Fixing Bat Swarm.

Soloeus · September 2014

The Problem: Bat Swarm and its morphs allow too much damage output, drain too much life and this needs fixed. It is non-directional, it moves with you, and it lets you use other abilities/potions while active.

The Solution: Isn't a nerf to Batswarm. While it would amuse some haters if Bat Swarm were directional, had a shorter radius or remained in place, these would only make Bat Swarm worthless. What we need is to have Batswarm prevent you from using other abilities while is active (Bolt Escape, Dark Talons, etc).

Bat Swarm is an Ultimate. It should be powerful. It shouldn't enable Godmode. The best fix is to make it so bat swarm is "Channeled." You can move. But you cannot use your other abilities while its active.

There.

Fixed.

(Edit: I say this as a Level 10 Vamp on multiple characters).

heyguyslol · September 2014

lol another QQ post about Vamps. Man if only I had a dollar for every one of these posts I see you guys make I would be a rich man. Bats are fine learn to move = dodge roll or bolt esc if your a sorc either works just fine dont just stand their and take dmg or u will die, lol.

Soloeus · September 2014

No, you are the one QQ. I am a vamp stating a fact. If I had a penny for every idiot that flammed valid threads, I could have retired 12 years ago.

Since you have nothing to add to the thread and you are just trolling, goodbye and welcome to my ignore list.

THE END.

CPTproton · September 2014

Instead of nerfing Bat Swarm how a bout a new skill line that maybe has some ranged attack that does bonus damage to Vamps? A crossbow would be cool!

heyguyslol · September 2014

CPTproton wrote: »

Instead of nerfing Bat Swarm how a bout a new skill line that maybe has some ranged attack that does bonus damage to Vamps? A crossbow would be cool!

We do have a skill line, its called Fighters Guild.

Soloeus · September 2014

CPTproton wrote: »

Instead of nerfing Bat Swarm how a bout a new skill line that maybe has some ranged attack that does bonus damage to Vamps? A crossbow would be cool!

This isn't a nerf, its a fix. Batswarm shouldn't let you use other abilities while active.

Also, most vamps are found in Zergballs and thus are almost never targetable by AoE or Silver Shards. I don't want Anti-Vamp mechanisms, I just want the Vamp Mechanisms to be balanced.

CPTproton · September 2014

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

CPTproton wrote: »

Instead of nerfing Bat Swarm how a bout a new skill line that maybe has some ranged attack that does bonus damage to Vamps? A crossbow would be cool!

We do have a skill line, its called Fighters Guild.

Oh man. I know. That was the joke

digitalprowlerb14_ESO · September 2014

bat swarm is one of the weakest ultimates in the game. you can cast and use other abilities while all ultimates are active. You just haven't played enough characters or enjoy the very poor pvp if you have an issue with bat swarm. it barely does 1100 dmg in pvp on all my toons and most of them wear light, medium, or a mix.

but really I'd rather they fix it so I could use it in pve for the aesthetics on my v12 caster NB. I cannot even use the skill in combat on that character. It bugs and the skill is just unable to be used. can't /reloadui during combat, can't relog, have repaired the game, exhausted every available option to try and self fix it to no end. I have a dual wield Vet4 that uses a few similar skills on her bars and bat swarm works fine. the only difference between the two toons is one uses dual wield and the other uses resto staff. That is the only thing I can imagine that is doing it.

Soloeus · September 2014

digitalprowlerb14_ESO wrote: »

bat swarm is one of the weakest ultimates in the game. you can cast and use other abilities while all ultimates are active. You just haven't played enough characters or enjoy the very poor pvp if you have an issue with bat swarm. it barely does 1100 dmg in pvp on all my toons and most of them wear light, medium, or a mix.

but really I'd rather they fix it so I could use it in pve for the aesthetics on my v12 caster NB. I cannot even use the skill in combat on that character. It bugs and the skill is just unable to be used. can't /reloadui during combat, can't relog, have repaired the game, exhausted every available option to try and self fix it to no end. I have a dual wield Vet4 that uses a few similar skills on her bars and bat swarm works fine. the only difference between the two toons is one uses dual wield and the other uses resto staff. That is the only thing I can imagine that is doing it.

I have multiple vets, so keep my name out of your mouth. You don't know my experiences or how I play.

It often does over 1.2k, there is often more than 2 people doing it at the same time while spamming Dark Talons and Stuns.

And a lot of abilities cancel if you try to do something else with it active. Soul Assault is one, Templars have a few that force you to actually stand still while channeling.

TRIP233 · September 2014

There is nothing to fix. If you don't want to get hit by it then move out of the way. There are other abilities that allow you to use potions or move while the ability is active. Therefor this is a QQ. There is no need for another nerf.

Troponin · September 2014

lol Everyone missed CPT's sarcasm.

Become a vampire and look at the damage done. Then look at the damage done by other class Ultimates. You will see something very interesting; Bat swarm's damage is really nothing great. Soul Strike puts out a TON more damage, and most other AoEs do around the same damage, if not, more.

What makes bat swarm such a PITA, is that it can be sometimes hard to see and notice that someone cast it and, it's mobile. Then you get 2+ people using it and you don't realize it until you're dead. I am willing to get if they make it easier to see, that will increase your survival rate. The second thing I wiould advise, is to make it slow the character by 25%, maybe 50%, but not more than 50% or it could end up making it silly to even use at that point.

akray21 · September 2014

Bat swarm is fine... There are at least 2 better ultimates in the game... DK standard, and VoB.

Just get out of the way of the bats and you are fine. CC the bats, BE away, dodge... Many options. Bats are fine.

digitalprowlerb14_ESO · September 2014

[/quote]I have multiple vets, so keep my name out of your mouth. You don't know my experiences or how I play.

It often does over 1.2k, there is often more than 2 people doing it at the same time while spamming Dark Talons and Stuns.

And a lot of abilities cancel if you try to do something else with it active. Soul Assault is one, Templars have a few that force you to actually stand still while channeling.[/quote]

who knew that 2 is the new "a lot"

"Blessed is the man who, has nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordy evidence of the fact."

Soloeus · September 2014

Soul Strike is single target, and requires Channeling so it does more damage. Most often, when using it I had it broken or disrupted or I would be forced to move out of a Standard which cancelled the remaining effect.

Standard remains in place and doesn't Life Leech.

Vamp Bats life leeches, follows the user, allows the user to spam other abilities (dark talons, bolt escape, stuns), and is non-directional.

Samadhi · September 2014

I have played my main Nightblade as both Vampire and Non-Vampire.

Devouring Swarm is so powerful that I do not bother to use other Ultimates when I am a vampire.

If I am in PvP and I cast Veil of Blades while AoE spamming in a group, it might help me survive a bit longer. People can dodge out of it and I lose much of the benefit from casting it.
If I am in PvP and I cast Devouring Swarm while AoE spamming in a group, I do not really have to worry about my Health until my Magicka runs out. If anyone tries to move out of it, I just tap a gap closer and they keep on taking damage.

The combination of low cost, solid damage, excellent healing, and mobility while casting makes this skill golden.

I would really like it if Nightblade's Veil of Blades cost as little as Stage 4 Swarm does though. Especially since it can't move.
Or, I'd really like it if Soul Tether healed and damaged as reliably as Swarm; someone blocks the Stun they block the healing tether and I blew 150 Ultimate that would have been better spent on Swarm.

I do not have issue with Bat Swarm though; it is quite powerful but it is also one of only two Ultimates in the game that require the character to actively have negative effects/stat debuffs impacting him or her in order to be cast.
Werewolf is the other, but I do not wish to see Vampire taken down to the level of Werewolf; Werewolf just needs to be far better for its costs.

Kewljag_66_ESO · September 2014

Its not so much the damage of batswarm that is the problem but everything else you can do while using it. You can block or spam impulse or other abilities. you cannot do that with soul strike. Unlike VOB and Standard, With batswarm you can move it around and chase your target. Dodge roll doesnt help much if they follow you. BE is the only effective escape tool against it but its only for 1 class.

I went vamp for a bit and bat swarm is unmatched, I almost felt like i was cheating when i used it.

I dont want to see it nerfd, just balanced. It real simple to balance, eigther make it a focus skill so you cant block / attack or use other abilities at teh same time. OR make it so you cant move it like standard and VOBs.

But in its current state it is hurting Cyrodiil. You see this ability spammed so much by so many people that it makes it not even fun out there.

PlagueMonk · September 2014

Samadhi wrote: »

I have played my main Nightblade as both Vampire and Non-Vampire.

Devouring Swarm is so powerful that I do not bother to use other Ultimates when I am a vampire.

If I am in PvP and I cast Veil of Blades while AoE spamming in a group, it might help me survive a bit longer. People can dodge out of it and I lose much of the benefit from casting it.
If I am in PvP and I cast Devouring Swarm while AoE spamming in a group, I do not really have to worry about my Health until my Magicka runs out. If anyone tries to move out of it, I just tap a gap closer and they keep on taking damage.

The combination of low cost, solid damage, excellent healing, and mobility while casting makes this skill golden.

I would really like it if Nightblade's Veil of Blades cost as little as Stage 4 Swarm does though. Especially since it can't move.
Or, I'd really like it if Soul Tether healed and damaged as reliably as Swarm; someone blocks the Stun they block the healing tether and I blew 150 Ultimate that would have been better spent on Swarm.

This is the correct answer. Claiming otherwise is simply a ploy to divert attention AWAY from it so they can keep this ridiculous ability as is.

ShadoPanauin · September 2014

How about... don't stand in the swarms and melt them with ranged attacks? They rely on feeding on you.. don't stand in it and single target them down.. they melt. GG.

Soloeus · September 2014

ShadoPanauin wrote: »

How about... don't stand in the swarms and melt them with ranged attacks? They rely on feeding on you.. don't stand in it and single target them down.. they melt. GG.

Person Blame doesn't address the actual problem. Nobody is "complaining" that they can't roll dodge. However we are stating there is a problem with how powerful Bat Swarm and its morphs are.

I am likewise not blaming people who use this Ultimate in combination with Talons, Leash, Encase, Gap Closers, and other effects for the problem. They are simply doing what they should. They "can" use other abilities while Bat Swarm is active, so they should.

My stance, is that the Ultimate by itself is not op. However, it becomes OP when you can run around at the speed of lightning, gap closers, leash, talons, encase, heal with potions + abilities, while the effect of Bat Swarm is in place.

There is another consideration:

When people make personal attacks against others, it shows they don't have anything to add. Your comment is designed to portray "complainers" as bad players who shouldn't be listened to. The ones who shouldn't be listened to are the ones who jump into threads to make personal attacks against others.

Durham · September 2014

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

lol another QQ post about Vamps. Man if only I had a dollar for every one of these posts I see you guys make I would be a rich man. Bats are fine learn to move = dodge roll or bolt esc if your a sorc either works just fine dont just stand their and take dmg or u will die, lol.

A. How about when you dont see it because it never loaded or took 2 secs render...
B. How about when you are hit with 3 or more at once only seeing 1 swarm.
C. How about trying to dodge roll from bats when its from your alliance...

I think bats is more of a graphics issue... people need some way to tell if its hostile.. same issue with standard...

Lately i have been hit with multiple bats together with sorc streak and pulsar = insta death...

PlagueMonk · September 2014

Durham wrote: »

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

lol another QQ post about Vamps. Man if only I had a dollar for every one of these posts I see you guys make I would be a rich man. Bats are fine learn to move = dodge roll or bolt esc if your a sorc either works just fine dont just stand their and take dmg or u will die, lol.

A. How about when you dont see it because it never loaded or took 2 secs render...
B. How about when you are hit with 3 or more at once only seeing 1 swarm.
C. How about trying to dodge roll from bats when its from your alliance...

I think bats is more of a graphics issue... people need some way to tell if its hostile.. same issue with standard...

Lately i have been hit with multiple bats together with sorc streak and pulsar = insta death...

lol, I can't begin to tell you the amount of times I have either been hesitant to attack a DK because I didn't know if that SoM was an enemy's or I wasted stamina not knowing if the bats were enemy generated or not. The only way to truly know is to stay and see if you take damage which is not an optimum choice so I err on the side of caution.

I have ALWAYS thought that if its a friendly SoM it should glow green and maybe bats should have a green tinge to it also if friendly?

tordr86b16_ESO · September 2014

CPTproton wrote: »

This isn't a nerf, its a fix. Batswarm shouldn't let you use other abilities while active.

And every other Ultimate in the game should not be nerfed in the same way? Do you know how asinine this sounds?

MornaBaine · September 2014

Durham wrote: »

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

lol another QQ post about Vamps. Man if only I had a dollar for every one of these posts I see you guys make I would be a rich man. Bats are fine learn to move = dodge roll or bolt esc if your a sorc either works just fine dont just stand their and take dmg or u will die, lol.

A. How about when you dont see it because it never loaded or took 2 secs render...
B. How about when you are hit with 3 or more at once only seeing 1 swarm.
C. How about trying to dodge roll from bats when its from your alliance...

I think bats is more of a graphics issue... people need some way to tell if its hostile.. same issue with standard...

Lately i have been hit with multiple bats together with sorc streak and pulsar = insta death...

And I just spent a good part of my evening getting turned to ash. Are bats OP? I honestly don't know. But if the Devs decide it requires balancing after doing some testing then I'll be okay with that. Things change in MMOs and I had to learn to live with disappointment when my Necromancer could no longer make people just die tired while trying to run away from her in Age of Conan. That was a drag but I found other ways to enjoy the game. The thing is, there's ALWAYS going to be some class, or combination of skills, that is going to wreck you. And YOU are always going to be able to consistently wreck another class and/or set of skills. That's how MMOs work. That IS balance.

However, I COMPLETELY agree with you on the graphics issue. Friendly fire bats should definitely look different than the bats that are coming to kill you! LOL And it would really be pretty easy fro them to do. Instead of the swarm having a nice red glow, when cast by someone on YOUR side, the bats should have a nice blue glow instead. Then you'd know you want to STAY with those bats and not run away to just get killed on the fringes of the fight. And yeah, you should also be able to tell if there's more than one bat swarm going on in an area. I'm really not sure why we can't.

Gorthax · September 2014

I have a remedy for bar swarm. It is the PERFECT counter.....NEGATE. problem solved. Yea sure it is only for sorcs but in pvp it only takes one sorc with negate to put an end to the ulti.

Lorgend · September 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

The Problem: Bat Swarm and its morphs allow too much damage output, drain too much life and this needs fixed. It is non-directional, it moves with you, and it lets you use other abilities/potions while active.

The Solution: Isn't a nerf to Batswarm. While it would amuse some haters if Bat Swarm were directional, had a shorter radius or remained in place, these would only make Bat Swarm worthless. What we need is to have Batswarm prevent you from using other abilities while is active (Bolt Escape, Dark Talons, etc).

Bat Swarm is an Ultimate. It should be powerful. It shouldn't enable Godmode. The best fix is to make it so bat swarm is "Channeled." You can move. But you cannot use your other abilities while its active.

There.

Fixed.

(Edit: I say this as a Level 10 Vamp on multiple characters).

sorry bro but then anyone will just bash you set you off balance and there you go. bat swarm useless.^^

GaldorP · September 2014

In a direct comparison with the Dragonknight Standard it should be blatantly obvious for everyone that Bat Swarm is too strong:

Bat Swarm has higher dps*, it moves with the user and has a higher radius than the standard**; it costs a lot less ultimate than the standard; it has the best morphs of any damage ability in the game: 100% of the damage dealt regained as Health or true invisibility (=total immunity to any attacks that require a target) for the full duration of the ultimate. Imagine if the Dragonknight Standard had these morphs...

The best way to fix it, in my opinion, would be to increase the cost of Bat Swarm to 300-350 so it can't be chained so easily anymore.

Unfortunately the developpers love vampires, so Cyrodiil will probably stay a home to Twilight fans for a while.

* A full duration bat swarm will do 2k damage on a VR 12 character in full legendary gear with 700 Crit Resistance from Impenetrable and Spell Resistance over soft cap (Spell Resistance doesn't matter at all in PvP at the moment, unfortunately, because the Sharpened trait is broken). Burst damage is very important in PvP so the higher dps of Bat Swarm makes a big difference.
** A single doge-roll will not get you out of the radius; if the vampire moves in the same direction you do, you will have to take the full damage unless you're a sorcerer who can bolt-escape out of it; due to PvP latency issues, an enemy Bat Swarm will often have ticked twice on you already when you see it on your screen.

Syndy · September 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

CPTproton wrote: »

This isn't a nerf, its a fix. Batswarm shouldn't let you use other abilities while active.

And every other Ultimate in the game should not be nerfed in the same way? Do you know how asinine this sounds?

Well if my Nova, or a DKs standard, or Veil of Blades, or Negate actually moved with the caster you might be on to something, but they don't... There is no way to get out of one unless you are a sorc. If the Vamp wants to follow you, you will take full dmg from the ult as well as any skill the Vamp is casting while the ult is going.

When I drop a Nova, you can dodge roll out of it, and boom, you are safe from it unless you run through it again. There is some escape, The issue I have with Bat Swarm is that the user can follow you with it while using other abilities as well... This is not the case for other AoE Ultimates. You drop them on the ground and they are there, (granted DKs can pick up their standard). If you take full dmg from the ult and the player that casted the ult, it is on you. You could have dodge rolled or ran out of the Ult. Not to mention these other Ults cost significantly more than Bat Swarm...

If Batswarm was like other AoE ults where it was stationary, I would have no issue with it, even with it having such a low cost.

Pseudonym · September 2014

Most people want to be able to combat vampires without equipping skills that combat vampires. We have a whole skill line for dealing with vampires. That is more than enough.

If there was a whole skill line dedicated to specifically killing Dragon Knights, there would be an uproar, yet here we are, with a tree that's designed to make these critters lives hard, yet it somehow still isn't enough.

Here, I'll help you out.

Go into your Fighters Guild skill line and learn Circle of Protection.
Morph it into Turn Undead.
The next time you see a swarm of bats, put down Turn Undead and hold down block.

It's really that simple. I'm no expert on PvP, but this has worked for me on numerous occasions; and since I always have Camouflaged Hunter on my bow bar, I'm actually eager to find those pesky vampires, because they're easy kills.

Syndy · September 2014

Pseudonym wrote: »

Most people want to be able to combat vampires without equipping skills that combat vampires. We have a whole skill line for dealing with vampires. That is more than enough.

If there was a whole skill line dedicated to specifically killing Dragon Knights, there would be an uproar, yet here we are, with a tree that's designed to make these critters lives hard, yet it somehow still isn't enough.

Here, I'll help you out.
Go into your Fighters Guild skill line and learn Circle of Protection.

Morph it into Turn Undead.

The next time you see a swarm of bats, put down Turn Undead and hold down block.

It's really that simple. I'm no expert on PvP, but this has worked for me on numerous occasions; and since I always have Camouflaged Hunter on my bow bar, I'm actually eager to find those pesky vampires, because they're easy kills.

If it granted no CC immunity you might be on to something. Also Vampires are not a class, they are an optional skill line, so your first point of trying to be clever is like comparing apples to oranges.

When you created your character, you did not choose to be a DK vampire, you chose to be a DK, then later a vampire, hence it is an option.

Also holding down block is probably the worst thing you could do, because after the swarm the Vampire is probably at 100% hp, and now you are out of stamina, congrats, you will now be CC'd to death.

I also like the way that it is balanced for vampires to say here, use these 3 skills in tandem to try to combat our 1 broken ability...

1 ability on your bar should not take 3 abilities on someone elses bar to counter, that is not balance, that is broken. But I am not a math genius.

Also the weakness to fire can be negated by just going into mistform when you get hit by a fire siege engine or fire dot, and as a bonus if the person does not have you target locked, he can't attack you with abilities either...

Soloeus · September 2014

Vamps aren't really optional when they overpower nonvamps by so much that you either vamp or don't pvp.

You are forced to vamp. You can choose not too, but you won't be as successful.

The problem, again, is that Vamps can use other abilities while Bat Swarm is active. Bat Swarm should require channeling.

1. It moves with the caster, using gap closers.
2. Sometimes it becomes invisible with Caster when they use speed/invis potion.
3. It is nondirectional.
4. It has the biggest radius of all abilities.
5. other abilities can be used while it is in effect.
6. It drains the life of all players, restoring more HP than you can ever take in damage.

The combination of all 6 of these things makes it gamebreaking OP.

This is without considering Bat Swarm is normally deployed by the "Zerg Ball" where 20 people pack in together. This makes the vamp impossible to target with Silver Shards or Fire.

Gigglesnort · September 2014

other abilities can be used while it is in effect

.

Can't you use abilities with other ultimates?
So, what people are saying, whether intended to or not, is the use of other abilities while using an ultimate shouldn't be allowed for all ultimates?