reality.

Soloeus · September 2014

Problem is, that you can use other abilities when Bat Swarm is active. Making it so you cannot use other abilities when Bat Swarm is active would fix it.

It would leave the ability powerful, but not OP.

Blackthorn51 · September 2014

I hate to say it but this one is a L2P thing. I deploy counter tactics against Bat Swarms that work great. I pvp for hours on end every day and I can not recall even a single time that bat swarm has killed me unless I totally screwed up by not watching my Stamina or by not paying attention.