The New Keep capture strategy

bitaken · September 2014

I don't like the way things are heading. I prefer a skill oriented - teamwork oriented - game. Right now the keep capture strategy is basically - get your whole faction on the flag and spam AE. In the last two iterations of this I have witnessed - the ability lag and bugged out abilities have cost us keeps.

It appears that the "stack everyone on flag" strategy employed by some guilds has struck a note of success in that all that meat - Plus the AOE cap - makes defending a keep with a smaller force just not possible. We stack oils and ultis and kill at least half - but the other half are costing too many resources - and the half that died are pouring right back into the keep with the way the forward camps work and no death penalty.

Is this the way the game is going? Whoever has more people wins? I know it has been heading this way but it appears that it's all about numbers now in keep sieges. No matter how many oils - or anti personnel siege - or sorcerers ripping out negates (which has been difficult with the streak lag and sometimes actually bouncing backwards, and will be impossible with the upcoming gutting of the ability to stop zergs) we can't do enough damage fast enough to 50+ players all stacking on a flag. We may wipe them out once or twice but eventually with no death penalty they wear us down.

Something needs to change. I'm not sure what it is at this point. The AOE cap is part of the problem - forward camps and no death penalty are a part of the problem - server lag is a big part of the problem - and population balances are part of the problem. I do not believe there is an "easy fix" and have no proposal for what a fix may be. However, this is not a "fun experience" where the team with more people auto win. There needs to be some possible solution that allows for the lower population to have a chance to defend keeps from a vastly superior force in numbers only.

Agrippa_Invisus · September 2014

Lag bombing flags to take keeps has to go. This is becoming more and more of an issue. I have way too many friends log in disgust each time we see it. The game starts breaking down mechanically and crashing out is almost guaranteed.

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

Here's the thing though IF a faction is taking ALL their numbers and rolling a keep......attack a DIFFERENT keep and do it in say 25 man groups attempting to take out several different keeps at once.

Their 200+ whatever group is completely useless taking one keep versus divided forces attacking multiple keeps at once.

Tintinabula · September 2014

Lag bombing flags. Brought to you originally by: The letter D. D for Daggerfail Covenant.

Xsorus · September 2014

Remove AoE Caps
Increase the HP of Walls a crap ton
Remove Forward Camps

bloody problem solved.

kkravaritieb17_ESO · September 2014

Lag is awful these days in Cyrodiil....makes me not want to play.

InvictoNZ · September 2014

Friendly fire. All problems solved.

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

Problem is the spells themselves are causing the lag.

Your typical healing springs you cast that in a group of 100+ people the system has to quickly and instantly check the health of all 100+ members and decide which 6 people get the heal.

Add in additional combat and that's where your lag is coming from.

Maybe removing caps might quicken the check as now all it has to do is simply heal everybody in range, but im quite certain SOMEBDOY is going to figure out how to lock up the system.

Lets say we remove caps....ok now your BEST class in-game would be Templar as they can heal 3 people with a fairly decent range with no aiming required.

This would now cause new lag being spammed as you have X people in range during combat and the system has to check who needs the heal.

Huntler · September 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Problem is the spells themselves are causing the lag.

Your typical healing springs you cast that in a group of 100+ people the system has to quickly and instantly check the health of all 100+ members and decide which 6 people get the heal.

Add in additional combat and that's where your lag is coming from.

Maybe removing caps might quicken the check as now all it has to do is simply heal everybody in range, but im quite certain SOMEBDOY is going to figure out how to lock up the system.

Lets say we remove caps....ok now your BEST class in-game would be Templar as they can heal 3 people with a fairly decent range with no aiming required.

This would now cause new lag being spammed as you have X people in range during combat and the system has to check who needs the heal.

I'm curious how removing AOE caps makes templar the best class in the game because it has a heal that hits 3 people O.o.... that logic is.... a jump

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

Well what other class allows you to spread out and heal such as Templar?

GFBStarWars · September 2014

Add flag to all outside door (main and side), add a barack where guard spawn and player can interact somehow ( 1 player become the lead of the defence and can decide where he want more guard. This place can be conquered and reduce defence guard by a lot, but attacker get no guards to help with siege.

Add buff if you are in the inner keep, something like last stand, where damage taken is reduced by x% and range is increased by x, so that you can kill the attacker from inner wall.

Make camp group only and not visible on map if you are not in group, only group member that died while in group get the chance to respawn, if u die with another group you cant use that camp.
Camp limited to player in radius only if group option is not doable.

Add malus to defender outiside of inner keep if siege has been longer that x minutes, (famine as in real sieges, regen reduced in % of total or something else).

Make inner keep door more resistent to ranged siege weapon but the ram will deal more damage.

Just to add something that is not remove aoe cap and kill exploiter

Lava_Croft · September 2014

What exactly is 'new' about everybody stacking on the flag while taking a keep?

Icy · September 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Your typical healing springs you cast that in a group of 100+ people the system has to quickly and instantly check the health of all 100+ members and decide which 6 people get the heal.

If your group was prioritized there would be less processing required. Healing springs then needs to evaluate over a max of 24 in the first instance. Much less database processing required.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · September 2014

I'm almost wondering if they should buff guards to v10 to stay competitive. I seen too many scenarios where it doesn't matter how many sieges shields and heals are up the enemy just bumrushes the flag, or worse stealthers pluck off the guard from redonkulous range before anyone knows what's going on. (If anyone plays Haderus KC LM you know what I'm talking about).

rsciw · September 2014

Maybe you're just doing it wrong?

This last night in the last 5-6 hours perhaps we defended Ash for a long time against blues (perhaps 1.5h or so), then defended Faregyl for another 2h at least against reds, each time we were outnumbered, at some points vastly outnumbered. Both sides had camps, both sides fighting all time, both sides had a good time.

Remove the camps, add death penalty, keep fights take a few minutes then the fight's over, go to next keep, same game, kills the fun, no one logs on because it's pointless.

But since some of you apparently hate having fun in PvP, continue pushing for above...

Vizier · September 2014

FC mechanics needs a drastic overhaul. ESO says they are doing something about it.

I think I heard something about player collision being considered.

Bolt Escape is getting an cap limit.

Seems there will be some effective changes coming up. I hope sooner rather than later. Those three things would save PvP.

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

Player Collision COULD be a possible as in one sense it will increase server stress but at the same time could reduce the stress we are already causing to create balance that produces ....I wouldn't say lag free but greatly reduced lag. Trial and error attempt couldn't hurt I guess where the game is simply unplayable after its initiated till they can remove it just as fast as they add it.

Xallus · September 2014

I agree there should be a death penalty, something simple like 1 minute reduced stats and unable to use siege. As far as player collision, I think it would only work if only opposite factions collide with you, as collision with your own faction opens up a giant door for trolls.

Shaun98ca2 · September 2014

Xallus wrote: »

I agree there should be a death penalty, something simple like 1 minute reduced stats and unable to use siege. As far as player collision, I think it would only work if only opposite factions collide with you, as collision with your own faction opens up a giant door for trolls.

Actually the fix was collision for your own faction.

But your right trolling would be an issue with that.....maybe a push mechanic where players collide but push each other.

bitaken · September 2014

I appreciate the feedback from the player base. If you have not seen this done it's literally flags flipped before ANY guards die and it really doesn't seem to matter how many defenders are on or around the flag. It's like 50+ from one faction stack a flag and the thing just flips. I had all 14 of my group within range of the front flag of Ash and running oils / generating ultimates (we had 5 banners down and soaked the area in negates) and the flag just flipped yellow with all of us within range of the flag. I would not be so asinine as to think any faction is NOT guilty of doing this if it is possible for them.

As I was thinking about this I thought of a potential solution. If there is 1 defender in the range of the flag - or one NPC alive - the flag will NOT start to turn. This would be a slight advantage to the defending team, but would allow for proper defense using oils, ultimate co-ordination and other anti personal siege on flag points while the enemy "lag bomb" gets melted by the smaller defending force.

Right now it seems as soon as the flag starts to turn and 50+ from one faction start to turn it it's an instantaneous flip until you wipe them. While you have a small window before the keep flips to kill them with proper ulti stacking and oil usage it still gives them a massive advantage when that many people bum-rush and you have to fight the lag to get things rolling.

I still think a 30 second res sickness would be enough of a penalty for the defense / offensive recovery window and make things a lot more interesting in keep battles. I don't think camps need to go away - but they are too instant back to fight as it is.

Skwor · September 2014

Xallus wrote: »

I agree there should be a death penalty, something simple like 1 minute reduced stats and unable to use siege. As far as player collision, I think it would only work if only opposite factions collide with you, as collision with your own faction opens up a giant door for trolls.

I keep seeing this from a few and I hope this NEVER happens.

Seriously a death penalty is the worst idea. Why is anyone suggesting a game mechanic that stops you from playing for 30 to 60 seconds? I pay to play not be stuck in a "you cannot play lockout." We need to encourage more active play not less, any idea that recommends stopping play should be a non starter as a fix.

We just need FC's fixed to stop death porting, that will go a long way to solve the issues without a death "stop playing for a minute" penalty. Given how easy it is to die in this game plus the excessive amount of CC that already stops you from playing we do not need a hard 1 minute lockout on death.

Skwor · September 2014

bitaken wrote: »

...

I still think a 30 second res sickness would be enough of a penalty for the defense / offensive recovery window and make things a lot more interesting in keep battles. I don't think camps need to go away - but they are too instant back to fight as it is.

Ugh NO please, let's not stop people from playing, instead why don't we make camps much more easy to destroy and limit the re-spawn to the camp radius on the map.

Agrippa_Invisus · September 2014

Death penalties are simply that, penalties for failure. With no failure state drawback, it's utterly beneficial to the dying player to run headlong into the fight as respawning gives them all their resources back.

Rush in -> Expend all resources -> Die -> Repeat

That's not good gameplay. That's zerging.

Rune_Relic · September 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Problem is the spells themselves are causing the lag.

Your typical healing springs you cast that in a group of 100+ people the system has to quickly and instantly check the health of all 100+ members and decide which 6 people get the heal.

Add in additional combat and that's where your lag is coming from.

Maybe removing caps might quicken the check as now all it has to do is simply heal everybody in range, but im quite certain SOMEBDOY is going to figure out how to lock up the system.

Lets say we remove caps....ok now your BEST class in-game would be Templar as they can heal 3 people with a fairly decent range with no aiming required.

This would now cause new lag being spammed as you have X people in range during combat and the system has to check who needs the heal.

Damage/heal per cell = 1 person /m2
Have 10 people in a cell casting same spell....drop 9 calculations.
Server load eliminated.
Zerg damage crippled
Zerg heal crippled.

bitaken · September 2014

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Rush in -> Expend all resources -> Die -> Repeat

That's not good gameplay. That's zerging.

It's Zerging when an entire faction is at one keep and crawling on the walls to cover for forward camps, and still has enough to send 50+ to the front and back flags. The issue is not zerging per se - it's the fact that the 100 people charging flags and dying to 30 defenders using oils, ultimate drops and synergy based group abilities to defeat the 100 people - can re-stack the flag with all 100 without a death penalty in basically zero time. While the defenders are recovering mana/stam and constantly taking damage from enemy siege and having to tightly manage their resources the 100 just keep dying rinse and repeat until they wear down the defenders.

And you're right my friend, that's not good game play.

Cody · September 2014

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

I'm almost wondering if they should buff guards to v10 to stay competitive. I seen too many scenarios where it doesn't matter how many sieges shields and heals are up the enemy just bumrushes the flag, or worse stealthers pluck off the guard from redonkulous range before anyone knows what's going on. (If anyone plays Haderus KC LM you know what I'm talking about).

this would make it impossible to take keeps in the non-vet only campaign. This cant be done:(

smee_z · September 2014

Just out of the box thinking. Make the camps visible even to opposing factions so some effort needed to defend or take them out to stop the ridiculous steady flow of combatants.

Monsoon · September 2014

GFBStarWars wrote: »

Make camp group only and not visible on map if you are not in group, only group member that died while in group get the chance to respawn, if u die with another group you cant use that camp.

Probably the worst ever idea in the history of video games and MMO. So now in order to play you have to be grouped? What? Why not also have the opposite mechanic then? In order to use X you can t be grouped. Hey can t use the transit system if you are grouped.

You can not dictate how people play...what does having to be grouped means when you are fighting someone one on one?

Worst ever idea that shows very little forethought

Monsoon · September 2014

Imagine Cyrodiil with friendly fire and you being able to be hit by your team's siege. Imagine the extremely skilled players spammin streak+firerings+swarm killing their own team.

A campaign with friendly fire would be totally awesome where you just can t spam sh*t you have to be carefull. Don t stand in the red circle, don t spam damage abilities and only focus fire... could be fun

RedTalon · September 2014

They really need to add some skills that increase tactics like trapping keep walls for when the keep is capture all the walls of the keep explode and have to be built, doors to.

Need to be more methods to slow zergs down, maybe being able to dig and in this case place long term traps that kill people if they don't take time to disarm them. Still would need to be replaced, but some sort of long term fire rune or the like placed at some points that don't have an aoe cap and a decent radias would keep people from not using this tactic has much.

Sounds odd but first thing that comes to mind, traps and the like more then we have now for a skill line. Wouldn't be the first war to use these metholds just need a magical spin, also oiling flieds in front of keeps for when the horde moves in light it on fire and watc everything burn for a few seconds allies, siege weapons and foes.

Desdemonte · September 2014

bitaken wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Rush in -> Expend all resources -> Die -> Repeat

That's not good gameplay. That's zerging.

It's Zerging when an entire faction is at one keep and crawling on the walls to cover for forward camps, and still has enough to send 50+ to the front and back flags. The issue is not zerging per se - it's the fact that the 100 people charging flags and dying to 30 defenders using oils, ultimate drops and synergy based group abilities to defeat the 100 people - can re-stack the flag with all 100 without a death penalty in basically zero time. While the defenders are recovering mana/stam and constantly taking damage from enemy siege and having to tightly manage their resources the 100 just keep dying rinse and repeat until they wear down the defenders.

And you're right my friend, that's not good game play.

That's how AD finally got Emp last night on Thorn.....