Weapons regaining resources on heavy attack. Implications on trial dps game.

Thejollygreenone · September 2014

As the title suggests, I'd like to bring up this new feature just implemented into the game, as no one yet has made a forum post about it, I figured I might as well. Here are my thoughts on the subject.

First off, I would hope that this discourages a bit of resto staff dps use, as should the change to the Cycle of Life passive. In its wake, it encourages more single target destro staff use, which isn't all too much a bad thing I suppose.

I personally thought that the use of a resto staff or shield to do maximum damage is way off target, so I welcome this discouragement although I'm sure some resto-staff dpsers wont be too happy.

Next comes the inevitable discussion of how is this going to affect stamina dps? It seems that rotations for DW and 2H already weave heavy attacks between each ability, so they'll take the change fine. But bow has a particularly odd heavy attack, and generally isn't used in rotations.

Will this change force people to find bow rotations using heavy attacks? Maybe so, and again I'm sure I'd welcome it for sheer sake of diversity. But this leads to another question back to destro staves, will this change force destro staff users to accommodate potentially clunky heavy attacks into their rotations? (Lightning staff seems interesting in this department)

As you can see, there's a lot of things to think about in regards to this new change. Has anyone already started experimenting and would like to share some findings, or if not would anyone be willing to do some testing for their weapontypes and see what one can come up with?

Onicx · September 2014

I like turtles!

Khivas_Carrick · September 2014

This is a much needed and massive improvement on the game system. Thee implications on End Game are pretty much that Stamina builds can actually be used without being crapped on now.

Thejollygreenone · September 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

This is a much needed and massive improvement on the game system. Thee implications on End Game are pretty much that Stamina builds can actually be used without being crapped on now.

Well I guess I was hoping for some specific feedback, I think everyone knew this was a huge change for stamina dps everywhere. But what I'm really wondering is how builds are going to change to accommodate this new game mechanic.

As was mentioned dw and 2h already use heavy attacks in their rotations, how will other weapon types adapt, is the biggest thing I'm wondering. For example, what would a bow or fire staff rotation look like when building the rotation around heavy attacks instead of light attacks?

What ideas do others have about how this will end up working out? I can think on the subject myself of course, which I have been, but the input of others with equally or more sound build/rotation ideas than my own is really what is going to get the needed new builds developed, not some shoddy build attempts by me alone.

Khivas_Carrick · September 2014

To be honest, using a Heavy attack with the bow messes me up kinda bad. I mean using Backlash the build isn't that bad, but at the same time it slows me down and on mobile fights it REALLY makes life difficult lol

As for the previously mentioned DW and 2H, as I use a 2H with medium armor all enchanted for magicka and 50/50 on my MP/HP (I'm a Templar with pretty much zero magicka return, thus the set up) so I'm now able to use my support and offensive spells very easily and back them up with a steady but potent stream of stamina based attacks, and I'm able to move while attacking, which is a life saver in some cases. It's helped boost my DPS quite a bit. I push 800-900 now, as before where I would be bummed at 600 or 700. If I went more offensive instead of support and went all stamina, I'd probably be higher.

Thejollygreenone · September 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

To be honest, using a Heavy attack with the bow messes me up kinda bad. I mean using Backlash the build isn't that bad, but at the same time it slows me down and on mobile fights it REALLY makes life difficult lol

...

I tend to agree, but even though it is clunky and you're movement is slowed, I think it's still a necessary addition to compete. Unless you pulls some crazy weaponswapping rotation where you'd use bow with no heavy attacks til you're running low on stam, then switch to a more stamina friendly weapon rotation, such as with dw or 2h.

But then if either of those rotations end up being higher dps anyway as well as better sustainable, why use bow? Right now I run bow/2h and that synergy ends up working decently as I can hit better numbers with bow but run out of stam quicker than the slightly less dps 2h, so I plan to switch between. But adding in to the mix the ability to switch weapons and ability bars at will adds a bit of unnecessary complications here.

So for the sake of the discussion, I think we should view rotations statically in this sense, meaning with no other weapontypes used when discussing one. So, for weapons like fire staff and bow where the heavy attacks are majorly clunky (more so for bow), do we find rotations for these weapons that use heavy attacks entirely instead of light attacks?

Or maybe we could develop rotations for these less heavy attack friendly weapontypes to allow them to periodically use heavy attacks instead of every other ability like we see in 2h and dw, while filling the rest of the slots with light attacks like normal.

The idea here is that the rotation allows for a heavy attack to be weaved in with little dps penalty if only done once in awhile, but the question remains, being what would a rotation like that actually look like?

These are the big thoughts that have been floating around my head regarding this new mechanic.

Voodoo · September 2014

is it even working? I have been trying to see if a heavy attack with my bow returns stam but I just dont see that it does. ...is it working? I guess I need to update my tactical combat addon to see if it is?

Khivas_Carrick · September 2014

I got back 12% stam with Bow Heavy, 9-11% with 2H Heavy. Resto staff gave me like 10% magicka. It's working lol

Khivas_Carrick · September 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

To be honest, using a Heavy attack with the bow messes me up kinda bad. I mean using Backlash the build isn't that bad, but at the same time it slows me down and on mobile fights it REALLY makes life difficult lol

...

I tend to agree, but even though it is clunky and you're movement is slowed, I think it's still a necessary addition to compete. Unless you pulls some crazy weaponswapping rotation where you'd use bow with no heavy attacks til you're running low on stam, then switch to a more stamina friendly weapon rotation, such as with dw or 2h.
You could, a lot do already actually, before this change.

But then if either of those rotations end up being higher dps anyway as well as better sustainable, why use bow? Right now I run bow/2h and that synergy ends up working decently as I can hit better numbers with bow but run out of stam quicker than the slightly less dps 2h, so I plan to switch between. But adding in to the mix the ability to switch weapons and ability bars at will adds a bit of unnecessary complications here.
I don't know about you, but my sword is a decorative mantle piece compared to my bow and my class skills, even my ultimates, which is where most of my DPS actually comes from. I use bow to both open up with and maintain DPS from afar if I have to, but I actually mostly use my sword in close with Ults, Sweeps, and Spear Shards with Soul Strike and Flawless Dawnbreaker (that move should just be a single target attack ffs lol) and that's how I roll my Templar. Other clases can probably rock a 2H much better than I can, or even the bow in a vastly more stamina friendly manner with their bars, be it single or double.

So for the sake of the discussion, I think we should view rotations statically in this sense, meaning with no other weapontypes used when discussing one. So, for weapons like fire staff and bow where the heavy attacks are majorly clunky (more so for bow), do we find rotations for these weapons that use heavy attacks entirely instead of light attacks?
I would imagine it like this:

Bow - Unload EVERYTHING you can in a massive burst, Templar's would work well here I think due to Backlash, just a constant stream of "lolgodie" spam, then once your empty of Stamina, Heavy Attack the hell out of yourself to refill, then repeat. A second method would be to unload as before but then switch to a staff and unload spells there after. Super burst followed by steady sustained.

Staff - Exact same as the bow but in reverse on both ends. Unload your spells as much as humanly possible, heavy attack to refill, or switch to a stamina weapon and unload then switch back after your regen stocked you back up.

Or maybe we could develop rotations for these less heavy attack friendly weapontypes to allow them to periodically use heavy attacks instead of every other ability like we see in 2h and dw, while filling the rest of the slots with light attacks like normal.
A lot do that now iirc, especially in PvP where a staff user can sit in the back and heavy attack or an archer can pluck arrows to recharge from the safety of the rear lines as the frontline takes the brunt of the assault. Worked wonders for me earlier.

The idea here is that the rotation allows for a heavy attack to be weaved in with little dps penalty if only done once in awhile, but the question remains, being what would a rotation like that actually look like?
Now that's where I'm out of ideas, because I don't use a staff, and for my bow it's a simple matter of Backlash (Power Of The Light)--->Light Attack--->Vampire's Bane--->Light Attack---> Venom Arrow--->Repeat, with the first Backlash being used with Soul Strike if it's up. How others would do it is well beyond me.

These are the big thoughts that have been floating around my head regarding this new mechanic.

Thejollygreenone · September 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

To be honest, using a Heavy attack with the bow messes me up kinda bad. I mean using Backlash the build isn't that bad, but at the same time it slows me down and on mobile fights it REALLY makes life difficult lol

...

I tend to agree, but even though it is clunky and you're movement is slowed, I think it's still a necessary addition to compete. Unless you pulls some crazy weaponswapping rotation where you'd use bow with no heavy attacks til you're running low on stam, then switch to a more stamina friendly weapon rotation, such as with dw or 2h.
You could, a lot do already actually, before this change.

But then if either of those rotations end up being higher dps anyway as well as better sustainable, why use bow? Right now I run bow/2h and that synergy ends up working decently as I can hit better numbers with bow but run out of stam quicker than the slightly less dps 2h, so I plan to switch between. But adding in to the mix the ability to switch weapons and ability bars at will adds a bit of unnecessary complications here.
I don't know about you, but my sword is a decorative mantle piece compared to my bow and my class skills, even my ultimates, which is where most of my DPS actually comes from. I use bow to both open up with and maintain DPS from afar if I have to, but I actually mostly use my sword in close with Ults, Sweeps, and Spear Shards with Soul Strike and Flawless Dawnbreaker (that move should just be a single target attack ffs lol) and that's how I roll my Templar. Other clases can probably rock a 2H much better than I can, or even the bow in a vastly more stamina friendly manner with their bars, be it single or double.

So for the sake of the discussion, I think we should view rotations statically in this sense, meaning with no other weapontypes used when discussing one. So, for weapons like fire staff and bow where the heavy attacks are majorly clunky (more so for bow), do we find rotations for these weapons that use heavy attacks entirely instead of light attacks?
I would imagine it like this:

Bow - Unload EVERYTHING you can in a massive burst, Templar's would work well here I think due to Backlash, just a constant stream of "lolgodie" spam, then once your empty of Stamina, Heavy Attack the hell out of yourself to refill, then repeat. A second method would be to unload as before but then switch to a staff and unload spells there after. Super burst followed by steady sustained.

Staff - Exact same as the bow but in reverse on both ends. Unload your spells as much as humanly possible, heavy attack to refill, or switch to a stamina weapon and unload then switch back after your regen stocked you back up.

Or maybe we could develop rotations for these less heavy attack friendly weapontypes to allow them to periodically use heavy attacks instead of every other ability like we see in 2h and dw, while filling the rest of the slots with light attacks like normal.
A lot do that now iirc, especially in PvP where a staff user can sit in the back and heavy attack or an archer can pluck arrows to recharge from the safety of the rear lines as the frontline takes the brunt of the assault. Worked wonders for me earlier.

The idea here is that the rotation allows for a heavy attack to be weaved in with little dps penalty if only done once in awhile, but the question remains, being what would a rotation like that actually look like?
Now that's where I'm out of ideas, because I don't use a staff, and for my bow it's a simple matter of Backlash (Power Of The Light)--->Light Attack--->Vampire's Bane--->Light Attack---> Venom Arrow--->Repeat, with the first Backlash being used with Soul Strike if it's up. How others would do it is well beyond me.

These are the big thoughts that have been floating around my head regarding this new mechanic.

I gotta say, I appreciate the detailed responses, and especially the %values of return given by experience, but I think your post here is moving a bit off subject.

The discussion I'm trying to present is builds and rotation changes induced by the new change, specifically in a trial level pure dps setting.

What I'm tryin point out is that any discussion including pvp, or even any situational scenarios don't quite have a place in the discussion I'm trying to foster. This discussion can be boiled down to a very specific sit there and turret and what sequence of abilities do you use.

When dealing with single target sustained trial dps, the conversation can be quite simplified, which is why I picked it as my focus, in that all that needs to be discussed is a build of abilities/weapon/armor, the rotation of abilities in that build over a non-stop consistent period, and how that rotation affects one's resource pool in relation to the new heavy attack mechanic. All against an NPC boss, NOT a player who throws in unknown variables.

So again, this makes things a bit simple in that you can talk about stamina dps and limit it to only the weapon based damaging abilities used, and the spell based destro staff/class abilities that would be used in a single target dps rotation. And both of these should be talked about in their ideals.

If you're using a 2h build that is a mix of magicka and stamina, but doesn't do as much dps as either and you use it for utility and can keep it in pvp, I don't feel it has a place in this discussion I regret to say, as much as it interests me.

For example, I'll get a bit more specific in the direction I'd like to see this discussion moving in:

Destro staff users generally have a DoT or two on the boss then spam crushing shock/light attacks until DoTs are ready to be refreshed. How can we incorporate heavy attacks into this to make it a sustained dps gain rather than a dps loss?

For bow, though, there's no clear cut rotation already in place for trials since it's always sucked for sustained dps in a trial environment. The build I used was a couple DoTs with scatter shot as my spammable,

However with the release of the Morag Tong set for bows I've switched to a double poison DoT build with spamming Lethal Arrow weaving light attacks between and have been getting respectable numbers. Is it possible that replacing light attacks between snipes with heavy attacks instead could be done without losing dps?

Is it possible for heavy attacks to be weaved into a crushing shock rotation without losing dps? Can heavy attacks be weaved into a snipe rotation without losing dps? Or even a venom arrow spam or scatter shot spam rotation? These are the primary questions on my mind.

Khivas_Carrick · September 2014

I think it's possible if the fights last longer. In a short fight I could easily see Light Attacks and Skills working well/better than Heavy Attacks and Skills, but in a longer fight, when were sustaining yourself is key, Heavy attacks with Skilsl will definitely prevail.

Thejollygreenone · September 2014

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I think it's possible if the fights last longer. In a short fight I could easily see Light Attacks and Skills working well/better than Heavy Attacks and Skills, but in a longer fight, when were sustaining yourself is key, Heavy attacks with Skilsl will definitely prevail.

Indeed I would agree, and it would make sense to take that idea further and say that you'd possibly use one rotation for short fights and a different one for longer fights, in the fashion you mentioned.

But the question remains how would such rotations adapting for heavy attacks look? We've talked a bit about the subject as a whole and shed some light on it, but I'd like to take it a bit further, and maybe even get some testing done.

As for me, between destro staff and bow I'm only in a position to test different builds with heavy attacks for a bow, since I'm in stamina gear and use a bow already. But even then if others could start playing around with it with their bow, even better. Come back with findings.

And for destro staff users reading this thread, same thing to you. Go play around with how you can add in the fire staff heavy attack to your rotations without killing your dps, and see if it's worth it.

Sorcerers who use destro staff may have it easy because of the channeled nature of the lightning staff, it may not be as clunky to weave in. Regardless, I'd like to see both destro staff and bow users thinking about rotations they can use to incorporate this new mechanic, and come back to discuss what you came up with.