Kypho wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

Slightly off topic while on topic here:

Why do we need AOE's at all?

How would a modern mmorpg suffer if there was no AOE'S at all?

Is AOE required for any MMO? No.If the game is designed from scratch not to have any AOE.

Is AOE required for TESO?
Yes since all end game group content is designed and balanced for efficient alternation between AOE DPS and Single target DPS. This can be clearly seen in PUGs where you will always get some DW guy without Steel Tornado and some Bow guy that only uses snipe. Bot of them they will maybe put down an ultimate once an entire run. In general that means a painful slow slog.

AOE is bad imo. there is no fight if you need just to spam AOE crap. thats only my oppinion. Yes, its just a game, its mmo, but wth AOE spam is needed? Its like throwing grenades all around and killing enemies only. Such a BS. Anyway. AOE vs AOE is not a fight, never will be fight. Real fight is single vs single even 3 v 1.
No need to flame was just IMO. In ES was not such BS AOE, you fought with single, and the aoe like ones was much weaker.

If you think playing an AOE build is just Spam AOE,then you probably did not try to play one and did not try to make it work efficiently. You also probably did not get any practice in efficiently switching between single target and AOE for maximum dps and ultimate generation or to control the movement of the crowd to get the most of AOEs. You may not like it but ESO combat system and mobs design is about AOE/Single target switching and efficient ultimate generation and use.It will not change any time soon.

TheMachineKiller wrote: »

Why do people complain about stuff like this? Mom is not going to get on here for you and make the other 'boys quit impulsing'.

B b b but .... It's not fair. :'(

Kego wrote: »

I can agree with the OP.
Impulse is way to strong and that is not only in PvE but in PvP a problem as well. The 24/7 Blob in Cyrodiil does nothing more than spamming Impulse and Ults. For those players, this game only needs a 2 Slot Character. The other 4 Slots are not used at all.

All AOE in this Game should work like Volley from Bow. A long duration Attack, that it can't be spammed on the run. Nothing more is stupid than an PBAOE Attack that can be spammed during running. Just for testing I would give Impule a casttime of 1 second.

It's a strong argument. It does beg the question with an AoE like Impulse with absolutely no drawback, what is the point of using anything else? Impulse does quite a bit of damage and it's magicka efficient. Anyone that doesn't use it either isn't aware of that or they choose not to use it out of personal taste.

Rodario wrote: »

This slogan is the worst mistake ZOS ever made. They should have foreseen how many people would take it literally, or at least use it as justification to complain about... well, anything really.

I guess the reason we're not seing many "Why can't I ride dragons while swinging mjölnir and obliterate armies with fire and lightning from above? Because that's the way I want to play!" posts, is that people realize it's just a slogan. They just like using it as an excuse to complain.

I'm not making a statement about your complaint OP, it's the argument I'm sick of hearing. It's an easy and lazy way to avoid using actual facts or logical arguments to elaborate a percieved issue.

I agree about invoking the word as some sort way to add credence to any argument, but the truth is still that it's boring to see the same tactic used over and over. It's not a lack of imagination on the player base it's a lack of imagination on the part of ZOS. Everything must be in balance. If you're going to have a spell like Impulse it needs to have some sort of drawback to it. As it stands there really isn't any because there is no drawback to using a destruction staff. It's the same reason why melee is still so terrible in this game. The truth is melee should be a lot of fun in this game but it feels like it's an after thought.

I use it in group dungeons, and while I would hate to have it nerfed, it needs it. It's just too effective.

I don't feel like aoes should be as high damage as they are in this game in general.

I should at least be able to do more damage to an individual target with targetted attacks than someone can do just spamming an aoe.

Ruebs wrote: »

Today i was testing some AoE Loadouts on my DK. I put together a Triple-Dot Loadout, Using, Fiery Breath- Flames of Oblivion- Cinderstorm- Draw Essence and Mage Light. Critting off 3 separate DoT's allows very quick Ultimate Gain. I could get a standard down every 11 seconds, and hit a top DPS of 3.1k.

I then decided to try out my LEVEL 3 Impulse, to get an idea on average AoE DPS. To my shock and disgust, i was able to get 3.3k dps by spamming ONE button.
My carefully constructed, perfectly timed AoE loadout (Above^) is made completely obsolete by one skill.

We were promised 'Play how you Like'. And it's true, you can. However if you want to be even slightly competitive, you have to run LA and Impluse.
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Good luck getting into a Trial group! If you're not wielding a Desto Staff, you're officially not a DPS'er..

I'm not a Doomsayer, but the lack of viable variation is getting really, really boring.

P.S- Please keep in mind I was testing on Undead Creatures (Spellscar). DPS is considerably less on 'living' Creatures, due to the lack of Ulti gains and Fighters Guild passives.

Honestly I am not so surprised that your rotation does not contribute as much damage as a impulse spam. Your main damage skill would be a frontal cone Fiery breath, combined with the toggle flames of oblivion ( which you could combined with impulse to do more too). You have a survival skill thrown in that happens to do damage too, then you throw in draw essance which caps at three enemies for sustain, three enemies lower how much dps you can do with that move. Your main dps would come from standard I am guessing, which increases survival as well, and in theory based on the time you said you can constantly have it up.

You built a Survival AoE build with three skills that work primarily for keeping the build going, or keeping you alive... And compared it to a skill purely based to do damage.

Nihil wrote: »

Ruebs wrote: »

Today i was testing some AoE Loadouts on my DK. I put together a Triple-Dot Loadout, Using, Fiery Breath- Flames of Oblivion- Cinderstorm- Draw Essence and Mage Light. Critting off 3 separate DoT's allows very quick Ultimate Gain. I could get a standard down every 11 seconds, and hit a top DPS of 3.1k.

I then decided to try out my LEVEL 3 Impulse, to get an idea on average AoE DPS. To my shock and disgust, i was able to get 3.3k dps by spamming ONE button.
My carefully constructed, perfectly timed AoE loadout (Above^) is made completely obsolete by one skill.

We were promised 'Play how you Like'. And it's true, you can. However if you want to be even slightly competitive, you have to run LA and Impluse.
|
Good luck getting into a Trial group! If you're not wielding a Desto Staff, you're officially not a DPS'er..

I'm not a Doomsayer, but the lack of viable variation is getting really, really boring.

P.S- Please keep in mind I was testing on Undead Creatures (Spellscar). DPS is considerably less on 'living' Creatures, due to the lack of Ulti gains and Fighters Guild passives.

Honestly I am not so surprised that your rotation does not contribute as much damage as a impulse spam. Your main damage skill would be a frontal cone Fiery breath, combined with the toggle flames of oblivion ( which you could combined with impulse to do more too). You have a survival skill thrown in that happens to do damage too, then you throw in draw essance which caps at three enemies for sustain, three enemies lower how much dps you can do with that move. Your main dps would come from standard I am guessing, which increases survival as well, and in theory based on the time you said you can constantly have it up.

You built a Survival AoE build with three skills that work primarily for keeping the build going, or keeping you alive... And compared it to a skill purely based to do damage.

No. I get Slightly higher DPS from Draw Essence, then Fiery Breath. Your right, i get the most damage from my twin Standards.

But what your saying is it's Ok that x4 damaging skills PLUS 2x Standards does less damage then a singular LvL 3 Spell?

Who cares anymore. Just face it magic is where it's at. Bow to the Dark side and grab your stick and skirts boys, drop your heavy armor, forget edged weapons, start looking for vampire bites now, blah blah blah flavor of the month blah blah.

Ruebs wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

Ruebs wrote: »

Today i was testing some AoE Loadouts on my DK. I put together a Triple-Dot Loadout, Using, Fiery Breath- Flames of Oblivion- Cinderstorm- Draw Essence and Mage Light. Critting off 3 separate DoT's allows very quick Ultimate Gain. I could get a standard down every 11 seconds, and hit a top DPS of 3.1k.

I then decided to try out my LEVEL 3 Impulse, to get an idea on average AoE DPS. To my shock and disgust, i was able to get 3.3k dps by spamming ONE button.
My carefully constructed, perfectly timed AoE loadout (Above^) is made completely obsolete by one skill.

We were promised 'Play how you Like'. And it's true, you can. However if you want to be even slightly competitive, you have to run LA and Impluse.
|
Good luck getting into a Trial group! If you're not wielding a Desto Staff, you're officially not a DPS'er..

I'm not a Doomsayer, but the lack of viable variation is getting really, really boring.

P.S- Please keep in mind I was testing on Undead Creatures (Spellscar). DPS is considerably less on 'living' Creatures, due to the lack of Ulti gains and Fighters Guild passives.

Honestly I am not so surprised that your rotation does not contribute as much damage as a impulse spam. Your main damage skill would be a frontal cone Fiery breath, combined with the toggle flames of oblivion ( which you could combined with impulse to do more too). You have a survival skill thrown in that happens to do damage too, then you throw in draw essance which caps at three enemies for sustain, three enemies lower how much dps you can do with that move. Your main dps would come from standard I am guessing, which increases survival as well, and in theory based on the time you said you can constantly have it up.

You built a Survival AoE build with three skills that work primarily for keeping the build going, or keeping you alive... And compared it to a skill purely based to do damage.

No. I get Slightly higher DPS from Draw Essence, then Fiery Breath. Your right, i get the most damage from my twin Standards.

But what your saying is it's Ok that x4 damaging skills PLUS 2x Standards does less damage then a singular LvL 3 Spell?

Looking at how the skills work I would assume so yes. But as you have tested this I will ask you a few questions before I go to far into it. Your main "spam" skills that I see are fire breath and Draw essance. Fire breath main damage comes from the DOT and Draw Essance has a delay before dealing some damage. So what do you use for a Spam skill as neither of these appear to have the inital damage needed for a spam skill? It looks like you are completely relying on the DoT from Standard to make up for the DPS loss In comparison to Impulse.

Each time you cast Cinder storm you should have a dps loss, due to it not doing as much damage, but with the benefits as more survivability. Survival skills need to have a decrease in dps or else they become extremely over powered fast.

To me it just looks like you have to much riding on the standard for dps, and your spam skills just are to low of dps, with mixing in survival skills as well you are lowering it ever so slightly more. I like the combo, but if you are shooting for max dps, you just are trying to do to much with one build.

You know in cyrodiill? There are dummys...but u can 2 shot them, well how about making them actually dummies so we can test things properly and give back proper feedback...its like your trying to hide how unbalanced this game is...also i usually use trolls as dummies, but the location i used to use guess what? They mysteriously dissapeared...Trollnap!

One other thought I thought of, if you are relying on the data that addon's say about dps, then those are based on when you first enter battle, which sets your build up to a slow start I would assume. Assuming starting off with flames of oblivion and cinder storm you will already be at a large dps lost at the start of battle compared to impulse (as impulse is hitting right away at high damage) even starting with standard and following up with these skills you have a descent set up before you start to build up the dps where impulse stays high from the start.

If you assume you loose 2 seconds at least from the beginning of battle, and depending on how long the battle lasts, then you might actually be getting higher dps from your build it just not being reflected due to the initial slower start up. (sorry thinking of things as I am playing thus the multiple posts.)

As another player asked, how long do your fights last with large mob groups? This will drastically show how well your build is actually doing.

Zormac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Zormac wrote: »

You guys keep saying this, Zenimax will nerf Impulse instead of making the other skills more powerful, as they should.

to be hones t i dont see the reason for either.
the OP stated himself that he could use a class build with slightly higher survivability but less then 10% dps lost.
other classes are not even in the situation to even reach his class build dps with impulse nor their own skills.
if impulse needs to be nerfed the dk skill would be too...

My point is that "nerf" is an outdated concept. That's not how you balance a game.

Actually games need to nerf and buff to keep it healthy. Just buffing everything else to be "on par" Is a lot more intensive for the game designers to do and a large waist of time too. In essance if they buffed every aspect of the game to bring it up to lvl with the skills that would be considered over powered then in essance they will be nerfing the skill by ommision... It just makes people feel better not seeing their skill altered down.

Main reason aoe is very powerful in pvp is that it cant be blocked

You're bad if you think AoE DPS would mean anything, and you're bad if you think that the skills you mentioned apart from fiery breath are good for dpsing.

Nihil wrote: »

Zormac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Zormac wrote: »

You guys keep saying this, Zenimax will nerf Impulse instead of making the other skills more powerful, as they should.

to be hones t i dont see the reason for either.
the OP stated himself that he could use a class build with slightly higher survivability but less then 10% dps lost.
other classes are not even in the situation to even reach his class build dps with impulse nor their own skills.
if impulse needs to be nerfed the dk skill would be too...

My point is that "nerf" is an outdated concept. That's not how you balance a game.

Actually games need to nerf and buff to keep it healthy. Just buffing everything else to be "on par" Is a lot more intensive for the game designers to do and a large waist of time too. In essance if they buffed every aspect of the game to bring it up to lvl with the skills that would be considered over powered then in essance they will be nerfing the skill by ommision... It just makes people feel better not seeing their skill altered down.

If they buffed "every aspect of the game", you would be right. However, it's not about buffing everything, but creating pairs/groups of skills that would make players choose a character over the other. If the Dragonknight is tankier than they had hoped and people prefer them for PvP, give the others a way to deal with them, insted of making the Dragonknight weaker. It doesn't make sense that everything that was invested in a character simply disappears because the Eight Divines (*cough* developers) decided that character was too strong. But it does make sense that other people became stronger and are able to fight you.

In an attempt to make the game fair for many, they've been making it unfair for many other players. "Play however you want... unless you're too powerful. Otherwise we'll have to remove your legs".