The New Keep capture strategy

decado0024_ESO · September 2014

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Death penalties are simply that, penalties for failure. With no failure state drawback, it's utterly beneficial to the dying player to run headlong into the fight as respawning gives them all their resources back.

Rush in -> Expend all resources -> Die -> Repeat

That's not good gameplay. That's zerging.

Agreed. The last two nights on chillrend my guild TKO decided we were going to take some outposts from the daycappers. we had exactly 21 guild members in group and 4 pugs outside of group. We held off DC faction for over an hour. Earning a 29k def tick and an 11k def tick. The battle degraded into the entire faction waiting for the emp to get there and rushing in behind him. As soon as he was shut down the push melted out. However with no death penalty all that happened was we had about 5 secs between pushes to regain mana before they rushed again. After 12 or so failed attempts simple attrition won out and we lost the outpost. Had there been a slight death penalty where they either couldn't use the tent right away or they came back weak for a few mins it would have given the defenders more of a chance and also allowed for us to cultivate more def ticks. The simple fact remains that regardless of skill level or tactics implied numbers is the game. And that ignores the 3 to one ratio. I know some don't know what that means so I will explain. According to military procedures 1 defender is the equivalent of 3 attackers. And that is at a minimum.

Braidas · September 2014

Ilven wrote: »

the biggest problem of Cyrodiil are the continuous use of impulse, the addition of friendly fire may limit the use of tactics based simply on being grouped and spam AoE

I can't help but wonder if you guys who ask for friendly fire actually think about what friendly fire would be like in this game, lmao.

Nala_ · September 2014

Ilven wrote: »

the biggest problem of Cyrodiil are the continuous use of impulse

/thread

KellanKell · September 2014

I think there are a bunch of issues with the run in and zerg the flag strat.

First of all it seems like the NPC's should not just "go away" when you flip a keep. In fact they should almost get buffed in like an enrage mode if you take the keep before killing them all. This would make it better to defend a keep from these type of zerg attacks.

I agree it is a drag and a lagtastic method, but right now it seems like many people feel this is the only way to successfully take keeps.

I also think something needs to be done about pouring oil on flat surfaces. I almost think the oil should hurt the team pouring it as well. Oil is way overpowered to have 4-6 of them dropping on a flag as a method of defense against the zerg also seems like a backward strategy.

jkirchner71ub17_ESO2 · September 2014

Brandeospeedwagon wrote: »

I can't help but wonder if you guys who ask for friendly fire actually think about what friendly fire would be like in this game, lmao.

You nailed it, we might as well start asking Zos to also make ALL AOE spells and attacks hurt our "friends" around us. Let's be realistic well maybe not realistic but in the context of this game this is just stupid. C'mon folks Zos has bigger issues with the mechanics / environment in Cyro to throw this into the mix.

Don't like a zerg hitting the flag - counter it - it can be done as I have seen it done and have done it. Seen five defend a flag against numerous with oil on four corners and negates. We did it with six and the players kept coming like poor lemmings melting under our feet. Organize your defense better and stop blaming NPCs for the failures to defend as they are NPCs.

I do like the barracks idea someone posted earlier - would be an interesting scenario the sieging alliance would have to contend with once they breached the outer walls. Heck throw in one world boss at each keep to make it even more interesting.

c0rp · September 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Remove AoE Caps
Increase the HP of Walls a crap ton
Remove Forward Camps

bloody problem solved.

We can dream that @zos_BrianWheeler wakes up one day...

bitaken · September 2014

jkirchner71ub17_ESO2 wrote: »

Brandeospeedwagon wrote: »

I can't help but wonder if you guys who ask for friendly fire actually think about what friendly fire would be like in this game, lmao.

You nailed it, we might as well start asking Zos to also make ALL AOE spells and attacks hurt our "friends" around us. Let's be realistic well maybe not realistic but in the context of this game this is just stupid. C'mon folks Zos has bigger issues with the mechanics / environment in Cyro to throw this into the mix.

Don't like a zerg hitting the flag - counter it - it can be done as I have seen it done and have done it. Seen five defend a flag against numerous with oil on four corners and negates. We did it with six and the players kept coming like poor lemmings melting under our feet. Organize your defense better and stop blaming NPCs for the failures to defend as they are NPCs.

I do like the barracks idea someone posted earlier - would be an interesting scenario the sieging alliance would have to contend with once they breached the outer walls. Heck throw in one world boss at each keep to make it even more interesting.

While I appreciate your elite defense strategies I do not think you have seen the phenomenon of what I refer to. We were defending the flag - we had oils - we were killing plenty - and we did not die to players.

We died to guards. Enemy guards - because the 50+ that were stacked on each flag flipped them while we were standing and oiling and negating and dropping banners/flares/veils. Some of this can be attributed to server performance. I do believe the mechanics of the game functions break down - especially when I have 3-5 second delay in switching from dropping a negate to interacting with siege.

However, thank you for your elite recommendations. Of course I have never done any of those things before. Rank 34 in AvA I think I know a little bit about how to defend a keep with my group.

Distilled_Enzyme · September 2014

bitaken wrote: »

While I appreciate your elite defense strategies I do not think you have seen the phenomenon of what I refer to. We were defending the flag - we had oils - we were killing plenty - and we did not die to players.

We died to guards. Enemy guards - because the 50+ that were stacked on each flag flipped them while we were standing and oiling and negating and dropping banners/flares/veils. Some of this can be attributed to server performance. I do believe the mechanics of the game functions break down - especially when I have 3-5 second delay in switching from dropping a negate to interacting with siege.

However, thank you for your elite recommendations. Of course I have never done any of those things before. Rank 34 in AvA I think I know a little bit about how to defend a keep with my group.

The passive-aggressiveness is real!

Haha. But, true statement nonetheless. At the risk of sounding like I'm tooting my -- or "our" -- own horn: Though there is always room for improvement with any raid party, I have never ran with a more organized PvP group since the glory years in Ultima Online (read: "had a better PvP raid leader whose quick thinking and ability to see the 'lines' of battle is akin to watching Rain Man counting cards in Vegas. Just sit back and count your fat stacks at the end of the night."), I can assure you that our group's ability to defend and/or attack keeps/resources against 3+/1 odds is envied by many and rivaled by very few. It had nothing to do with our group's ability to defend a keep. His point was precisely that without resource pools with a couple extra zeroes at the end, there was no feasible way to defend a flag with only ~15 people against a blob of 50+ enemies standing directly on it when you account for the AoE cap, the blazing fast flip time of the flag with that many people on it, and the instant spawn of keep guards that appear the very moment the second flag flips.

I wanted to weigh in a few days ago, but I just got my forum account setup today. Here is a snippet from what I had mentioned on our guild forum regarding this very topic of forward camps:

The point is that forward camps should be a luxury-type item. If you happen to get lucky enough to be within range of a camp and you don't have a cooldown, awesome. If not, the price for dying should be that you have to run from your closest keep. This keeps players from all factions spread out across the entire map, which would allow all style of pvpers to get a more equal amount of action.

In theory, it should also help reduce the lag caused by massive zergs in a condensed area since the people who die need to travel by land to rejoin their raid, thus leaving the gankers along routes more battle opportunities instead of having to constantly bloodgate around the map to make sure you're in an area that hopefully will get a few poor saps that pass by to kill. Conversely, it could also reinforce zerg mentality since you're less likely to die the bigger your group is. It would have to be something that would be a WIP over several patches. All I know is that as it is right now, it's pretty ridiculous that one very organized raid -- especially if it's an emperor group -- can essentially defend 4+ keeps by themselves so long as they're disciplined enough to keep fresh camps at them all.

Honestly, I think there are multiple routes that could be taken in order to improve upon the current system. What if we keep the core of how it is right now, but make the camps more expensive and make it so that a camp only lasts ~60 seconds whether or not it's even utilized, and also place a max radius on the camp that one would need to be from it in order to use it. This would be a nice AP sink forcing players to use them more sparingly. Moreover, it would require organization and planning since 1-2 people would need to stay alive in a staging area ready to place a camp if needed for his/her group. A res sickness may still be useful in this case as well, but I'd advise against making too many changes all at once.

*** TL;DR ***

Possible FC changes I'm pondering might work:
(I'm NOT suggesting we do ALL of these. I'm merely throwing out individual ideas that might help us come up with a combination of a few to improve the FC situation we currently have.)

Allow only dead players within spawn radius of a camp to use.
Players incur a "death sickness" for [x] seconds/minutes upon res from a FC.
Players may only res at a FC once every [x seconds/minutes].
Decrease the radius of tent to cover ~150% of the average area of a keep.
Make the FC last ~60 seconds OR revive ~15 players (whichever comes first).
Make Nikel, Bleaker's and Sejanus work as an FOI (Forward Operating Infirmary, if you will) for the alliance that currently controls it. What I mean is that, for example, DC is pushed all the way back to their gates (ie. no controlled keeps). A group could go capture one of the FOIs which would allow any player to resurrect there once per hour without incurring a death sickness or resetting their respawn timer for FCs.
Alternatively to the previous point, you could allow players to res at any FC regardless of distance once per hour.

Thoughts?

Rune_Relic · September 2014

bitaken wrote: »

We had the players negated / snared / oiled to the nth degree - but the mages / archers spawned and wrecked us from behind.

Enlightening lol

eliisra · September 2014

bitaken wrote: »

We died to guards. Enemy guards - because the 50+ that were stacked on each flag flipped them while we were standing and oiling and negating and dropping banners/flares/veils. Some of this can be attributed to server performance. I do believe the mechanics of the game functions break down - especially when I have 3-5 second delay in switching from dropping a negate to interacting with siege.

I know what you mean, I get that scenario a lot. You can drop 20 negates and every ranged spell in the game on the megablob. Nothing happens. Obvious reason, your skills only affects 3-6 target. But all the animation generated from the blob also kills your performance. Makes your skills and sieges stop responding. It even makes you crash.

You can pour oil from every angle. Even squeeze in a meat bag. But the the heals, shields, purges and crazy lag going of from that many people spamming, it will nullify most of it.

Eventually they will start to die from siege and oil, but than it's to late. The flag has flipped, you couldn't get close enough to save it due to 50+ Impulse and other PBAoE covering the entire flag room floor. You get wrecked by a horde of NPC's (and the zerg that just re-spawned from the forward camp). Fun stuff.

If this is the future of ESO PvP, than I'm not really interested in continuing.

bitaken · September 2014

Distilled_Enzyme wrote: »

The passive-aggressiveness is real! Haha.

Yes, it certainly can be

Distilled_Enzyme wrote: »

[*] Allow only dead players within spawn radius of a camp to use.
[*] Players incur a "death sickness" for [x] seconds/minutes upon res from a FC.

I like both of these. The "fast travel to keep" upon one member of your alliance arriving - no matter where you are on the map - is just silly right now.

Distilled_Enzyme wrote: »

[*] Make Nikel, Bleaker's and Sejanus work as an FOI (Forward Operating Infirmary, if you will) for the alliance that currently controls it. What I mean is that, for example, DC is pushed all the way back to their gates (ie. no controlled keeps). A group could go capture one of the FOIs which would allow any player to resurrect there once per hour without incurring a death sickness or resetting their respawn timer for FCs.

[/list]

Thoughts?

Really like the FOI idea - a lot actually. Being able to rez at those spots, on a timer, gives defense to BRK/Alessia, Ash/Roe, and Ales/Chalman and puts more emphasis on those spots on the map. More reasons to fight for them would be a good thing imho - some of the most memorable defenses or offenses occurred at those forts.

Thechemicals · September 2014

So, sieging an outer breach followed an an inner breach then capturing 2 flags whilst being defended by oil,siege,players, and npcs is not strategically organized when using aoe bomb raid groups? Should a 24 man raid uppercut its way into a flag filled with oil pots?

Cody · September 2014

inspiral1 wrote: »

Also feel like its such a big pvp map but most never used, how about pvp rifts? Erm i mean anchors, that throw out 2 teams, last man standing, deathmatch? In random locations? Soo much potential here and not like they have to add new content just modify it.

or how about 2 anchors either end of a field, each anchor has a pve boss, who ever kills the other teams boss wins and points go towards champaign. Think of the pvp fun in mid field or defensive team protecting either boss.

how about even bosses in keeps? I mean what are we fighting for? There is nothing inside its just walls! Or put a scroll in every keep...something! Even a sweetroll!!!!

they really should consider adding "flags" to things like the bridges, certain parts of the wilderness, maybe even the cities, anything to add more diversity to the game.

neiljwd · September 2014

As a PvE nub who's invested a fair amount of time into PvP this week, I think there's a lot of things that are frustrating about Cyrodil. Oil for me is the worst, you can't see it, its placeable on the ground floor and in close proximity to other oils.

The ONLY counter to this is a large scale Zerg. The solidity of defence ensures the necessity of zerg attacks.

So while many of the zerg tactics do need nerfing, I stress it shouldn't be in isolation, but the full ramifications considered.

I think a simple thing like a 30 second res Delay would force improvements on both sides. Zergs have to approach in a considered manner. And if an oil defender gets picked off, it actually hurts them as they have to wait for them to return.

Durham · September 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Problem is the spells themselves are causing the lag.

Your typical healing springs you cast that in a group of 100+ people the system has to quickly and instantly check the health of all 100+ members and decide which 6 people get the heal.

Add in additional combat and that's where your lag is coming from.

Maybe removing caps might quicken the check as now all it has to do is simply heal everybody in range, but im quite certain SOMEBDOY is going to figure out how to lock up the system.

Lets say we remove caps....ok now your BEST class in-game would be Templar as they can heal 3 people with a fairly decent range with no aiming required.

This would now cause new lag being spammed as you have X people in range during combat and the system has to check who needs the heal.

This has been known for at least 3 months... still no fix..

DeaconFrost · September 2014

The fact of the matter is, there will always be a way to exploit whatever 'fix' or game mechanic that is implemented. No 100% will be happy. While some problems can be clearly improved upon, there's never going to be a euphoric experience for all.

Some have mentioned player collision as a possible fix but I remember my UO days when various players would hide to form bottlenecks in various dungeons or passages, trap people inside then burn them down with poison/fire fields. While it was fun for the PKs, people complained about it all the time. (That was some fun PVP lol)